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  34. <title>Brandi Morin: The Apache stronghold standing in the way of a massive copper mine</title>
  35. <link>https://therealnews.com/brandi-morin-the-apache-stronghold-standing-in-the-way-of-a-massive-copper-mine</link>
  37. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Brandi Morin]]></dc:creator>
  38. <pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2024 20:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
  39. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  40. <category><![CDATA[Climate Crisis]]></category>
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  42. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  43. <category><![CDATA[Canada]]></category>
  44. <category><![CDATA[Mining]]></category>
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  48. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="743" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?fit=1024%2C743&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="" decoding="async" fetchpriority="high" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?w=2284&amp;ssl=1 2284w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=300%2C218&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=1024%2C743&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=768%2C558&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=1536%2C1115&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=2048%2C1487&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=1200%2C871&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=1568%2C1138&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=2000%2C1452&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=400%2C290&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?fit=1024%2C743&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>“If they want to remove me, they're going to have to remove me, forcefully.”]]></description>
  49. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="743" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?fit=1024%2C743&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?w=2284&amp;ssl=1 2284w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=300%2C218&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=1024%2C743&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=768%2C558&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=1536%2C1115&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=2048%2C1487&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=1200%2C871&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=1568%2C1138&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=2000%2C1452&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?resize=400%2C290&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Brandi-Morin-Apache-Stronghold-Resolution-Copper.jpg?fit=1024%2C743&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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  51. <p class="has-small-font-size"><em>This story originally appeared in Ricochet on <a href="https://ricochet.media/indigenous/brandi-morin-the-apache-stronghold-standing-in-the-way-of-a-massive-copper-mine/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">May 13, 2024</a>.</em></p>
  52. </div></div>
  53.  
  54.  
  55.  
  56. <p class="has-drop-cap">In the heart of the Arizona high desert lies a battle for the soul of the land.</p>
  57.  
  58.  
  59.  
  60. <p>The ancient, sacred grounds of Apache Native territory are under threat from a looming giant — a massive copper mine that promises riches for the locals, and a pathway to the so-called green transition.&nbsp;</p>
  61.  
  62.  
  63.  
  64. <p>But, as is often the case, it comes at a cost.&nbsp;</p>
  65.  
  66.  
  67.  
  68. <p>The San Carlos Apache tribe calls it Chi’chil Bildagoteel, English speakers call it Oak Flat. It sits on a mountainous plateau within a 17.3-kilometer oasis in the Tonto National Forest.&nbsp;</p>
  69.  
  70.  
  71.  
  72. <p>Rio Tinto and BHP, two of the world’s biggest mining companies, have staked their claim here through a joint venture called Resolution Copper. For over 10 years they’ve been lobbying governments for the right to build a colossal mine that would cover roughly 7,000 acres of surface area, and extend more than a mile into the ground.&nbsp;</p>
  73.  
  74.  
  75.  
  76. <figure class="wp-block-image"><img decoding="async" src="https://i0.wp.com/ricochet.media/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-12-at-6.00.04-PM-1397x1080.png?resize=780%2C603&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-17227" data-recalc-dims="1"/><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Dr. Wendsler Nosie Sr. overlooks the looming ‘evil’ of the Resolution Copper mine threatning to destroy his sacred territory. | Photo by Brandi Morin</figcaption></figure>
  77.  
  78.  
  79.  
  80. <p>The only thing that stands in their way is the resistance of the Apache Stronghold, a nonprofit community organization of Natives and non-Natives uniting to counter ongoing colonization, defend holy sites and protect freedom of religion, which was created to protect Chi’chil Bildagoteel.&nbsp;</p>
  81.  
  82.  
  83.  
  84. <p>For generations, the Apache have revered the life-giving medicine that thrives here through various species of plants, animals, and Emory oak trees. Some of the oak trees here are over 1,000 years old, and provide the Apache’s most coveted ceremonial item and food source — acorn flour.&nbsp;</p>
  85.  
  86.  
  87.  
  88. <p>The tribe, whose holy people have always lived nearby, believes the natural springs flowing beneath Chi’chil Bildagoteel provide healing powers that can only be found here.</p>
  89.  
  90.  
  91.  
  92. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-embed-handler wp-block-embed-embed-handler"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  93. <iframe title="The Apache stronghold standing in the way of a copper mine that would desecrate a sacred site" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hZucwkizByk?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  94. </div><figcaption class="wp-element-caption"><em><strong>Editors’ note: Brandi and cinematographer Geordie Day also produced a short video report on this story, and their trip to Oak Flat. You can watch it here, or on YouTube.</strong></em></figcaption></figure>
  95.  
  96.  
  97.  
  98. <p>“Understand we’re sitting in a holy place, in a sacred place. This is where God touched the world for us with who we are, when it comes to how we protect Mother Earth, not only as a human, but through the spirit of why we have, in Apache, we call them Gaan, but in the English, they call them angels,” said Dr. Wendsler Nosie Sr., an Apache elder and community leader.&nbsp;</p>
  99.  
  100.  
  101.  
  102. <p>“And those angels live here today. Our ceremony, called Na’i, is a repeat of how creation was created, and how the angels brought us to the surface to see God’s work, and to live in the moment. These are corridors that God created for us, and it’s no different than parts of the Bible you would find about the beginning. These are real critical places for us and I guess in the White language, our religion.”</p>
  103.  
  104.  
  105.  
  106. <p>Nosie has been living at Chi’chil Bildagoteel for over two years in a bid to protect it from the proposed mine. He leads the Apache Stronghold.</p>
  107.  
  108.  
  109.  
  110. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote><p>Nearby is Apache Leap, where Apache warriors jumped over a cliff to their deaths rather than surrender to the U.S. Cavalry in 1870.</p></blockquote></figure>
  111.  
  112.  
  113.  
  114. <p>Resolution Copper is owned by two foreign entities, Rio Tinto (which already has an atrocious track record for violating Indigenous rights, after blasting away an ancient Indigenous holy site in Australia in 2020), and BHP, the world’s biggest mining company. BHP also has a dark history of forcible displacement of Indigenous and afro-descendant communities as well as catastrophic environmental damage.&nbsp;</p>
  115.  
  116.  
  117.  
  118. <p>The mine will use about 250 billion gallons of water over 40 years to process ore in an already drought-stricken area. It will also use the water to help store toxic tailings in ponds that will stretch for miles. The company’s rhetoric argues that America needs copper, but it hasn’t yet said how it plans to keep that copper in the United States.&nbsp;</p>
  119.  
  120.  
  121.  
  122. <p>It is said that meeting climate goals for vehicle electrification requires an urgent ramp-up in copper production, <a href="https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/half-of-all-copper-mining-is-at-drought-risk-with-climate-change-1.2066715" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">despite</a> harmful impacts to land, water and communities. The International Energy Agency <a href="https://www.iea.org/reports/the-role-of-critical-minerals-in-clean-energy-transitions/mineral-requirements-for-clean-energy-transitions" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reports</a> that production needs to triple by 2040. </p>
  123.  
  124.  
  125.  
  126. <figure class="wp-block-image"><img decoding="async" src="https://i0.wp.com/ricochet.media/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-12-at-5.58.37-PM-1288x1080.png?resize=780%2C654&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-17225" data-recalc-dims="1"/><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Cousins Wendslyn Hooke (left) and Lozen Brown-Lopez of the San Carlos Apache Indian Reservation take a break between dancing on their ancestral territories. | Photo by Brandi Morin</figcaption></figure>
  127.  
  128.  
  129.  
  130. <p>Nevertheless, Apache Stronghold has been waging their fight against these giants in the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. In late April, the court rejected an appeal of a lower court’s ruling from 2021 that found the mine wouldn’t threaten the First Amendment religious practice rights of the Apache. Now, the group is taking their case to the U.S. Supreme Court.&nbsp;</p>
  131.  
  132.  
  133.  
  134. <p>Chi’chil Bildagoteel was once protected. In 1955, President Dwight D. Eisenhower listed the area on the National Register of Historic Places as a Traditional Cultural Property. That designation stood until 2014, when former U.S. Senator John McCain slipped a rider onto a must-pass National Defense Authorization Act to allow the sale of Oak Flat to Resolution Copper.&nbsp;</p>
  135.  
  136.  
  137.  
  138. <p>The area, where their ancestors lived for thousands of years, holds more than just ceremonial significance to the Apache. During the expansive wars between the Apache, the United States, and Mexico it was part of the San Carlos reservation and served as a prisoner of war camp.&nbsp;</p>
  139.  
  140.  
  141.  
  142. <p>Nearby is Apache Leap, where Apache warriors jumped over a cliff to their deaths rather than surrender to the U.S. Cavalry in 1870.</p>
  143.  
  144.  
  145.  
  146. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote><p>“This is no longer a game of bows and arrows and shooting us physically, but it’s killing our religion, our way of life, and everything from what we do and who we are as a people.”</p></blockquote></figure>
  147.  
  148.  
  149.  
  150. <p>The remaining prisoners of war were rounded up and taken to a valley in the San Carlos reservation. The Apache now refer to it as Hell’s 40 Acres. It’s where Apache clans were imprisoned and killed by the U.S. Cavalry.&nbsp;</p>
  151.  
  152.  
  153.  
  154. <p>“We once roamed all the mountains, and we lived in bands and communities and family,” explained Dr. Lian Bighorse of the San Carlos Apache Tribe Wellness Program. She’s also Nosie’s daughter.&nbsp;</p>
  155.  
  156.  
  157.  
  158. <p>“And now we’re imprisoned on a reservation and a lot of our people have that mentality that that’s our home, that’s where we’re from… but that’s the land we were put on. They said you can’t go any further.”</p>
  159.  
  160.  
  161.  
  162. <p>Up until the 1960s, Apaches from San Carlos weren’t allowed to leave the reservation without the permission of the Indian Agent. Since then, bands like the Chiricahua have been returning to their ancestral homelands, like Oak Flat.&nbsp;</p>
  163.  
  164.  
  165.  
  166. <figure class="wp-block-image"><img decoding="async" src="https://i0.wp.com/ricochet.media/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-12-at-6.02.01-PM-1461x1080.png?resize=780%2C577&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-17229" data-recalc-dims="1"/><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Naelyn Pike, granddaughter of Dr. Wendsler Nosie Sr. at her ancestral Chich’il Bit Dagoteel territories. She says, ‘This is no longer a game of bows and arrows.’ | Photo by Brandi Morin</figcaption></figure>
  167.  
  168.  
  169.  
  170. <p>Local Apache clans still pray at the same mountain nearby where famed Apache warrior Geronimo requested to pray before U.S. Cavalry soldiers hauled him away to Florida in chains.&nbsp;</p>
  171.  
  172.  
  173.  
  174. <p>These lands hold the memories of their forefathers, like Geronimo, Cochise, Victorio, and Mangus Coloradas, and their fight to save their territories from invaders. Now, that cycle is repeating itself with the looming mine.</p>
  175.  
  176.  
  177.  
  178. <p>“When you don’t have a connection to the land, when you don’t know the history of the people, is when that doesn’t matter to you. Just being out here you can feel how beautiful it is and see the scenery and feel the wind, you can see the clouds. All those things that establish a connection, and when you don’t even take those moments and all you see is how you can profit off of things, when it’s that money and power and greed — it’s an illusion… if you call America your home, how can you just destroy it that way?”</p>
  179.  
  180.  
  181.  
  182. <figure class="wp-block-image"><img decoding="async" src="https://i0.wp.com/ricochet.media/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-12-at-6.03.25-PM-1262x1080.png?resize=780%2C668&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-17231" data-recalc-dims="1"/><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Dr. Lian Bighorse, daughter of Dr. Wendsler Nosie Sr. stands near the former Hells 40 Acres valley on the San Carlos Apache Indian Reservation. | Photo by Brandi Morin</figcaption></figure>
  183.  
  184.  
  185.  
  186. <p>This is not only a tribal fight, but a family one. Multiple generations of the Nosie family have been at the forefront of protecting Chi’chil Bildagoteel. Nosie’s granddaughter, 27-year-old Naelyn Pike, has travelled with him across the United States to speak out against the mine.&nbsp;</p>
  187.  
  188.  
  189.  
  190. <p>“This is no longer a game of bows and arrows and shooting us physically, but it’s killing our religion, our way of life, and everything from what we do and who we are as a people,” said Pike.&nbsp;</p>
  191.  
  192.  
  193.  
  194. <p>“That in itself scares me because it tells me that what I identify with, what I physically feel connected to, my religion, way of life, doesn’t matter and that the federal government can still do this to our people today… It’s the federal government, everything that has been put into place, the systems are working as they should… by design.”</p>
  195.  
  196.  
  197.  
  198. <p>Pike had her coming of age ceremony at another Apache holy site, Mount Graham. Wendsler has been working for decades to protect it from research universities and the Vatican who are trying to expand a massive observatory there.&nbsp;</p>
  199.  
  200.  
  201.  
  202. <p>“I was able to wake up that mountain. And that was a very powerful moment for me,” she pauses to wipe away tears falling on her cheeks.&nbsp;</p>
  203.  
  204.  
  205.  
  206. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote><p>“When the United States comes out with their most critical list of important [resources], you find copper, gold, silver, you find all of that, but you don’t find water and air. It confuses us because as Indian people… But in America, they don’t protect it. They don’t care. They do not care.”</p></blockquote></figure>
  207.  
  208.  
  209.  
  210. <p>“Because as Apache people and as Indigenous people, we’re stewards of the land. We have a power to connect, to have these intimate relations with the Earth. And when that’s forcefully taken away, not only are we hurting as a people, but these places are hurting, too. When I had my ceremony there, I definitely felt the power of my ancestors. I felt the power of the mountain and the animals and there were so many beautiful and powerful experiences that I got to experience because of that fight of my people.”</p>
  211.  
  212.  
  213.  
  214. <p>Pike wants those same experiences for other young women to be preserved.&nbsp;</p>
  215.  
  216.  
  217.  
  218. <p>“It’s reclaiming those spaces and revitalizing our culture, and the government tells us you can only have these ceremonies here on your reservation, but this is not where we come from.”</p>
  219.  
  220.  
  221.  
  222. <p>Reclaiming their ancestral lands, and protecting them from invaders, is dangerous. During the time Nosie’s been living out here, he’s been shot at four different times.</p>
  223.  
  224.  
  225.  
  226. <p>He draws courage from his ancestors, including his late mother who prepared him to combat the evils that arrived on their doorstep over 100 years ago.&nbsp;</p>
  227.  
  228.  
  229.  
  230. <figure class="wp-block-image"><img decoding="async" src="https://i0.wp.com/ricochet.media/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-12-at-5.59.03-PM-1456x1080.png?resize=780%2C579&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-17226" data-recalc-dims="1"/><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Dr. Wendsler Nosie Sr. near a rock wall at Chich’il Bit Dagoteel depicting pictographs drawn by his ancient ancestors. | Photo by Brandi Morin</figcaption></figure>
  231.  
  232.  
  233.  
  234. <p>“(My mother) would say to me that you have to remember that this evil (colonization) already came here a long time ago, before (white people) came here. But the difference here on this side of the world was that there was one drum, one prayer, one circle. So this evil that was destroying on the other side (of the ocean) already came here. But because we’re all intact, it couldn’t penetrate. But it did turn to us and tell us that I’ll be back,” explained Nosie.&nbsp;</p>
  235.  
  236.  
  237.  
  238. <p>“When all these white people came and they were doing all these ugly things to our people, we thought, it was them. And that’s where the evil sits because it started to destroy us, because now Indian people began to act like them. So there’s only a certain number of us that are left and we have to pull our people back and say, ‘you’re doing the same thing they’re doing,’ and you have to teach them that this evil has enslaved them and we have to wake them up.”</p>
  239.  
  240.  
  241.  
  242. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote><p>“These are multi billion-dollar companies. Me and my grandfather, our family, and the people, we don’t have money. We don’t have any means of protecting ourselves.”</p></blockquote></figure>
  243.  
  244.  
  245.  
  246. <p>When word spread that Nosie was being shot at, a Christian organization called Community Peacemaker Teams sent volunteers to be on the ground to help look out for him.&nbsp;</p>
  247.  
  248.  
  249.  
  250. <p>“They’ve (Apache) already been brutalized for centuries really and now here we are with the copper mine and everything else trying to do the same thing and a lot of people are going to get, aside from losing their sacred space, it’s going to poison the water, it’s going to give people cancer at an early age and we’re going to see our land get destroyed here,” said Jeremy Gilchrist, a CPT Volunteer who took two weeks off his job as a meteorologist in North Carolina to be on site.</p>
  251.  
  252.  
  253.  
  254. <p>“Again, you’re going to see Indigenous People suffer once more from the same things they’ve been dealing with for all too long now. I think these corporations see them as vulnerable and an easy target because of all that, and because of their marginalized status, but they’re fighting back and I’m happy to see that.”</p>
  255.  
  256.  
  257.  
  258. <p>Nosie doesn’t do battle with modern day weaponry. He gains his strength through ceremony and prayer. He regularly walks the desert terrain and visits sacred corridors to conduct ceremonies.&nbsp;</p>
  259.  
  260.  
  261.  
  262. <figure class="wp-block-image"><img decoding="async" src="https://i0.wp.com/ricochet.media/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-09-at-2.38.20-PM-1717x1080.png?resize=780%2C491&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-17217" data-recalc-dims="1"/><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">The resistance camp at Chich’il Bit Dagoteel. | Photo by Brando Morin</figcaption></figure>
  263.  
  264.  
  265.  
  266. <p>His daughter Vanessa Nosie, Pike’s mother, visits her dad as often as she can. She cherishes Chi’Chil Bildagoteel and helps in the fight to protect it.&nbsp;</p>
  267.  
  268.  
  269.  
  270. <p>“This is a place where all our teachings come from. This is a place that God has touched, Yossen the Creator,” said Vanessa while sitting at a picnic table in Chi’Chil Bildagoteel, just as the sun was setting.&nbsp;</p>
  271.  
  272.  
  273.  
  274. <p>“This is where I can be a mom and teach my children, my daughters, what it is to be an Apache woman and to carry on the legacy of our people and our family.”</p>
  275.  
  276.  
  277.  
  278. <p>The Nosie family, however, worries for Wendsler’s safety.&nbsp;</p>
  279.  
  280.  
  281.  
  282. <p>“We’re facing the two biggest mining giants in the world; they have the potential to get rid of him. It’s always been me and my dad. He sat down and talked to me, he said, ‘Ness, what better way to die than doing God’s work,’ Vanessa’s voice breaks and tears well up in her eyes.&nbsp;</p>
  283.  
  284.  
  285.  
  286. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote><p>“He’s hated, just because he protects the land, and he prays for the land and the animals and the people that life is important. It’s just not about me and you, and progress. It’s about life.”</p></blockquote></figure>
  287.  
  288.  
  289.  
  290. <p>&nbsp;“I had to… let him go cause when I was here, I wouldn’t leave. I stayed days, a few days and a day longer and said I don’t want to leave you, I’m scared. That was his thing — he said, ‘I know, I know you love me, and I love you too…’”</p>
  291.  
  292.  
  293.  
  294. <p>Pike believes her grandfather is a target because the mining company has made him out to be a troublemaker.&nbsp;</p>
  295.  
  296.  
  297.  
  298. <p>“There are people out there (who are out) to get him. People who work in the mines, because in their eyes, the company is telling them, ‘oh, they’re trying to take your job.’ And that’s not the case. And then you have Resolution Copper, owned by Rio Tinto and BHP.</p>
  299.  
  300.  
  301.  
  302. <p>Rio Tinto being one of the notorious international companies who hurt and kill people in different countries — and we’re up against that. These are multi billion-dollar companies. Me and my grandfather, our family, and the people, we don’t have money. We don’t have any means of protecting ourselves.”</p>
  303.  
  304.  
  305.  
  306. <p>Bighorse says the priorities of those targeting her father are backwards.&nbsp;</p>
  307.  
  308.  
  309.  
  310. <figure class="wp-block-image"><img decoding="async" src="https://i0.wp.com/ricochet.media/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-12-at-6.03.52-PM-1449x1080.png?resize=780%2C581&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-17232" data-recalc-dims="1"/><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Dr. Nosie Sr.’s daughter, grandchildren and other relatives gather at Chich’il Bit Dagoteel. | Photo by Brandi Morin</figcaption></figure>
  311.  
  312.  
  313.  
  314. <p>“He’s hated, just because he protects the land, and he prays for the land and the animals and the people that life is important. It’s just not about me and you, and progress. It’s about life.”</p>
  315.  
  316.  
  317.  
  318. <p>Rio Tinto refused Ricochet’s requests for an interview. The company responded via email stating they had conducted extensive consultation with local tribes and that they’re heavily invested in the future of the residents in the area.&nbsp;</p>
  319.  
  320.  
  321.  
  322. <p>The destiny of this holy place now lies with the Apache Stronghold’s upcoming court case.&nbsp;</p>
  323.  
  324.  
  325.  
  326. <p>Meanwhile, Wendsler says he’ll never leave.&nbsp;</p>
  327.  
  328.  
  329.  
  330. <p>“When the United States comes out with their most critical list of important [resources], you find copper, gold, silver, you find all of that, but you don’t find water and air. It confuses us because as Indian people, we’re like, those are the main two sources that you have to protect, right? But in America, they don’t protect it. They don’t care. They do not care… it’s why I left the reservation two and a half years ago to move back.&nbsp;</p>
  331.  
  332.  
  333.  
  334. <p>“So, if they want to remove me, they’re going to have to remove me, forcefully.”</p>
  335. ]]></content:encoded>
  339. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313827</post-id> </item>
  340. <item>
  341. <title>Goucher College president threatens sanctions on students participating in pro-Palestine encampment</title>
  342. <link>https://therealnews.com/goucher-college-president-threatens-sanctions-on-students-participating-in-pro-palestine-encampment</link>
  344. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Sanya Kamidi]]></dc:creator>
  345. <pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2024 18:48:26 +0000</pubDate>
  346. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  347. <category><![CDATA[Baltimore]]></category>
  348. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  349. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  350. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  351. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  352. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  353. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  354. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  355. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313810</guid>
  356.  
  357. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A protestor writes pro-Palestinian slogans with chalk on the ground as Pro-Palestinian protestors continue protesting at the pro-Palestine encampment of the University of Michigan. Photo by Adam J. Dewey/Anadolu via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The encampment at Goucher College has been quietly carrying on since April 22.]]></description>
  358. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A protestor writes pro-Palestinian slogans with chalk on the ground as Pro-Palestinian protestors continue protesting at the pro-Palestine encampment of the University of Michigan. Photo by Adam J. Dewey/Anadolu via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2152327965-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  359. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:18% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="160" height="122" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?resize=160%2C122&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-312851 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=160&amp;ssl=1 160w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=400&amp;ssl=1 400w" sizes="(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  360. <p style="font-size:18px"><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://baltimorebeat.com/goucher-college-president-threatens-sanctions-on-students-participating-in-pro-palestine-encampment/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Baltimore Beat</a> on May 14, 2024. It is shared here with permission.</em></p>
  361. </div></div>
  362.  
  363.  
  364.  
  365. <p class="has-drop-cap"><em>This story has been updated.</em></p>
  366.  
  367.  
  368.  
  369. <p>At least nine Goucher College students involved in a pro-Palestine encampment on the campus received emails on May 14 placing them on probation and threatening their suspension if they did not agree to comply with the campus’s <a href="https://www.goucher.edu/policies/documents/Campus-Demonstration-Policy.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">demonstration policy</a> by the next day.</p>
  370.  
  371.  
  372.  
  373. <p>“As has been repeatedly communicated to you and our community, any Goucher student has the right to free expression on our campus, however, this does not mean you have the right to violate College policies,” Goucher College President Kent Devereaux wrote in an email shared with Baltimore Beat.</p>
  374.  
  375.  
  376.  
  377. <p>The demonstration policy on the private college campus requires that protests occur during business hours only and that students and employees request approval from the administration before holding a demonstration on campus.</p>
  378.  
  379.  
  380.  
  381. <p>One student organizer, who spoke with the Beat anonymously, said that student negotiators who received the sanction emails were told in the private negotiation meetings that they would receive amnesty for violating the demonstration policy.&nbsp;</p>
  382.  
  383.  
  384.  
  385. <p>The student also said that some of the students who received sanctions were not camping at the encampment but had been involved in activism on campus otherwise.&nbsp;</p>
  386.  
  387.  
  388.  
  389. <p>Another student organizer involved in the encampment said that the sanction could result in the loss of a degree for some seniors who are scheduled to graduate on May 24.</p>
  390.  
  391.  
  392.  
  393. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote"><blockquote><p>A professor at Goucher College confirmed that the encampment was still up as of Tuesday evening, before the sanctions were sent out.</p></blockquote></figure>
  394.  
  395.  
  396.  
  397. <p>A professor at Goucher College confirmed that the encampment was still up as of Tuesday evening, before the sanctions were sent out.</p>
  398.  
  399.  
  400.  
  401. <p>The encampment at Goucher College has been quietly carrying on since April 22, with Students For a Free Palestine calling on the administration to acknowledge the genocide against Palestinian people in a written statement; compile and make accessible an annual report on the university’s endowment investment portfolios and financial statements; remove Israel from a list of approved study abroad programs; and create a space for anti-Zionist Jewish students who don’t feel supported by the college’s Hillel organization, among other <a href="https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:VA6C2:15dac473-1b77-44eb-8fc2-74cd76ea74f7" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">demands</a>.  </p>
  402.  
  403.  
  404.  
  405. <p>Students and administrators had been negotiating on the demands for the last week but had different interpretations of their success. In an email sent to the campus community on May 10, Devereaux said they had reached “acceptable paths forward on nine of the 10 topics under discussion.”</p>
  406.  
  407.  
  408.  
  409. <p>Students For a Free Palestine released their own statement on May 13, saying that they had only come to an agreement on one of the demands: the disclosure of Goucher College’s investments. They also announced that Devereaux had doubled down on the demand for students to remove their encampment and set a deadline of 11:59 p.m. that night.&nbsp;</p>
  410.  
  411.  
  412.  
  413. <p>“As a gesture of good faith I have already extended the deadline for the encampment to come down twice. We will not extend the deadline a third time,” Devereaux wrote in an email to student negotiators on May 13.&nbsp;</p>
  414.  
  415.  
  416.  
  417. <p>“Failure to do so will risk everything that we have negotiated in good faith up to [this] point and could result in the imposition of sanctions on participating students,” Devereaux wrote.</p>
  418.  
  419.  
  420.  
  421. <p>Goucher College did not respond to a request for comment earlier on Tuesday.</p>
  422.  
  423.  
  424.  
  425. <p>Devereaux had previously threatened disciplinary action against Students For a Free Palestine after an April 29 sit-in in an administrative building.&nbsp;</p>
  426.  
  427.  
  428.  
  429. <p>In his email to the college community, Devereaux described the sit-in as “hostile,” and claimed participants “verbally attacked or threatened staff members leaving Dorsey Center, pounded on windows, kicked walls, and shoved their way through doors past campus security personnel.</p>
  430.  
  431.  
  432.  
  433. <p>That characterization was disputed by students, faculty and <a href="https://quinnews.com/goucher-students-hold-walkout-for-palestine-threatened-with-administrative-action" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">student newspaper coverage</a>, which described the sit-in much more mildly.</p>
  434.  
  435.  
  436.  
  437. <p>“Around 12:32 pm, the group attempted to enter the indoor area of the College Center, but was initially denied. After pushing as far into the entrance as they were permitted, the faculty blocking the doorways eventually gave way,” Olivia Barnes and Sam Rose, reporters for The Quindecim, the school’s independent newspaper, wrote.</p>
  438.  
  439.  
  440.  
  441. <p>“An open mic began at 12:45pm, providing a forum for anyone there to speak their mind. Enough students were packed into the lobby that many had to wait outside in order to provide a path to the door.”&nbsp;</p>
  442.  
  443.  
  444.  
  445. <p>Devereaux warned students participating in the sit-in and continuing the encampment that they could face a number of consequences, including “losing the ability to reside on campus, loss of scholarship support, or possible suspension or termination from the College.”</p>
  446.  
  447.  
  448.  
  449. <p>The president had stopped short of threatening to call police on the student encampment, as has been seen on college campuses across the country. The Appeal <a href="https://theappeal.org/prosecutors-charges-protesters-arrested-gaza-colleges-april/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reported</a> that as of May 7, nearly 3,000 students had been arrested while protesting Israel’s genocide in Gaza. </p>
  450. ]]></content:encoded>
  454. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313810</post-id> </item>
  455. <item>
  456. <title>Unions support student protestors against campus administrators and police</title>
  457. <link>https://therealnews.com/unions-support-student-protestors-against-campus-administrators-and-police</link>
  459. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Caitlyn Clark]]></dc:creator>
  460. <pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2024 18:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
  461. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  462. <category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
  463. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  464. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  465. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  466. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  467. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  468. <category><![CDATA[labor]]></category>
  469. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  470. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  471. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313815</guid>
  472.  
  473. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Pro-Palestinian protesters walk from Columbia University down to Hunter College as protests at area universities and colleges continue on May 6, 2024 in New York City. Spencer Platt / Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>As campus protests—and violent police repression—continue to roll across the country, some unions are getting involved.]]></description>
  474. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Pro-Palestinian protesters walk from Columbia University down to Hunter College as protests at area universities and colleges continue on May 6, 2024 in New York City. Spencer Platt / Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151810868-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  475. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:33% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="158" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=780%2C158&#038;ssl=1" alt="Labor Notes logo" class="wp-image-276698 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=1024%2C208&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=300%2C61&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=768%2C156&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=1536%2C312&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=1200%2C244&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=1568%2C319&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=400%2C81&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?resize=706%2C144&amp;ssl=1 706w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3.jpg?w=2026&amp;ssl=1 2026w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Labor-Notes-Masthead-Logo-3-1024x208.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  476. <p><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://labornotes.org/2024/05/unions-support-student-protestors-against-campus-administrators-and-police" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Labor Notes</a> on May 14, 2024. It is shared here with permission.</em></p>
  477. </div></div>
  478.  
  479.  
  480.  
  481. <p class="has-drop-cap">As campus protests—and violent police repression—continue to roll across the country, some unions are getting involved.</p>
  482.  
  483.  
  484.  
  485. <p>More than <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/us/pro-palestinian-college-protests-encampments.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">2,700 protesters</a> have been arrested on 64 college campuses since the initial arrests at Columbia University in New York on April 18. Encampments have appeared at 184 campuses worldwide. The protesting students are calling for full disclosure of their universities’ finances and divestment from all financial ties to weapons manufacturers and Israel’s war on Gaza.</p>
  486.  
  487.  
  488.  
  489. <p>Unionized academic workers are demanding decision-making power over their work and what it’s used for. For instance, academic workers in the astronomy department of the University of California Santa Cruz have organized to refuse to apply for or accept funding from the U.S. Department of Defense, weapons manufacturers, and military contractors.</p>
  490.  
  491.  
  492.  
  493. <p>In an <a href="https://scienceforthepeople.org/2024/01/17/ucsc-astronomy-rejects-researchers-complicity-with-the-genocide-of-palestine/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">open letter</a> published by the magazine <em>Science for the People</em> in January, they wrote, “UC has received $295 million in research funding from the Department of Defense in FY 2022 alone… Technology that astronomers have developed for science is being misused to surveil and target people both within and outside the U.S.”</p>
  494.  
  495.  
  496.  
  497. <p>For others, the police assaults on protestors and university administrators’ attacks on campus free speech have become issues of contract violations and workplace safety. Auto Workers (UAW) Local 4811, representing 48,000 academic workers across the University of California system, filed unfair labor practice (ULP) charges against their employer over violent police attacks on the UCLA student encampment.</p>
  498.  
  499.  
  500.  
  501. <p>“UCLA unilaterally changed its workplace free speech policies without providing notice or bargaining,” Local 4811 said in a statement. “In so doing it violated its policy of content neutrality toward speech by favoring those engaged in anti-Palestine speech over those engaged in pro-Palestine speech.”</p>
  502.  
  503.  
  504.  
  505. <p>The local will hold a strike authorization vote over the ULP May 13-15. The vote could lead to thousands of academic workers striking for free speech and in solidarity with the student movement for Palestine.</p>
  506.  
  507.  
  508.  
  509. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-democracy-built-confidence">DEMOCRACY BUILT CONFIDENCE</h2>
  510.  
  511.  
  512.  
  513. <p>At UC Santa Cruz, organizing within departments brought union members out on a single-day wildcat walkout on May 1. The idea was first raised at a monthly membership meeting a week before.</p>
  514.  
  515.  
  516.  
  517. <p>“No one came into the meeting thinking, ‘This is the proposal and we want to get it passed.’ It was more like, ‘Let’s talk about how we as unionists can meet the moment,’” said Sarah Mason, a sociology department steward.</p>
  518.  
  519.  
  520.  
  521. <p>Ideas were thrown out for single-day walkouts, strikes until the student demands for divestment and disclosure were met, and answering the Palestinian Federation of Trade Unions’ call for a global work stoppage on May Day. But with only 75 members present out of 1,000, they knew they couldn’t make the decision there.</p>
  522.  
  523.  
  524.  
  525. <p>Instead, stewards called department meetings to hold open-ended discussions. Out of 33 departments, 23 held meetings—a sign that the union has developed a robust steward structure.</p>
  526.  
  527.  
  528.  
  529. <p>The night before the proposed walkout, 300 union members attended an emergency meeting, 150 in person and 150 over Zoom. “Stewards were lining up to give report-backs on what the meetings were like in their departments,” Mason said. “It was an incredible thing to see.”</p>
  530.  
  531.  
  532.  
  533. <p>They decided on a single-day walkout the next day, and formed a committee to determine longer-term demands and discuss future strikes.</p>
  534.  
  535.  
  536.  
  537. <p>Mason credits a six-week strike in 2022 for helping embolden Santa Cruz workers to walk out again. Transparency in the decision-making process was important. “Every step of the way, people were discussing and deliberating respectfully, talking about things like strategy and risks,” she said. “Having that really clear picture produced confidence in people.”</p>
  538.  
  539.  
  540.  
  541. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-police-violence-at-work">POLICE VIOLENCE AT WORK</h2>
  542.  
  543.  
  544.  
  545. <p>“This is a moment where we’re seeing the importance of the student-worker labor movement in advancing political causes,” said Joanna Lee, a department organizer at the Student Workers of Columbia, UAW Local 2710. “It hasn’t been part of the broad consciousness in the labor movement to think in these internationalist terms, but we’re seeing a shift right now.”</p>
  546.  
  547.  
  548.  
  549. <p>SWC represents 3,000 graduate and undergraduate academic workers at the university. The union voted to join the Columbia University Apartheid Divest coalition in November 2023 after two student organizations, Students for Justice in Palestine and Jewish Voice for Peace, were banned from Columbia’s campus.</p>
  550.  
  551.  
  552.  
  553. <p>Lee said that when Columbia called police, who violently attacked student activists—many of them union members—it helped show other union members why this was a workplace safety issue for the union.</p>
  554.  
  555.  
  556.  
  557. <p>SWC has since filed grievances and ULP charges due to police violence against its members. A <a href="https://www.columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2024/05/04/letter-from-the-editors-columbia-enabled-the-nypd-to-suppress-free-press-as-it-brutalized-our-peers/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><em>Columbia Spectator</em> report</a> described the April 30 arrests, including a student who <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T3shB7wYdI" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">fell down the stairs</a> after allegedly being pushed by police. An NYPD officer <a href="https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68947267" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">accidentally fired his gun</a> while clearing the occupation of Hamilton Hall.</p>
  558.  
  559.  
  560.  
  561. <p>SWC members coordinated with Columbia unions representing post-docs and faculty while at this year’s Labor Notes Conference in Chicago, Lee said.</p>
  562.  
  563.  
  564.  
  565. <p>During the coordinated NYPD sweeps of camps at Columbia and City College of New York, <a href="https://theintercept.com/2024/05/06/columbia-student-protests-nypd-jail/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">282 protestors were arrested</a>. But new campus protest encampments have been springing up across the country. According to <a href="https://students4gaza.directory/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Students 4 Gaza</a>, there have been student encampments at least 184 college campuses across the world. Some have won some or all of their demands, like the <a href="https://jacobin.com/2024/05/san-francisco-state-student-protest-palestine" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">open bargaining sessions</a> being held by hundreds of student protestors at San Francisco State University with their university president.</p>
  566.  
  567.  
  568.  
  569. <p>In the UAW, there has been action from both the rank-and-file and union leadership. UAW Region 9A held a “Stand Up for Gaza” solidarity rally on April 26, gathering faculty and students from NYU, Columbia, and The New School in support of protesting students. The rally ended with a <a href="https://twitter.com/probablyreadit/status/1783975631480365510" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">march to</a> the student encampment at NYU.</p>
  570.  
  571.  
  572.  
  573. <p>UAW Region 9A director Brandon Mancilla said in an <a href="https://jacobin.com/2024/05/uaw-israel-palestine-solidarity-unions" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">interview with Jacobin</a>: “This is a student issue, it’s an academic free-speech issue—but it’s also a labor issue, because our members have made it so and have exposed how much it affects the rights of everyone on campus, not just their own bargaining units.”</p>
  574.  
  575.  
  576.  
  577. <h2 class="wp-block-heading">FIGHTING CONTRACT VIOLATIONS</h2>
  578.  
  579.  
  580.  
  581. <p>Some union members have taken action by simply pointing to their union contracts. City bus drivers organized with TWU Local 100 refused to transport arrested protestors to jail at an April 23 Jewish Voice for Peace protest—a Passover “Seder in the Streets” outside of New York Senator Chuck Schumer’s home.</p>
  582.  
  583.  
  584.  
  585. <p>The New York Police Department (NYPD) had commandeered city buses to take the protestors to jail. Six TWU Local 100 members walked off the job instead, stating that the task was outside of their assigned routes and not part of their union contract.</p>
  586.  
  587.  
  588.  
  589. <p>The NYPD eventually found police officers with commercial drivers’ licenses to drive the buses, but arrestees reported dangerous conditions as the drivers sped, hit several curbs, and got lost, according to&nbsp;<em>The Nation</em>.</p>
  590.  
  591.  
  592.  
  593. <h2 class="wp-block-heading">JUSTICE AT HOME AND ABROAD</h2>
  594.  
  595.  
  596.  
  597. <p>“The systems that deprive workers here from better working conditions, from fair wages, and from equality, are the same systems that fund and prop up the Israeli occupation,” said Taher Dahleh, a rank-and-file member of Communications Workers Local 1109 in Brooklyn, and organizer with the Palestinian Youth Movement. “The same repressive tools developed by Israel are bought and used by oppressive regimes to target organizers of all kinds, including labor.”</p>
  598.  
  599.  
  600.  
  601. <p>Through his union, Dahleh has been able to have difficult conversations with coworkers about the importance of fighting for justice in Palestine. Dahleh said one coworker who comes from a politically conservative background and was initially uncertain about what he was seeing on the news. “We have worked closely on work and union issues, and he trusts me as a coworker and fellow union member. This trust allowed me to share personal stories about things that family members and loved ones in Palestine experience.”</p>
  602.  
  603.  
  604.  
  605. <p>“I asked him, ‘Why is it that every single time we sit down to bargain with Verizon, we have to fight them for raises to keep pace with the cost of living….when this country clearly has the money to pay for our needs?’”</p>
  606.  
  607.  
  608.  
  609. <p>This coworker joined Dahleh and other CWA 1109 members at a Palestinian Youth Movement march. “This was my friend&#8217;s first ever protest, and he left saying that next time he’s going to bring his son and wife!” Dahleh said. “We have always been at our strongest when we fight for broad movements for justice and against oppression.”</p>
  610. ]]></content:encoded>
  614. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313815</post-id> </item>
  615. <item>
  616. <title>&#8220;This is in the spirit of our tradition&#8221;: The first Jewish Biden appointee resigns over Gaza</title>
  617. <link>https://therealnews.com/this-is-in-the-spirit-of-our-tradition-the-first-jewish-biden-appointee-resigns-over-gaza</link>
  619. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Ari Bloomekatz]]></dc:creator>
  620. <pubDate>Thu, 16 May 2024 15:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
  621. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  622. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  623. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  624. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  625. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  626. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  627. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  628. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  629. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313676</guid>
  630.  
  631. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="US President Joe Biden holds a press conference following a solidarity visit to Israel, on October 18, 2023, in Tel Aviv. Photo by BRENDAN SMIALOWSKI/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>“It’s time for us to stand up against what is happening to Palestinians in our name,” Lily Greenberg Call says in an interview with In These Times.]]></description>
  632. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="US President Joe Biden holds a press conference following a solidarity visit to Israel, on October 18, 2023, in Tel Aviv. Photo by BRENDAN SMIALOWSKI/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1731044481-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  633. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:30% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="174" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/In-These-Times-logo.jpeg?resize=780%2C174&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-275848 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/In-These-Times-logo.jpeg?w=897&amp;ssl=1 897w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/In-These-Times-logo.jpeg?resize=300%2C67&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/In-These-Times-logo.jpeg?resize=768%2C171&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/In-These-Times-logo.jpeg?resize=400%2C89&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/In-These-Times-logo.jpeg?resize=706%2C157&amp;ssl=1 706w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/In-These-Times-logo.jpeg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  634. <p style="font-size:18px"><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://inthesetimes.com/article/lily-greenberg-call-resigns-biden-appointee-gaza-jewish" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">In These Times </a>on May 15, 2024. It is shared here with permission.</em></p>
  635. </div></div>
  636.  
  637.  
  638.  
  639. <p class="has-drop-cap">Lily Greenberg Call, one of&nbsp;President Joe Biden’s appointees, resigned from her position within the U.S. Department of the Interior on Wednesday in protest of how the administration is funding, fueling and enabling the Israeli genocide of Palestinians in&nbsp;Gaza.&nbsp;</p>
  640.  
  641.  
  642.  
  643. <p>Greenberg Call is the first Jewish appointee to resign from the Biden Administration in protest and told&nbsp;<em>In These Times</em>&nbsp;that&nbsp;​“It’s time for us to stand up against what is happening to Palestinians in our&nbsp;name.”</p>
  644.  
  645.  
  646.  
  647. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright has-text-align-left"><blockquote><p>&#8220;I have asked myself many times over the last eight months: what is the point of having power if you will not use it to stop crimes against humanity?&#8221;</p></blockquote></figure>
  648.  
  649.  
  650.  
  651. <p>In a four-page letter of resignation that Greenberg Call released publicly on Wednesday, she wrote that she ​“can no longer in good conscience continue to represent this administration amidst President Biden’s disastrous, continued support for Israel’s genocide in Gaza.”</p>
  652.  
  653.  
  654.  
  655. <p>According to the Associated Press, Greenberg Call is now&nbsp;​“at least the fifth mid- or senior-level administration staffer to make public their resignation in protest of the Biden administration’s military and diplomatic support” of the Israeli government’s assault on&nbsp;Gaza.</p>
  656.  
  657.  
  658.  
  659. <p>“She is the second political appointee to do so,” according to the Associated Press,&nbsp;​“after an Education Department official of Palestinian heritage [Tariq Habash] resigned in&nbsp;January.”</p>
  660.  
  661.  
  662.  
  663. <p>In&nbsp;<a href="https://x.com/inthesetimesmag/status/1790826026441875507" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">her letter of resignation</a>, Greenberg Call proudly declared that she was an American Jew and wrote that:&nbsp;​“My family escaped antisemitic persecution in Europe and found refuge in America. They changed their names at Ellis Island and worked as farmers, peddlers, and salespeople. My grandparents could not go to&nbsp;college.”</p>
  664.  
  665.  
  666.  
  667. <p>“Two generations later,” she wrote,&nbsp;​“I have the honor of working as an appointee for the President of the United States. The weight of this position is not lost on me. This is the story of many people in my community: a&nbsp;story of survival, upward mobility, and fulfillment of the American Dream. And yet, I&nbsp;have asked myself many times over the last eight months: what is the point of having power if you will not use it to stop crimes against&nbsp;humanity?”</p>
  668.  
  669.  
  670.  
  671. <p>Greenberg Call spoke with&nbsp;<em>In These Times</em>&nbsp;Executive Editor Ari Bloomekatz on Wednesday afternoon, shortly after news broke of her&nbsp;resignation.&nbsp;</p>
  672.  
  673.  
  674.  
  675. <p><em>This interview has been edited for length, order and clarity.</em></p>
  676.  
  677.  
  678.  
  679. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide"/>
  680.  
  681.  
  682.  
  683. <p><strong>ARI BLOOMEKATZ:&nbsp;</strong>When people are reading your letter of resignation, what is it that you want them to take away from&nbsp;it?</p>
  684.  
  685.  
  686.  
  687. <p><strong>LILY GREENBERG CALL:&nbsp;</strong>The main one is that the President has the power to call for a&nbsp;cease-fire, to stop sending weapons to Israel, to condition aid and also to broker a&nbsp;hostage deal. I&nbsp;mean, if we care about the hostages, then we should stop bombing the area that they’re in and we should get them out. And the Israeli government clearly is not making that a&nbsp;priority.</p>
  688.  
  689.  
  690.  
  691. <p>But for others, for other appointees and people in government, I hope that this inspires them to take a public stance for Palestinian lives, even if that means resigning. I also hope that people will start to listen and defer to Palestinians for moral guidance on this issue. I want to note that the first appointee to resign over this, back in January, was Palestinian American, my former colleague, Tariq Habash.</p>
  692.  
  693.  
  694.  
  695. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignleft has-text-align-right"><blockquote><p>But for others, for other appointees and people in government, I hope that this inspires them to take a public stance for Palestinian lives, even if that means resigning.</p></blockquote></figure>
  696.  
  697.  
  698.  
  699. <p>And then you know, I think, to the Jewish community, as I was saying earlier, I want us to really integrate that, it’s time for us to stand up against what is happening to Palestinians in our name. I want us to listen to the families of Israeli hostages who are demanding that this end. And I want us to, for our sake, understand that we have to be a part of making this end and it is what we need to do— not just for Palestinians, but for ourselves.</p>
  700.  
  701.  
  702.  
  703. <figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="520" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596.jpg?resize=780%2C520&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-313680" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2059259596-1024x683.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Pro-Palestinian activists carrying out demonstrations across key parts of the US capital as President Joe Biden prepares to deliver the annual State of Union address. Photo by Celal Gunes/Anadolu via Getty Images</figcaption></figure>
  704.  
  705.  
  706.  
  707. <p><strong>BLOOMEKATZ:</strong>&nbsp;You’re not a&nbsp;stranger to the Biden Administration, even before you were appointed. These are people you’ve worked for and that you’ve helped elect and that it seems like you really believed in for a&nbsp;long time. What does it mean to you to resign from an administration you have spent so much time working to&nbsp;build?</p>
  708.  
  709.  
  710.  
  711. <p><strong>GREENBERG CALL: </strong>You said it. I interned for Senator Harris when I was in college. She was always really inspiring to me. And then I moved to Iowa right after I graduated, a place I had never been before, to work for her campaign. And then moved to Arizona and was there from January through November of the general. </p>
  712.  
  713.  
  714.  
  715. <p>I was terrified of a&nbsp;Trump presidency and knew that I&nbsp;had to dedicate myself in&nbsp;2020&nbsp;to preventing that. And you know, I&nbsp;think that one thing that is so devastating about this is it seems like the President is not taking the threat of another Trump presidency seriously, because the political establishment is ignoring their constituents, which are the American people,&nbsp;60% of whom want a&nbsp;cease-fire.</p>
  716.  
  717.  
  718.  
  719. <p>My job as a&nbsp;public servant is to protect the American people and listen to them. That’s part of the oath that I&nbsp;took. And I&nbsp;feel like I&nbsp;am here fulfilling that oath. And it seems like the President is&nbsp;not.</p>
  720.  
  721.  
  722.  
  723. <p>It’s been very clear to me, what the right thing to do is here, and I&nbsp;think when you see people in charge not displaying that moral clarity and leadership, you know you have to take it on&nbsp;yourself.</p>
  724.  
  725.  
  726.  
  727. <p><strong>BLOOMEKATZ: </strong>How long have you been thinking about resigning? How did you come to this decision?</p>
  728.  
  729.  
  730.  
  731. <p><strong>GREENBERG CALL: </strong>It definitely was a long process, and I sought counsel from a lot of trusted people in my life. But I think everything that has happened in the last few weeks is what led me to making this choice now. In particular, the invasion of Rafah that is happening. The brutalization of students across the country and the President’s focus on order instead of protecting people’s right to freedom and assembly.</p>
  732.  
  733.  
  734.  
  735. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote><p>It&#8217;s also really horrifying to see Jewish trauma weaponized as cover for genocide, and in particular, as an American Jew, to hear the President say things like Jews wouldn&#8217;t be safe if there wasn&#8217;t Israel.<br></p></blockquote></figure>
  736.  
  737.  
  738.  
  739. <p>It’s also really horrifying to see Jewish trauma weaponized as cover for genocide, and in particular, as an American Jew, to hear the President say things like Jews wouldn’t be safe if there wasn’t Israel. That’s terrifying to me, like my family came here to find safety from antisemitism. We, as American Jews, have been able to thrive here. Of course we still experienced antisemitism, but to hear the U.S. president say that and to make us decide between our moral values and to frame it as about our safety is not right, as though Palestinian life and Jewish life are somehow at odds with each&nbsp;other.</p>
  740.  
  741.  
  742.  
  743. <p>It’s wrong. And it’s not only wrong, it’s&nbsp;dangerous.</p>
  744.  
  745.  
  746.  
  747. <p><strong>BLOOMEKATZ:</strong>&nbsp;One of the things I’ve been thinking about with your resignation is what it means for Jews to show leadership in this moment. Do you feel like a&nbsp;leader? Or like you’re trying to be a&nbsp;leader with this resignation? How are you thinking about all of this right&nbsp;now?</p>
  748.  
  749.  
  750.  
  751. <p><strong>GREENBERG CALL:</strong>&nbsp;I&nbsp;don’t know if I&nbsp;thought of this as leadership necessarily. It became very clear to me that this was the decision, the thing that I&nbsp;had to do to maintain integrity. First and foremost, I&nbsp;could no longer stay and be representing the Biden administration. My job as an appointee is to serve at the pleasure of the President when I&nbsp;was morally disgusted by what is happening in Gaza, with American funding and American&nbsp;weapons.</p>
  752.  
  753.  
  754.  
  755. <p>Also the president’s continued commitment to using the narrative of Jewish trauma and Jewish pain to provide cover for this genocide to continue to frame the narrative as about Jewish safety and Palestinian, not even freedom, just like existence and life are somehow things that we have to choose between. And I&nbsp;know that that’s not true. I&nbsp;know that from my own experience, and I&nbsp;know from a&nbsp;broader perspective that the only thing that keeps Jews safe and anyone safe is multiracial&nbsp;democracy.&nbsp;</p>
  756.  
  757.  
  758.  
  759. <p>This is not the narrative that I&nbsp;was taught in my Jewish community and growing up, and I’ve been very lucky to find new community and find leadership and guidance from people. But to me, this is a&nbsp;manifestation of the Jewish values that I&nbsp;was raised with, that I&nbsp;learned in day school, that I&nbsp;was taught by my family and by Jewish&nbsp;leaders.&nbsp;</p>
  760.  
  761.  
  762.  
  763. <p>So even if they might not agree with me politically, I&nbsp;am certain that this is in the spirit of our&nbsp;tradition.</p>
  764. ]]></content:encoded>
  768. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313676</post-id> </item>
  769. <item>
  770. <title>South Baltimore residents on the toxic reality of living in a &#8216;sacrifice zone&#8217;</title>
  771. <link>https://therealnews.com/south-baltimore-residents-on-the-toxic-reality-of-living-in-a-sacrifice-zone</link>
  773. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Maximillian Alvarez]]></dc:creator>
  774. <pubDate>Wed, 15 May 2024 17:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
  775. <category><![CDATA[Climate Crisis]]></category>
  776. <category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
  777. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  778. <category><![CDATA[Working People]]></category>
  779. <category><![CDATA[baltimore]]></category>
  780. <category><![CDATA[Economy]]></category>
  781. <category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
  782. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313621</guid>
  783.  
  784. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="South Baltimore From Wikimedia Commons" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Cherry Hill, Westport, Mt. Winans, Lakeland, Brooklyn, and Curtis Bay lead Maryland in pollution levels as measured by the Department of the Environment.]]></description>
  785. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="South Baltimore From Wikimedia Commons" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/South_Baltimore_49092916056-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  786. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  787. <iframe title="Spotify Embed: South Baltimore residents on the toxic reality of living in a &amp;apos;sacrifice zone&amp;apos;" style="border-radius: 12px" width="100%" height="152" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture" loading="lazy" src="https://open.spotify.com/embed/episode/4hLvNeMInBYHPnH1IBiwbg?si=e341358f601f4b8f&#038;utm_source=oembed"></iframe>
  788. </div></figure>
  789.  
  790.  
  791.  
  792. <p class="has-drop-cap">“South Baltimore is a sacrifice zone,” Michael Middleton and Dr. Sacoby Wilson wrote in a guest commentary published in Maryland Matters this February. “The six communities that make up South Baltimore—Cherry Hill, Westport, Mt. Winans, Lakeland, Brooklyn, and Curtis Bay—rank in the top 3% of the state for environmental burden using a Maryland Department of the Environment (MDE) screening tool. Curtis Bay, the highest in the state, is Maryland’s poster child for environmental injustice. Industrial areas near Curtis Bay house oil tanks, a wastewater treatment plant, chemical plants, landfills, the country’s largest medical waste incinerator, and more. Heavy diesel trucks frequent residential streets. The Wagner’s Point and Fairfield communities that were once Curtis Bay’s neighbors to the east are gone. Those residents accepted buyouts to leave between the 1980s and 2011 after a series of chemical spills and accidents.” In this episode, we continue our “Sacrificed” series by focusing on communities in South Baltimore and a story that quite literally hits close to home, less than half an hour from where Max lives. We speak with a panel of residents of South Baltimore about how they have seen their communities change over the years, what it feels like to be “sacrificed” by industry and their government, how they and their neighbors are fighting for change, fighting for justice, and what others in Baltimore and beyond can do to help. Panelists include: David Jones, who has lived in Curtis Bay for over 35 years; Angela Smothers, a lifelong resident of Mt. Winans; Carlos Sanchez, a youth leader born and raised in Lakeland; and Tiffany Thompson, who was born and raised in Cherry Hill and has lived in Curtis Bay for the past three years.</p>
  793.  
  794.  
  795.  
  796. <p>Additional links/info below…</p>
  797.  
  798.  
  799.  
  800. <ul>
  801. <li>Coal-Free Curtis Bay <a href="https://m.facebook.com/CoalFreeCurtisBay" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a> page</li>
  802.  
  803.  
  804.  
  805. <li>Nicole Fabricant, University of California Press, <a href="https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520379329/fighting-to-breathe" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Fighting to Breathe: Race, Toxicity, and the Rise of Youth Activism in Baltimore</a></li>
  806.  
  807.  
  808.  
  809. <li>Nicole Fabricant, The Real News Network, “<a href="https://therealnews.com/opinion-csx-explosion-in-curtis-bay-should-alarm-baltimore-city-and-accelerate-real-change" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Opinion | CSX explosion in Curtis Bay should alarm Baltimore City and accelerate real change</a>”</li>
  810.  
  811.  
  812.  
  813. <li>Michael Middleton &amp; Dr. Sacoby Wilson, Maryland Matters, “<a href="https://www.marylandmatters.org/2024/02/19/commentary-maryland-deserves-a-better-environmental-justice-bill/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Commentary: Maryland deserves a better environmental justice bill</a>”</li>
  814.  
  815.  
  816.  
  817. <li>Chloe Ahmann, Baltimore Sun, “<a href="https://www.baltimoresun.com/2024/02/18/curtis-bay-coal/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Curtis Bay residents deserve a coal-free future</a>”</li>
  818.  
  819.  
  820.  
  821. <li>Christine Condon &amp; Dillon Mullan, Baltimore Sun, “<a href="https://www.baltimoresun.com/2023/12/14/study-documents-toll-of-coal-dust-on-south-baltimores-curtis-bay/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Curtis Bay residents ask state to shut down South Baltimore CSX facility after study documents toll of coal dust</a>”</li>
  822.  
  823.  
  824.  
  825. <li>Aman Azhar, InsideClimate News, “<a href="https://insideclimatenews.org/news/06082023/baltimore-harm-cityenvironmental-justice-neighborhoods/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">On a ‘Toxic Tour’ of Curtis Bay in South Baltimore, Visiting Academics and Activists See a Hidden Part of the City</a>”</li>
  826.  
  827.  
  828.  
  829. <li>Christian Olaniran, Adam Thompson, Caroline Foreback, CBS News, “<a href="https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/air-quality-study-reveals-presence-of-coal-dust-in-baltimores-curtis-bay-community/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Residents meet after air quality study reveals presence of coal dust in Curtis Bay</a>”</li>
  830. </ul>
  831.  
  832.  
  833.  
  834. <p>Permanent links below&#8230;</p>
  835.  
  836.  
  837.  
  838. <ul>
  839. <li><a href="https://www.speakpipe.com/workingpeople" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Leave us a voicemail</a> and we might play it on the show!</li>
  840.  
  841.  
  842.  
  843. <li>Labor Radio / Podcast Network <a href="https://www.laborradionetwork.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">website</a>, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/LaborRadioNet/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a> page, and <a href="https://twitter.com/laborradionet" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Twitter</a> page</li>
  844.  
  845.  
  846.  
  847. <li>In These Times <a href="https://inthesetimes.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">website</a>, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/inthesetimesmag/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a> page, and <a href="https://twitter.com/inthesetimesmag" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Twitter</a> page</li>
  848.  
  849.  
  850.  
  851. <li>The Real News Network <a href="https://therealnews.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">website</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/c/therealnews" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">YouTube</a> channel, <a href="https://therealnews.com/our-shows-podcasts" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">podcast</a> feeds, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/therealnews" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a> page, and <a href="https://twitter.com/TheRealNews" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Twitter</a> page</li>
  852. </ul>
  853.  
  854.  
  855.  
  856. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  857. <p>Studio Production: Maximillian Alvarez<br>Post-Production: Jules Taylor</p>
  858. </blockquote>
  859.  
  860.  
  861.  
  862. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  863.  
  864.  
  865.  
  866. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  867.  
  868.  
  869.  
  870. <p><em><br>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  871.  
  872.  
  873.  
  874. <p>David Jones:</p>
  875.  
  876.  
  877.  
  878. <p>So, my name is David Jones. I&#8217;ve lived in the community of Curtis Bay for over 35 years. Grew up here as a child, went to the elementary school and the middle school. Moved away, and then moved back as, I guess, a young teenager. Got my first apartment in Curtis Bay at 15-years-old. Was on my own with me and my wife. And, been pretty much living here ever since. Moved away again, and then bought my grandfather&#8217;s house. And then, I should say, since then, we&#8217;ve been living here ever since. Me and my wife&#8217;s been here now, in this house, for 26 years, 27 years.</p>
  879.  
  880.  
  881.  
  882. <p>Growing up here as a kid, it was a great place, very community-oriented. Everyone looked out for everyone. Everyone really cared about the dynamics and the way the community was. The industries, as a kid, we really didn&#8217;t look at them as an issue, because as a child you don&#8217;t see those as problems. You look at them almost as they&#8217;re part of your landscape, and it was a playground for us. We played on the train tracks, we played down by the water at some of these industries, at their peers like CSX. We went down to the coal piers, and fished, and stuff like that when we were kids. And, it was a good place to be growing up. But then, as you get older, and you start to learn the dynamics that are actually going on in this community and the effects of what these industries are doing to people, and even as a kid, I knew certain things, but it doesn&#8217;t really register because you don&#8217;t really think about it as much when you&#8217;re a kid.</p>
  883.  
  884.  
  885.  
  886. <p>I had friends that were taken away in the middle of the night and lived in Wagner&#8217;s Point in Fairfield, because their houses were bought out by industry because of eminent domain and because industry was more important than these neighborhoods that were a big part of these industries even being here. It&#8217;s just hard. I mean, I had an uncle that lived here for 30, 40 years and fought against industry, and finally threw his hands up, and had enough and left, just like a lot of other people. And it gets like that. I mean, you definitely feel like it&#8217;s not a winning fight sometimes. But, I&#8217;ve met a lot of great people, a lot of people that have just as much passion as I do, if not more. And, we&#8217;re not going to give up. We&#8217;re not going to stop this fight.</p>
  887.  
  888.  
  889.  
  890. <p>And, even if I decide to move away, I will fight just as hard as if I live here, because this place will always be my roots on where I started and where I was born. And, seeing 40 years later, I&#8217;ll be 44 this year, 40 years later, that these things are still happening and it&#8217;s been generational, it&#8217;s disheartening. It really is.</p>
  891.  
  892.  
  893.  
  894. <p>Tiffany Thompson:</p>
  895.  
  896.  
  897.  
  898. <p>My name is Tiffany. I&#8217;ve been a Curtis Bay resident for the past three years. I was born and raised in Cherry Hill. Back in the early-2000s, I worked as a teacher in the Headstart at Curtis Bay Elementary, where I taught children who were three years of age, three to four years of age who had severe health problems, mainly asthma, who lived in Curtis Bay. And because of that reason and the air quality that I experienced as a teacher, I back then vowed that I would never live in Curtis Bay. But circumstances brought us here. I ain&#8217;t going to say circumstances. But I brought us here for a reason. I like the community. I love the community collaborations. It&#8217;s a lot of great things in Curtis Bay, a lot of great people in Curtis Bay.</p>
  899.  
  900.  
  901.  
  902. <p>For my oldest child it&#8217;s home now. And I say that because my grandmother who&#8217;s elderly, I&#8217;ll be moving her with me soon, and she refuses to live in Curtis Bay. She feel like she made the 91, she&#8217;s not going to let this environment take her out, which is sad and unfortunate, because like I said, for me, I live on a nice street and I like my neighbors. I like where I live, but because of the health conditions that we&#8217;re fighting to erase, eradicate, she&#8217;s not willing to live here. But again, I feel good about my community, because we come together, and we&#8217;re supportive of each other, and we are continuing to battle the hazardous health conditions that we face that many people like Dave and Angie have faced over 30 years.</p>
  903.  
  904.  
  905.  
  906. <p>Carlos Sanchez:</p>
  907.  
  908.  
  909.  
  910. <p>Hi, my name is Carlos Sanchez. I am a youth leader in the community of Lakeland, which is a neighboring community in Curtis Bay. Although I was born and raised in Lakeland, I do a lot of organizing in Curtis Bay, and then communities in South Baltimore. And, seeing what people have to deal with, not just in Curtis Bay, but in South Baltimore and home, and all of Mount Winans, Lakeland, Westport, all South Baltimore communities, there&#8217;s something that has to be changed, and it&#8217;s up to us to work together to accomplish that.</p>
  911.  
  912.  
  913.  
  914. <p>Angela Smothers:</p>
  915.  
  916.  
  917.  
  918. <p>My name is Angela Smothers. I&#8217;m from Mount Linens, a small community in Baltimore. I&#8217;ve lived here all my life, which is a lot of years, over 50. And, as a child piggybacking off of Carlos, Angie, Dave, and who else? Did I miss anyone? The crew. We&#8217;re faced with most of all the same issues. This community is not just surrounded by one railroad tracks. We are actually surrounded by two. So, one end of the community is one set of railroad tracks, and the other end of the community is another railway. So, as a child, you hear the talk, you hear the complaints, but you&#8217;re too young to really understand. But, growing up in the community, raising kids in the community, when it&#8217;s affecting you, and you are mature enough to understand what my parents and my neighbors were fighting for, now, I mean, it&#8217;s real and been ongoing way too long, way, way too long.</p>
  919.  
  920.  
  921.  
  922. <p>Yeah, I really think&#8230; Well, I know a lot of people in the community has passed from cancer, which we believe is from the debris of the coal trains passing on both railroad tracks untarped. It&#8217;s just about time that they really take into consideration, they have to prioritize human life over profit. And, you know what I mean? It&#8217;s not an unreasonable request that many people, such as myself, not just in this state, but many states, that these issues are ongoing and it&#8217;s really overdue. It&#8217;s really overdue. Our quality and time span of our lives are definitely being shortened by the inconsideration of these railways that really don&#8217;t take our lives into consideration. I&#8217;m sorry, I&#8217;m going to hurry up. As a child, this is not a wealthy community. I had five sisters and three brothers, so it wasn&#8217;t as simple as just picking up, going, leaving, because it&#8217;s a nice community overall. My parents even loved it, but the community at large just wanted some safety measures put on the transporting of the coal and all the other hazardous material that was transported. And, way back then, it&#8217;s still occurring today.</p>
  923.  
  924.  
  925.  
  926. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  927.  
  928.  
  929.  
  930. <p>All right, welcome everyone to another episode of Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today, brought to you in partnership with In These Times Magazine and the Real News Network, produced by Jules Taylor, and made possible by the support of listeners like you. Working People is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast network. If you&#8217;re hungry for more worker and labor focus shows like ours, follow the link in the show notes and go check out all the other great shows in our network. And please support the work that we&#8217;re doing here at Working People because we cannot keep going without y&#8217;all.</p>
  931.  
  932.  
  933.  
  934. <p>Share our episodes with your coworkers, your friends, and your family members, leave positive reviews of the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and become a paid monthly subscriber on Patreon for just five bucks a month to unlock all the great bonus episodes that we publish for our patrons. And please support the work that we do at The Real News Network by going over to the realnews.com/donate, and become a donor today, especially if you want to see more reporting from the front lines of struggle around the U.S. and across the world.</p>
  935.  
  936.  
  937.  
  938. <p>My name is Maximilian Alvarez and we&#8217;ve got another doozy of an episode for y&#8217;all today. And I&#8217;m sure you guys have started to notice a bit of a theme in our episodes this year. From all of the interviews and organizing that we&#8217;ve been doing with residents living in and around East Palestine, Ohio, where as we know in Norfolk Southern Train derailment last year upended their lives and exposed those residents and their families to toxins that continue to do irreparable damage to their bodies, their environment, and their community, to the last interview that we published with Vina Cauley, who has herself been fighting for 40 years to expose all the ways the Portsmouth gaseous diffusion plant in Pike County, Ohio has been poisoning workers and residents. And that plant was built during the Cold War, all the way back in 1952, to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons and the U.S. Department of Energy&#8217;s Atomic Energy Program. So that fight&#8217;s been going on for a long time too.</p>
  939.  
  940.  
  941.  
  942. <p>And, I have admittedly become a bit obsessed with the fact that so many of our fellow workers across the country are basically living in what we have chillingly come to call sacrifice zones. Normally, the term sacrifice zone is used to describe a place where people live that is being polluted by private industry or by government operations, because let&#8217;s not forget, the Department of Defense and the military are pound for pound one of the biggest environmental polluters, if not the biggest polluter in the country, along with these other private industries.</p>
  943.  
  944.  
  945.  
  946. <p>But the more that I look into this, the more obvious it becomes that the whole swaths of the country, including in our major cities, are basically right now in the process of being sacrificed, especially when you count communities that are already feeling the devastating impacts of climate change. And, they&#8217;re basically being left to fend for themselves, because from the forever chemicals and microplastics that are literally inside all of us right now to the poisonous coal ash, tailings pools, and factory farm manure lakes that are sitting next to homes across the country. From the generations and homelands that are at mortal risk of ever more massive wildfires and ever more punishing water shortages, to the community&#8217;s downwind from petrochemical plants breathing in the toxic exhaust 24/7. From all of us who live on or near military and Department of Defense sites, to all the cities and towns across the country that have under maintained rail lines and understaffed, overloaded bomb trains running through them, more and more of us are being set up for sacrifice.</p>
  947.  
  948.  
  949.  
  950. <p>And by the time most of us realize that we have been or are in the process of being sacrificed, it will already be too late. And so, we have to fight now. Accepting the wholesale sacrifice of entire communities from East Palestine to South Baltimore should be in every sense of the word unacceptable in any society worthy of the name. And yet, not only has it been accepted as a thing that corporations, shareholders, and policymakers can get away with. After 40 plus years of runaway deregulation, public disinvestment, and total corporate domination, America&#8217;s sacrifice zones are no longer extreme outliers. I mean, they are quite literally a harrowing model of the future that lies in store for most of us, especially as we continue to spiral into the age of climate chaos with all the economic, and political, and humanitarian crises that are going to come with that. This is only going to get worse. If the corporate monsters, corporate politicians, and Wall Street vampires who are poisoning our communities while poisoning and exploiting us at work are not stopped.</p>
  951.  
  952.  
  953.  
  954. <p>And it&#8217;s going to be us, the ones who are in the path of all this reckless and preventable destruction, working people fighting as one who are going to stop them. And today&#8217;s episode proves both of these points, because today we are talking about the story of another community sacrificed at the altar of corporate profits and government negligence. And this story very literally hits close to home for me, because I am talking to my Baltimore neighbors here, folks who as you heard live in Curtis Bay, Mount Winans, and other parts of South Baltimore, about a 15-minute drive from the Real News network studio that I am sitting in right now. And before we turn back to our incredible panel of guests, I want to just read from two articles here to help set the table a little bit, because I know a lot of folks around the country haven&#8217;t heard about the nightmare that Curtis Bay and other residents across South Baltimore have actually been living and fighting through.</p>
  955.  
  956.  
  957.  
  958. <p>And so, I want to make sure folks are up to speed here. And in a guest commentary that was published in Maryland Matters this February, Michael Middleton and Dr. Sabby Wilson Wright, &#8220;South Baltimore is a sacrifice zone. The six communities that make up South Baltimore, Cherry Hill, Westport, Mount Winans, Lakeland, Brooklyn, and Curtis Bay rank in the top 3% of the state for environmental burden using a Maryland Department of the Environment or MDE screening tool. Curtis Bay, the highest in the state, is Maryland&#8217;s poster child for environmental injustice. Industrial areas near Curtis Bay house oil tanks, a wastewater treatment plant, chemical plants, landfills, the country&#8217;s largest medical waste incinerator, and more. Heavy diesel trucks, frequent residential streets. The Wagner Point&#8217;s in Fairfield communities that were once Curtis Bay&#8217;s neighbors to the east are gone. Those residents accepted buyouts to leave between the 1980s and 2011 after a series of chemical spills and accidents.&#8221;</p>
  959.  
  960.  
  961.  
  962. <p>Now, in another piece published by CBS in December, the authors note an air quality study confirmed the presence of coal dust in South Baltimore&#8217;s Curtis Bay community, according to the Maryland Department of the Environment. Daily, a dark-colored dust permeates every aspect of life. A new study proves what neighbors have long suspected, that the dark dust is coal. The community of Curtis Bay Association held a meeting Thursday evening to discuss these new findings. The results showed that coal particles were found at eight community sampling locations, including residences, areas near businesses, a church, park, and school, the MDE said. The question remains, who will put a stop to this? The dust is on their homes and in the air they breathe. &#8220;At points of my life living in Curtis Bay, I&#8217;ve literally spit up chunks of coal.&#8221; Said David, a Curtis Bay resident. A recent air quality study confirmed coal dust from the CSX Transportation, Coal export terminal is present all over Curtis Bay.</p>
  963.  
  964.  
  965.  
  966. <p>The year-long study was released by the community of Curtis Bay Association, South Baltimore Land Trust, Johns Hopkins University, the University of Maryland, and the Maryland Department of the Environment. The study found that coal dust is dispersed throughout the community daily. It blows off of the coal piles at the terminal and off rail cars during transport, and then the community is overburdened by the air pollution it causes. At the meeting, Thursday night, Dr. Chris Heaney from Johns Hopkins School of Public Health explained the harmful effects of coal dust pollution, adverse impacts on our respiratory health, on your cardiovascular health, your heart health, Heaney said, they&#8217;re related to things like stroke. &#8220;I&#8217;ve got 11-year-olds that both have asthma, and my wife does, and I do.&#8221; Resident Patrick Sheaney Felt added. Neighbors say they hope the findings of the study will be the evidence they need to shut down the terminal. That&#8217;s something they&#8217;ve been pushing for since a buildup of methane gas due to poor ventilation in the terminal caused a major explosion in December of 2021.&#8221;</p>
  967.  
  968.  
  969.  
  970. <p>All right, so I hope y&#8217;all will forgive me for that extended intro, but I hope you&#8217;ll agree that it was necessary to just give you a little bit of the context. We&#8217;re just scratching the surface here. And I&#8217;m going to leave it to our amazing panelists here to really bring you more up to speed. But I just wanted you to know what we&#8217;re talking about here in case you have not been following, or have not heard, or seen what&#8217;s been going on in South Baltimore all these years. And that&#8217;s going to be a running theme as we continue to investigate the causes and the extent of America&#8217;s sacrifice zones, is that, every zone has a unique story. Everyone has a confluence of factors contributing to the pollution and all of that stuff, but the larger problems that are affecting our communities are very much interconnected.</p>
  971.  
  972.  
  973.  
  974. <p>And in fact, a lot of the times it&#8217;s the same companies, like the railroads, whether they&#8217;re derailing and poisoning communities like East Palestine, or whether CSX is getting cold dust over everybody in South Baltimore because they&#8217;re not covering their goddamn coal trucks. Pardon my French, right? I mean, this is how these issues are connected even if the stories themselves are distinct.</p>
  975.  
  976.  
  977.  
  978. <p>So, anyway, I&#8217;m going to shut up. You guys have heard enough from me. I want to turn it back over to our panel since we are lucky enough to have folks here on the call. And I wanted to just go back around the table and ask if we could just fill in more of those gaps for listeners. Let&#8217;s start where we are right now in the year of our Lord 2024 and maybe like the past year. For folks who are maybe just learning about what y&#8217;all have been going through all this time, what do you think they most need to know about what you are living through right now? And then, in the next round around the table, we&#8217;ll dig into how we got here. Dave, take it away. And then, whenever Dave&#8217;s done, Tiffany, go ahead and hop in.</p>
  979.  
  980.  
  981.  
  982. <p>David Jones:</p>
  983.  
  984.  
  985.  
  986. <p>One of the crazy things that I want people to realize is that this can affect anyone at any time. For people who don&#8217;t believe that this stuff will never affect you, let me tell you, you got another thing coming. And East Palestine is a prime example. This was a bustling community, thriving community, generational community, very well put together community, just like a lot of communities out there that are not affected by these things. And in the blink of an eye can all be taken away from you. And, people don&#8217;t realize we live in these bubbles and we think that nothing can touch us, but we have trucks that drive down the road with chemicals that we have no clue what&#8217;s in. And then, in the blink of an eye, something could go off. This stuff happens regularly to the point where most people, because, and excuse my language, we&#8217;re too fucking enthralled in these phones, in this technology to get our heads out of our asses and realize that there&#8217;s a lot more going on around us and it really affects people in a terrible way.</p>
  987.  
  988.  
  989.  
  990. <p>I mean, to go to this climate thing that Meg just had, and to hear someone from East Palestine basically describe how their family was just torn apart from this injustice. And then, for someone like the EPA who&#8217;s supposed to protect us and protect them, to tell them, &#8220;What you&#8217;re saying is not right. And there&#8217;s nothing wrong here.&#8221; This woman gave this testimony and said that all of her hair fell out. Her children are getting rashes and unexplained symptoms. Her father-in-law has had several respiratory issues and had to be hospitalized. And, it&#8217;s so crazy to think that they had to go through this when they&#8217;re not used to it. And then, to think what we&#8217;ve had to go through growing up, and also how long this has been going on, and it&#8217;s generational. And then, to hear crazy things like numbers that are going around, like CSX is trying to give them $600 million to fix the problem. That&#8217;s not enough. I&#8217;m sorry, but it&#8217;s not. And it&#8217;s really dividing that community.</p>
  991.  
  992.  
  993.  
  994. <p>And then, you have communities like mine with the incinerator. There&#8217;s a four-year investigation on the medical waste incinerator. $1,750,000 fine. And for the people who are supposed to make sure our health and safety is there to say it took four years to do this and that that&#8217;s the largest fine in Maryland history is disgusting. And then, for the community to have to further the investigation on that, because these entities are not doing it. MDE, EPA, our governor, our city council, our mayor, all these politicians, our senators, our representatives, it&#8217;s disgusting. I mean, we just got testimony from the community at a city council hearing on the fact that there was 27 more instances in 27 days of this medical waste incinerator doing the wrong things. And I think we ended up recording 127 incidents and they had another million dollar fine.</p>
  995.  
  996.  
  997.  
  998. <p>And this company has already taken new owners for this company and they vowed that these things would be changed and they&#8217;re not. And the reason they&#8217;re not is because like Ms. Angie said, and everyone else has said, profits are more important than people&#8217;s health and safety. We are low-end commodities if anything. And, if it doesn&#8217;t hurt the shareholders and it doesn&#8217;t hurt the bottom line, it doesn&#8217;t matter. And it&#8217;s disgraceful. It really is. And, it&#8217;s very disheartening. We were at a meeting the other night for the association and I&#8217;m not a very emotional guy, I really don&#8217;t try to show my emotions, but I lost it. I&#8217;m dealing with health issues for the first time in my life. I had COVID, and I have long COVID, because of that I just got shingles, and I&#8217;ve never been an unhealthy person.</p>
  999.  
  1000.  
  1001.  
  1002. <p>So to walk out into my neighborhood to get fresh air, and when I take a deep breath in, I&#8217;m choking and I&#8217;m wanting to throw up, and I can&#8217;t get that is disgusting. And then, the fact that I&#8217;ve never been able to relate what other people in the community have talked about and now I can. So, it very much drives home for me now.</p>
  1003.  
  1004.  
  1005.  
  1006. <p>Tiffany Thompson:</p>
  1007.  
  1008.  
  1009.  
  1010. <p>Okay. So piggybacking what Dave said about people living in bubbles. I lived in a bubble for the longest time, as I said&#8230; Let me start from what I&#8217;m experiencing now. I&#8217;m experiencing regular weekly exposure to different unpleasant odors and smells in my community. The smoke going up from medical waste incinerator, the coal nearby the houses. So that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re dealing with now. And unbeknownst to me, as Dave said, people lived in bubbles and don&#8217;t think it can happen to him. And to piggyback of both him and Angela spoke about. I grew up in Cherry Hill and my backyard were train tracks, where CSX transported coal and other things down. Growing up, I didn&#8217;t know it was dangerous. We used to cross those road trains when they would stop to get to the grocery store in Baltimore County, because that was closer to our house and it was better for us to shop there than in our own community.</p>
  1011.  
  1012.  
  1013.  
  1014. <p>So, we would cross those tracks, touch the coal trains, sometimes pick up the coal off the tracks, because we weren&#8217;t taught that that was unhealthy. We didn&#8217;t know any better. And I guess, our parents didn&#8217;t either, because it was something that was normal for us. And, as of today, the tracks are still there, coal still being transported. We were out there a couple of weeks ago and saw a train going down with coal. So, nothing has changed within the last 50, 60 years regarding that. But, the only difference is now that I know it&#8217;s unhealthy, I try to help educate others in that community as well as Curtis Bay, because you are walking around wondering why everybody has breathing issues, why these children are coming up with asthma when it&#8217;s not always a family trait, it&#8217;s because the conditions has worsened.</p>
  1015.  
  1016.  
  1017.  
  1018. <p>And, I mean, it&#8217;s sad to say, I know so many people walking around with oxygen tanks. And like Dave said, he&#8217;s come out to get fresh air, I&#8217;ve learned since I&#8217;ve lived in Curtis Bay to not take deep breaths, breathe, but not take deep breaths. And when you leave Curtis Bay, you leave the South Baltimore area, you can tell the difference in the air. You feel it and you smell it sometimes. Coming from North&#8230; What is it? Rosedale coming down 95. The closer you get to South Baltimore, the more noticeable the change in air quality is. And that&#8217;s something that shouldn&#8217;t be. So again, like I said, I lived in a bubble, because I didn&#8217;t know. I just figured, &#8220;Well, I don&#8217;t live there. It didn&#8217;t affect me.&#8221; But it did affect me where I was living, which was probably a mile from here, a mile, two from here. I was heavily affected and didn&#8217;t know.</p>
  1019.  
  1020.  
  1021.  
  1022. <p>David Jones:</p>
  1023.  
  1024.  
  1025.  
  1026. <p>And just one more thing also, as far as living in that bubble, and most people don&#8217;t think about, they are literally building houses around here on old landfills that people don&#8217;t know. They are literally building multimillion dollar homes in Pasadena on the Anne Arundel County line that is less than three quarters of a mile from that medical waste incinerator. They&#8217;re building these new communities that people have no clue what they are buying into. And this is acceptable. And I just don&#8217;t understand it. I mean, if you go over&#8230; And again, I&#8217;m probably going to say it wrong, I think it&#8217;s Tanya Yard, or Tiny Yard, or something like that, it&#8217;s over off of Fort Smallwood Road, there&#8217;s a huge community. I mean, they&#8217;ve literally built probably more than 2000 homes over there, if not more. And for these people to be putting this investment into a community that they don&#8217;t know what is happening is disgusting.</p>
  1027.  
  1028.  
  1029.  
  1030. <p>Carlos Sanchez:</p>
  1031.  
  1032.  
  1033.  
  1034. <p>And, just to add on to what David and Ms. Tiffany said so far, just touch base on what David was saying, it&#8217;s such a generational struggle. There&#8217;s been a petition from 11 years ago where community members from Curtis Bay were having the same issue that we&#8217;re having now, coal dust getting into the community. And, that petition where we were seeing it, there were stuff that they were asking for that we&#8217;re asking for now, which was some up-to-date system or something to be placed so that coal is not getting into the community, because there is no safe level of coal dust or particulate matter that people should be breathing in. And, for those who may not know, particulate matter is just super small particles that you can&#8217;t see. And, the test PM, which is particulate matter. And then, when you think about the size of the particle, it could be 2.5, 10, stuff like that.</p>
  1035.  
  1036.  
  1037.  
  1038. <p>And, during that petition, they were asking to be monitoring, to have something to be said, so that coal dust not blow into the community. And comparing that to what we have now, which is practically nothing, we can see that those residents were ignored, right? And, even though, we were presenting this to MDE and residents like Dave, and Tiffany, and everybody in Curtis Bay, they were expressing their concerns, because they were living so close to this open air coal terminal as well as the rec center. There is the Curtis Bay Rec Center, which is one of the very few public buildings in the heart of the community.</p>
  1039.  
  1040.  
  1041.  
  1042. <p>It&#8217;s less than 1000 feet away from that open air coal pile. And that&#8217;s where people play bingo. They go there to vote. Kids go to play and hang out. And they express their concerns for decades. And yet, they were being ignored. And, it got to the point where they were ignored, it wasn&#8217;t even brought to attention until back in December, 2021 where that facility exploded. And there was coal dust all around the community. And, that was really eye-opening for MDE and stuff to actually start paying attention. And, that was as well frustrating, because to some extent, because at the end of the day, you don&#8217;t need a coal explosion to see that in the community. And that is something that many residents were expressing prior to that explosion. On a daily basis, they see this dark coal dust&#8230; They assume [inaudible 00:33:58] coal dust inside of their homes, to the point where they feel imprisoned in their own homes.</p>
  1043.  
  1044.  
  1045.  
  1046. <p>And I don&#8217;t know about other people, but for me, a home is somewhere where you can be free, feel safe, and thinking and imagining that you&#8217;re not even safe in your own home and can&#8217;t even open your windows, that is just something that has to be changed. And, just to add a bunch more, it&#8217;s not just the terminal. It&#8217;s a lot of things and a lot of facilities, like they&#8217;ve mentioned, the medical waste incinerator, that&#8217;s another issue. In Curtis Bay alone, there&#8217;s 70 air polluters in Curtis Bay. And, that is just something that cannot be in communities, that should not be allowed to be in communities where people live and try to have a place to come home, despite who was there first, which industry or community. The thing is that there&#8217;s people living there, there&#8217;s lives at risk, there&#8217;s kids at risk, and that should not be the case where we are having facilities like the open air coal terminal affecting the community. It&#8217;s the community and the people&#8217;s health should be first, not money should be the priority. The priority should be people&#8217;s health.</p>
  1047.  
  1048.  
  1049.  
  1050. <p>Angela Smothers:</p>
  1051.  
  1052.  
  1053.  
  1054. <p>Right now, with so many community members. And I did hear Dave say, I&#8217;m currently now required and prescribed medication due to&#8230; I kept thinking I was having an ear infection, but then when I get to the doctors, she would check me out and nothing would be wrong. I was like, &#8220;But something is, because when I drink, it&#8217;s just so painful.&#8221; And, she said, &#8220;It&#8217;s allergy.&#8221; I never had any type of medical issues. But now, without this medication, all of this mucus is forming in my nostrils and the back trying to&#8230; And I literally wake up gagging, because you know what I mean? I just don&#8217;t want to put it in my system. So I have to bring it up. And, I mean, for the last couple of years, I mean, I&#8217;ve been otherwise healthy. But now, it has really taken a toll on my body where I&#8217;ve had to not only take it every day, my doctor have had to increase the dosage due to this. You know what I mean?</p>
  1055.  
  1056.  
  1057.  
  1058. <p>And, it&#8217;s not allergy, it&#8217;s not so whatever these toxins is in the air, it has definitely taken a toll, not just with myself, many people in the community has passed away and suffering with symptoms either like mines or similar, but they&#8217;re all respiratory illnesses that, you know what I mean, a lot of community members, out of the clear blue sky, but it really isn&#8217;t out of the clear blue sky. It&#8217;s out of the black dusty sky that has&#8230; I mean, we&#8217;ve had to live in and through for so many years. So, we just got to do something about it. We need for it to stop sooner than later.</p>
  1059.  
  1060.  
  1061.  
  1062. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  1063.  
  1064.  
  1065.  
  1066. <p>Well, I&#8217;m feeling so many things as I imagine our listeners are, right? And, I guess I&#8217;m just more than anything so angry hearing this, right? As I&#8217;ve been angry hearing the stories of folks from East Palestine, as I&#8217;ve been angry reading about and listening to communities in Louisiana and Cancer Alley, right? Angry as I&#8217;ve been learning more about all the communities across the country, from North Carolina to Colorado who are all being pumped full of PFAS and forever chemicals. It&#8217;s like, &#8220;Holy shit. This is everywhere. And it&#8217;s been happening around all of us.&#8221; And, I&#8217;m angry because I also know the way that our media, and that these companies, and often our own government respond to these dire and serious issues that residents and working people like yourselves are raising. They&#8217;ll say, &#8220;Well, how do you know it&#8217;s from the coal cars? It could be because you smoked for a year when in your 20s.&#8221; Right? The burden of proof is on you all.</p>
  1067.  
  1068.  
  1069.  
  1070. <p>Even though, again, for folks I guess who don&#8217;t live in Baltimore, I&#8217;ve driven to Curtis Bay, I&#8217;ve gone there, I&#8217;ve talked to some of these folks in person. Dave has shown me pictures of the stuff he and his neighbors are coughing up on a day-to-day basis. I&#8217;ve seen those CSX locomotives that go for miles that have rail car after rail car filled with coal and nothing covering it. I&#8217;ve seen the coal dust blowing off of it, that gets in people&#8217;s lungs. And as we&#8217;ve talked about, it&#8217;s not just the coal, it&#8217;s not just the rail terminal. It is a toxic soup of pollutants that are just blasting into homes, into people&#8217;s faces, in their lungs, into their children&#8217;s lungs day in and day out. And, this is the way that our communities just get gradually poisoned.</p>
  1071.  
  1072.  
  1073.  
  1074. <p>And then, when we start feeling those effects and start trying to raise these issues, it&#8217;s all a big like, &#8220;Well, how do you know it was this corporation that caused that? Or maybe it&#8217;s just a family illness that you&#8217;re dealing with.&#8221; It&#8217;s never the obvious culprit&#8217;s fault. It&#8217;s always on the residents to do this painstaking years-long work to prove what we all already know.</p>
  1075.  
  1076.  
  1077.  
  1078. <p>And that&#8217;s such a huge part of the imbalance here, whether you&#8217;re talking about East Palestine, Cancer Alley, or South Baltimore, that is another thing that connects these struggles, right? And I mean, I&#8217;ve already said it to you all before we started recording, I&#8217;m going to say it here for everyone listening, this is not the last time we&#8217;re going to be talking with folks living in South Baltimore. This is just the beginning. So I don&#8217;t want to ask our amazing guests to try to give everyone the whole story in one hour of conversation here. But I want to just go around the table again and ask if y&#8217;all could say a little bit more about how we got here, what you as longtime residents have seen over the decades, how you&#8217;ve seen your communities change, how the response from the government, and the media, and these industries has changed over time. I guess, just give folks a little more of a sense of how far back this goes and how you yourself have seen your homes change in that time.</p>
  1079.  
  1080.  
  1081.  
  1082. <p>Angela Smothers:</p>
  1083.  
  1084.  
  1085.  
  1086. <p>Let me start by saying, I&#8217;m a non-smoker. I&#8217;ve never smoked at all. Detested throughout the years when conversations have been had with the railway owners, we weren&#8217;t trying to be unreasonable. It&#8217;s not just as simple as picking up a spoon, sitting it down. We know the rail train&#8230; I mean, you know the train tracks are not going to move. We just ask that you give&#8230; You know what I mean? Be considerate you. You know what I mean, you are infecting. You are causing so much harm and shortening of life to so many people, I mean, worldwide. So we just ask that you, you know what I mean, just transport your poison in a safer manner, only to be told that, &#8220;Oh, we were here first. We were here first.&#8221; So, throughout the years, and when Carlos, and the crew did their studying for the test, I mean, I chuckled, because I was thinking, &#8220;Oh, I&#8217;m dirty.&#8221; You know what I mean? I was trying to clean up before they come to do their tests thinking&#8230; You know what I mean?</p>
  1087.  
  1088.  
  1089.  
  1090. <p>And I felt horrible, because all of these years, I used to make my kids&#8230; The windowsill, I live high up, and I used to be like, &#8220;How in the world is this black dirt getting in the windowsills?&#8221; And lo and behold, I mean, I guess, I could have had a V8, that commercial. You know what I mean? All of this time, until this project began, I never&#8230; That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m so grateful and will continue working, because all of these years I had no knowledge. I mean, I remember, but I just did not put two and two together, until I really&#8230; I mean, I guess, I&#8217;ve been living through it, and you know what I mean? But now, thanks to Carlos and everyone that just pulled me in and made me&#8230; You know what I mean? In on the project with trying to get safer practices for us, I wouldn&#8217;t even have given it a second thought, because of previous attempts to get some safer practices in play.</p>
  1091.  
  1092.  
  1093.  
  1094. <p>But, never, never would I have even imagined without the crew that I&#8217;m so grateful for and thankful that it&#8217;s late, but not too late, that I believe us pulling together, we&#8217;re going to get some satisfaction. We&#8217;re just going to keep on and keep on, and you know what I mean? I&#8217;m just grateful that it made me realize I wasn&#8217;t dirty. Okay, go ahead, Dave.</p>
  1095.  
  1096.  
  1097.  
  1098. <p>David Jones:</p>
  1099.  
  1100.  
  1101.  
  1102. <p>So, definitely, I agree with Ms. Angela. That&#8217;s how a lot of people feel. Me and my wife, you can ask pretty much anyway, we&#8217;re clean freaks. Because we have to deal with this dirt all the time, it does, it makes you feel like you&#8217;re a dirty person. And, I get people that come in here all the time and they&#8217;re like, &#8220;Your house is immaculate.&#8221; And I&#8217;m like, &#8220;Not to us, it&#8217;s not, because there&#8217;s dirt everywhere.&#8221; It&#8217;s just, you clean your house from top to bottom, and then you come back in a couple days and it&#8217;s just dirt again and there&#8217;s dust everywhere. And, it&#8217;s so gut-wrenching. And, like she said, it makes you feel like you&#8217;re just a dirty person.</p>
  1103.  
  1104.  
  1105.  
  1106. <p>And then, on top of that, you asked how we got here. We got here because these industries, yes, they were here first. I&#8217;m not going to say they weren&#8217;t. Industries were built around the waterways, because it was the easiest accessibility for them to get goods to them and to ship their goods. And also for them to pollute, believe it or not. They could dump a lot of this stuff in the waterways.</p>
  1107.  
  1108.  
  1109.  
  1110. <p>But CSX, that&#8217;s a big thing they say is that they were here first. &#8220;Okay, you were here first, but guess what you brought being here first? You brought people, and you brought families, and you brought generations that built neighborhoods around your industry in order to make your industry successful. And all you&#8217;ve done is looked at these people as commodities and people that are basically disposable to you, because there&#8217;s so many people.&#8221; And it&#8217;s disgusting. It is beyond disgusting. And, to think that this has been going on now just with CSX&#8230; CSX has been here 130 years. So, 130 years of disinvestment in a community and just plaguing the community worse and worse. And, I&#8217;m 44-years-old almost, and I can&#8217;t even see back 130 years ago. So God knows what they were doing in the beginning stages when they were here to this community, and what that has is an impact for generations to come. Hearing that at some point, Grace Chemical, during the Manhattan Project, they were doing stuff for that, for the atomic bomb. And come to find out that they have radioactive isotopes buried under their plants.</p>
  1111.  
  1112.  
  1113.  
  1114. <p>Your mind can&#8217;t wrap around some of these injustices and how they&#8217;ve just been swept under the rug, and kept quiet, and that people think it&#8217;s okay. I mean, Bethlehem Steel&#8217;s another one. My grandfather worked there his whole life. Same thing, just trying to provide a good wage for him and his family and take care of his family. He died from mesothelioma from working there. And then, for them to say, &#8220;Nothing can be built on this property ever. If it ever was, we&#8217;d have to dig 100 feet down and take all these chemicals, all these PFAS, all these isotopes, everything out, and burn it, and then bring that back in here.&#8221; They dug down 30 feet and just built all those new warehouses over there. God knows what those people are going to be ended up dealing with. They&#8217;re now putting the wind turbine plan over there to build the new turbines, the wind turbines for the whole nation. It blows your mind on what these people do at the expense of people&#8217;s lives and health and safety over profitability.</p>
  1115.  
  1116.  
  1117.  
  1118. <p>Tiffany Thompson:</p>
  1119.  
  1120.  
  1121.  
  1122. <p>I concur with what Dave and Ms. Angie said. And I can now go easy on my children because I&#8217;m always asking about the dust. And, &#8220;Oh God, I just cleaned them windows. Can&#8217;t y&#8217;all go behind me and clean.&#8221; So, that I can now go easy on them. Because I was like, &#8220;Gosh, we probably the only house on this block that windows look like that.&#8221; Not looking at anybody, but that&#8217;s just me, because I&#8217;m used to cleaning. We will continue to stick together, support one another in this battle to-</p>
  1123.  
  1124.  
  1125.  
  1126. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  1127.  
  1128.  
  1129.  
  1130. <p>Oh, and just-</p>
  1131.  
  1132.  
  1133.  
  1134. <p>Tiffany Thompson:</p>
  1135.  
  1136.  
  1137.  
  1138. <p>&#8230; Go ahead.</p>
  1139.  
  1140.  
  1141.  
  1142. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  1143.  
  1144.  
  1145.  
  1146. <p>&#8230; Oh, sorry. I was just going to say if you had any other thoughts about how you&#8217;ve seen things change over time or just has it gotten worse? Has the industry or the government, have they cared less over time? Just anything you want to say about that.</p>
  1147.  
  1148.  
  1149.  
  1150. <p>David Jones:</p>
  1151.  
  1152.  
  1153.  
  1154. <p>There&#8217;s been no change. That&#8217;s the problem. There is no change. All they do now is they gaslight in a sense. They say they&#8217;re going to do stuff, but they really don&#8217;t.</p>
  1155.  
  1156.  
  1157.  
  1158. <p>Tiffany Thompson:</p>
  1159.  
  1160.  
  1161.  
  1162. <p>Yeah, yeah. And I&#8217;ll only say worse, because now I realize it. I see it, I understand what&#8217;s going on. And I guess, what they have been doing has increased. So I would say, it&#8217;s gotten worse. Even with the transporting of medical waste and other stuff, they&#8217;ve increased their distance, they&#8217;ve increased their loads, so it gets worse. But again, we&#8217;re going to continue as the South Baltimore communities to stick together, and fight, and leave no community behind. They might get tired before we get tired.</p>
  1163.  
  1164.  
  1165.  
  1166. <p>Carlos Sanchez:</p>
  1167.  
  1168.  
  1169.  
  1170. <p>Not much to add. Ms. Tiffany definitely really ended that strongly. I don&#8217;t know anything else to add to that. But, I just agree with everything said. Nothing has been changed and this fight is long from being over.</p>
  1171.  
  1172.  
  1173.  
  1174. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  1175.  
  1176.  
  1177.  
  1178. <p>Well, and Carlos, if I could just quickly ask, what is it like being a young person growing up in this? And realizing that, &#8220;Oh, the places I&#8217;ve been playing in have been filled with coal dust and toxic fumes this whole time&#8221;?</p>
  1179.  
  1180.  
  1181.  
  1182. <p>Carlos Sanchez:</p>
  1183.  
  1184.  
  1185.  
  1186. <p>Yeah, I mean, first thing comes to mind every time I get asked that question is frustration. Seeing how the world actually works. It&#8217;s not all nice and day outside. But once you start seeing what you&#8217;re breathing in and what you&#8217;re actually around and how other people have it compared to you when, like people in Roland Park, and seeing that the choice or that&#8230; What&#8217;s it called? Yeah, that decision makers, that decision is not up to us, but those who are supposed to be taking care of us, and they&#8217;re refusing to do anything, it&#8217;s just really frustrating.</p>
  1187.  
  1188.  
  1189.  
  1190. <p>But, as well, it also keeps me being able to work with other youth and working within the communities and seeing the work that I&#8217;m doing has an impact, not just on trying to see the end goal, it motivates me to get going, like Ms. Tiffany said, working together and seeing and fighting for what the goal is, which is getting these communities to get what they deserve basically, fresh air, cleaner communities, permanent affordable housing, and not having to worry about what they&#8217;re breathing in. And for those generations to come after me, being able to grow up not having to care about what they&#8217;re breathing in, and not having to be doing what I&#8217;m doing and fighting for these basic human rights. I think that&#8217;s all I have to add.</p>
  1191.  
  1192.  
  1193.  
  1194. <p>Angela Smothers:</p>
  1195.  
  1196.  
  1197.  
  1198. <p>Can I say one other thing real fast? I know in Curtis Bay, just like in Mount Winans, isn&#8217;t it quite ironic, the playgrounds are built right at the tip of where these trains are passing with their poisoning, there&#8217;s always a playground? You know what I mean? Right there, our playground and basketball court, which is always occupied by the kids or people playing basketball. And, you know what I mean? I don&#8217;t understand why&#8230; I mean, I&#8217;m glad to have the support of some of our community members. But, higher up, they need to stop. I mean, I don&#8217;t want to misspeak and say that they don&#8217;t care, but I believe more need to be done to put a stop to it. I mean, you know what I mean? To insist, pull back permits, stop. You know what I mean? Fine them, do whatever it deems necessary, because the cost of what it takes to operate in a safer manner, I think they probably eat that away. You know what I mean? And won&#8217;t even miss it. So, greed and their profit is sickening. It&#8217;s definitely sickening.</p>
  1199.  
  1200.  
  1201.  
  1202. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  1203.  
  1204.  
  1205.  
  1206. <p>And it&#8217;s making all of us sick, right?</p>
  1207.  
  1208.  
  1209.  
  1210. <p>Angela Smothers:</p>
  1211.  
  1212.  
  1213.  
  1214. <p>Even sicker. Even sicker.</p>
  1215.  
  1216.  
  1217.  
  1218. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  1219.  
  1220.  
  1221.  
  1222. <p>Even sicker. Yeah. I mean, again, whether we&#8217;re talking about industrial pollution, whether we&#8217;re talking about war, whether we&#8217;re talking about climate change, the people in charge have our society&#8217;s foot on the gas going in the wrong damn direction, while we&#8217;re all screaming, &#8220;Hey, we need to be going that way.&#8221; Right? &#8220;We need to be cutting this stuff back, not doubling down.&#8221; And, that&#8217;s why we all need to be involved in this fight. That&#8217;s why I am begging folks listening to this, don&#8217;t just hear this as another sad story that&#8217;s happening somewhere else where you don&#8217;t live. I need you to see this and understand this as, A, fundamental and unforgivable injustice that is being done to our fellow workers. For that reason alone, we should care and we should be involved. But also, for our own self-preservation, for the preservation of our own children, and their children, and their planet, right, that they&#8217;re going to be living on.</p>
  1223.  
  1224.  
  1225.  
  1226. <p>We all need to be getting involved in this fight, because this is where we are all headed. This is where working-class communities across this country and across the world are headed. And, we need to stop this freight train. And the people in positions of power are not going to do it on their own. CSX, Norfolk Southern, the legislators in Washington or Annapolis, they&#8217;re not all going to just give us the world that we want and deserve clearly. So we got to fight for it, and we got to fight together, and we got to bring our struggles together, and fight as a coalition of the forgotten communities of this world saying, &#8220;We will be forgotten no more. Your fight is our fight.&#8221; And on that note, I&#8217;ve kept y&#8217;all longer than I said I was going to, and I want to be respectful of everyone&#8217;s time.</p>
  1227.  
  1228.  
  1229.  
  1230. <p>And as I said, we are absolutely going to do more conversations on this show with folks in Curtis Bay, across South Baltimore, including folks on this call. So yeah, please, you guys, stay tuned. We&#8217;re going to have more for you. But, while we wrap up this episode, I just wanted to go around the table one more time quickly and ask if y&#8217;all could say, A, again, if you have any final parting messages to folks listening to this, what you want to impress upon them about what y&#8217;all are going through and why folks listening should need to care about this and get involved. And also, are there any concrete things that people can do right now to help? What can folks living in and around Baltimore do to help? And what can folks around the country do to help? And then, we&#8217;ll close out.</p>
  1231.  
  1232.  
  1233.  
  1234. <p>Tiffany Thompson:</p>
  1235.  
  1236.  
  1237.  
  1238. <p>Okay. For one, they can encourage their local hospitals to not send their medical waste to Curtis Bay and have it sent somewhere else, or away from our low-income black and brown neighborhoods. They can help just support us, and our fight to end coal. And again, to encourage their hospitals to send their medical waste elsewhere and write other hospitals that&#8217;s not even in our state to stop sending their medical waste here, because it&#8217;s killing our residents. It&#8217;s hurting our children, and it&#8217;s harming our environment.</p>
  1239.  
  1240.  
  1241.  
  1242. <p>David Jones:</p>
  1243.  
  1244.  
  1245.  
  1246. <p>I think, number one for me is that people need to get their heads out of their asses, and they need to learn how to educate themselves on the demographics of the people who they&#8217;re voting into these positions of power do not care about us. They only care about themselves and forwarding their careers and their special interests. And when I say special interests, I mean, industry because that&#8217;s who they work for. And I&#8217;m going to say something right now, and I truly mean this, and I might only be speaking for myself, but for me and my community, we&#8217;re not looking for people to feel sorry for us, that&#8217;s not what we want here. We want people to just understand that this is generational, people have built lives here, and for people like one of our incumbents who&#8217;s trying to be reelected, which is&#8230;</p>
  1247.  
  1248.  
  1249.  
  1250. <p>For Sheila Dixon to say that she&#8217;s for the people and she wants to change the dynamics of Baltimore City and South Baltimore. And for her to say recently at a meeting she had with some South Baltimore residents, basically when asked, &#8220;What would you do to help with the disadvantaged issues of industry and other things in the community of Brooklyn, and Curtis Bay, and other communities of South Baltimore?&#8221; For her to say, &#8220;These communities should just move.&#8221; Is disgusting. And, it&#8217;s not that simple. How would you like to work your whole life to live in a place&#8230; Again, this is not only my house, but this was my grandfather&#8217;s house. And then, put all this investment into it, and then be told that you need to just move and get pennies on the dollar for your house. If I lived anywhere else in the city, if you took this house and you put this house in Fed Hill that I live in, it would not be worth $100,000. It would be worth $500,000. And it&#8217;s disgusting.</p>
  1251.  
  1252.  
  1253.  
  1254. <p>And then, we have investors coming around here trying to buy these properties for pennies on a dollar to hold onto them, so that when industry does encroach, they can get big payoffs. It&#8217;s disgusting. So again, don&#8217;t feel sorry for me. Don&#8217;t feel sorry for my community, because I need you to realize that this could happen to you at any moment or anyone you love.</p>
  1255.  
  1256.  
  1257.  
  1258. <p>Angela Smothers:</p>
  1259.  
  1260.  
  1261.  
  1262. <p>I piggyback off of Dave. I don&#8217;t want anyone to feel sorry for me or this community. Just support us. I want more community members. I mean, I know they&#8217;re tired from the years of requesting and doing what we are doing now, but you&#8217;ve come this far, you&#8217;re still here. As long as you have breath in your body, don&#8217;t give up, join the fight, because the more of us speak out, tell our truth, and what we are experiencing while we are here, how many people we&#8217;ve lost, we just have to keep fighting. I mean, it didn&#8217;t happen overnight and you know what I mean? We&#8217;re just going to keep pushing forward until we get resolution. We have to.</p>
  1263.  
  1264.  
  1265.  
  1266. <p>And we just need everybody to understand, if it&#8217;s not happening to you, if you&#8217;re one of the fortunate that do not live in an area that is subjected to what we are being subjected to just do a family trace and somebody in your family, if not yet, just wait, they will. So, don&#8217;t wait until that happened. Anybody can see that we&#8217;re suffering and anybody that&#8217;s not choosing to put profit over people realize that this is a request that is plaguing so many people. And, if ever you had to fight for anything, this is a cause that is worth fighting for.</p>
  1267.  
  1268.  
  1269.  
  1270. <p>Carlos Sanchez:</p>
  1271.  
  1272.  
  1273.  
  1274. <p>I agree with everything that has been said. And, I also will add in that there is a petition that we&#8217;re trying to work with people and across the country to get EPA to require that the coal trains are covered. And so, if people could sign on to that, that would be really great. Or, if they want to work with us, that&#8217;s awesome too. We got to get those trains covered, because they go through South Baltimore and other communities, and that&#8217;s also affecting them with coal dust. So, yeah, I think I&#8217;ll leave it at that.</p>
  1275.  
  1276.  
  1277.  
  1278. <p>David Jones:</p>
  1279.  
  1280.  
  1281.  
  1282. <p>And not to cut anyone off, but to piggyback off of what Carlos just said, and Carlos is the one that brought this to my attention, I don&#8217;t know how many coal cars in a year come through my community and other communities, but there is literally 500 pounds of coal that is lost from every coal car. And if you could even begin to digest that or fathom that, because I can&#8217;t, it&#8217;s just unbelievable. And, to hear that in other states that there are literally people that take buckets and put them underneath of coal train railways and bridges and are literally catching coal the size of baseballs is just unconscionable. Again, I more than anything want to just thank everybody who&#8217;s on this podcast today that&#8217;s in this fight with me, and that continues to give it their all.</p>
  1283.  
  1284.  
  1285.  
  1286. <p>And, for people to understand that this is almost like a second or third job for us because we do have lives, but this definitely encroaches tremendously into our lives on a day-to-day basis. Most people get to go home, and relax, and do this, and do that. For us, we don&#8217;t have that ability. We are still in this fight. And, for me, for instance, yesterday, just trying to go down and take some pictures to document the injustices in my community, and then being accosted by CSX workers, and a federal police officer, and trying to be intimidated for something that I should not be intimidated for, and for me to feel like I&#8217;m the person who&#8217;s in the wrong is disgusting.</p>
  1287.  
  1288.  
  1289.  
  1290. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  1291.  
  1292.  
  1293.  
  1294. <p>All right, gang. That&#8217;s going to wrap things up for us this week. I want to thank our amazing panel of guests from across South Baltimore, Dave, Ms. Angela, Ms. Tiffany, Angie, and Carlos. I also want to thank the brilliant and amazing Nicole Fabricant for putting us in touch. Shout out to Nikki. And as always, I want to thank you all for listening and thank you for caring. We&#8217;ve got more coverage coming your way on the industrial sacrifice zone that South Baltimore has become and about the working people living in these communities who are fighting back.</p>
  1295.  
  1296.  
  1297.  
  1298. <p>But follow the links in the show notes if you want to learn more about this story and about how you can get involved in that fight. We&#8217;ll see you all back here next week for another episode of Working People. And if you cannot wait that long, then just go subscribe to our Patreon and check out the awesome bonus episodes that we&#8217;ve got there waiting for you and our patrons. And go explore all the other great work that we&#8217;re doing at The Real News Network, where we do grassroots journalism, lifting up the voices and stories from the front lines of struggle. Sign up for the Real News newsletter so you never miss a story, and help us do more work like this by going to therealnews.com/donate and becoming a supporter today. It really makes a difference. I&#8217;m Maximillian Alvarez. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Solidarity forever.</p>
  1299. ]]></content:encoded>
  1303. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313621</post-id> </item>
  1304. <item>
  1305. <title>&#8216;We&#8217;re gonna win&#8217;: Alabama Mercedes workers begin UAW vote</title>
  1306. <link>https://therealnews.com/were-gonna-win-alabama-mercedes-workers-begin-uaw-vote</link>
  1308. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Jessica Corbett]]></dc:creator>
  1309. <pubDate>Tue, 14 May 2024 20:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
  1310. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  1311. <category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
  1312. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  1313. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  1314. <category><![CDATA[labor]]></category>
  1315. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  1316. <category><![CDATA[UAW]]></category>
  1317. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313555</guid>
  1318.  
  1319. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="UAW members attend a rally in support of the labor union strike at the UAW Local 551 hall on the South Side on October 7, 2023 in Chicago, Illinois. Photo by Jim Vondruska/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1366&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1334&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>A victory in the Southern state, said one organizer, "would show workers across all different industries that they can stand up together and fight for more."]]></description>
  1320. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="UAW members attend a rally in support of the labor union strike at the UAW Local 551 hall on the South Side on October 7, 2023 in Chicago, Illinois. Photo by Jim Vondruska/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1366&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1334&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1712273403-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  1321. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:30% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="600" height="150" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=600%2C150&#038;ssl=1" alt="Common Dreams Logo" class="wp-image-268291 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=300%2C75&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=400&amp;ssl=1 400w" sizes="(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  1322. <p style="font-size:18px"><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/mercedes-plant-alabama" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Common Dreams</a> on May 13, 2024. It is shared here with permission under a Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0) license.</em></p>
  1323. </div></div>
  1324.  
  1325.  
  1326.  
  1327. <p class="has-drop-cap">From Monday through Friday, around 5,200 employees of Mercedes-Benz in Alabama will vote on whether to join the United Auto Workers—which has&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/with-us-workers-on-the-march-southern-states-take-aim-at-unions" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">set its sights</a>&nbsp;on the U.S. South after contract&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/uaw-contract-2023" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">wins</a>&nbsp;at the industry&#8217;s &#8220;Big Three&#8221; in Michigan last year.</p>
  1328.  
  1329.  
  1330.  
  1331. <p>While Republican&nbsp;<a href="https://www.al.com/opinion/2024/04/alabama-house-speaker-calls-uaw-a-dangerous-leech-in-op-ed-ahead-of-mercedes-plant-vote.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">leaders</a>&nbsp;in the state, including Gov.&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/what-is-united-auto-workers" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Kay Ivey</a>, and at least&nbsp;<a href="https://www.al.com/opinion/2024/05/op-ed-from-a-mercedes-benz-worker-uaw-is-not-right-for-alabama.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">one worker</a>&nbsp;have publicly attacked the unionization&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/mercedes-alabama-uaw" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">effort</a>, multiple Mercedes employees have signaled their support for the UAW going into this week&#8217;s voting at an assembly facility in Vance and battery plant in Woodstock.</p>
  1332.  
  1333.  
  1334.  
  1335. <p>&#8220;I&#8217;ve watched our company not keep up with the times,&#8221; Mercedes worker Brett Garrard recently&nbsp;<a href="https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2024/05/13/mercedes-benz-alabama-uaw-election/73600677007/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told</a>&nbsp;the&nbsp;<em>Detroit Free Press</em>. &#8220;We pray for fair wages, comparative wages inside the auto industry. Benefits packages have suffered throughout the years. My wife, herself, has stage four cancer. I&#8217;d like to see something implemented to maybe help our situation.&#8221;</p>
  1336.  
  1337.  
  1338.  
  1339. <p>David Johnston, who works at the Woodstock plant, has also cited medical concerns, <a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/edgarsten/2024/05/12/uaw-hopes-to-expand-its-ranks-as-alabama-mercedes-benz-workers-vote-on-union-membership/?sh=5c5b9bd715e8" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">telling</a><em> Forbes</em> that &#8220;I&#8217;m always in a medical hospital. I&#8217;m always sick. I need better healthcare. Plus, when I retire I&#8217;m not going to have any insurance until Medicare kicks in.&#8221;</p>
  1340.  
  1341.  
  1342.  
  1343. <p>Johnston is optimistic about the vote in Alabama. He pointed to Chattanooga, Tennessee, where Volkswagen plant employees last month overwhelmingly&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/chattanooga-uaw-election" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">voted</a>&nbsp;to join the UAW.</p>
  1344.  
  1345.  
  1346.  
  1347. <p>&#8220;I mean, hands down. I think we&#8217;re gonna win. We&#8217;re gonna win. Hopefully by a lot,&#8221; he said. &#8220;It seems like it&#8217;s gonna be a slam dunk just like Volkswagen. Everybody&#8217;s excited.&#8221;</p>
  1348.  
  1349.  
  1350.  
  1351. <p>Haeden Wright, a senior organizer for Jobs to Move America, <a href="https://www.al.com/news/2024/05/alabama-mercedes-benz-union-vote-begins-today-whats-at-stake-in-this-historic-labor-fight.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told</a><em> AL.com</em> that a win in Alamaba &#8220;would show workers across all different industries that they can stand up together and fight for more.&#8221;</p>
  1352.  
  1353.  
  1354.  
  1355. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  1356. <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Mercedes workers just want some time to work in the yard &amp; smell the roses. We&#39;re voting &quot;Union YES&quot; May 13-17 to take back our lives. ✅ 🌹🌹🌹 <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/StandUpMercedes?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#StandUpMercedes</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/StandUpUAW?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#StandUpUAW</a> <a href="https://t.co/cqd12jkuha">pic.twitter.com/cqd12jkuha</a></p>&mdash; UAW (@UAW) <a href="https://twitter.com/UAW/status/1790049991676838289?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 13, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
  1357. </div></figure>
  1358.  
  1359.  
  1360.  
  1361. <p>In comments to&nbsp;<em>The Guardian</em>, Mercedes employee Rick Webster similarly&nbsp;<a href="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/13/alabama-mercedes-workers-union-election-uaw" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">framed</a>&nbsp;this week&#8217;s vote as part of a larger battle.</p>
  1362.  
  1363.  
  1364.  
  1365. <p>&#8220;It&#8217;s time for Alabama workers to stand up and unite not just at Mercedes, but at Hyundai, Honda, and Toyota. It&#8217;s time for everybody to stand up and have a voice and we need to end the Alabama discount,&#8221; he&nbsp;<a href="https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/13/alabama-mercedes-workers-union-election-uaw" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a>, using an organizer term to highlight how workers in the state have subpar wages and benefits compared to their peers elsewhere in the country.</p>
  1366.  
  1367.  
  1368.  
  1369. <p>Webster also called out Mercedes&#8217; efforts to convince workers in Alabama not to vote in favor of joining the UAW—which has filed multiple union-busting complaints against the company with the National Labor Relations Board.</p>
  1370.  
  1371.  
  1372.  
  1373. <p>&#8220;It is a daily barrage of text messages, emails, and there&#8217;s an app we have for work for every kind of announcement you can think of and we&#8217;re getting two to three notifications daily. Every day before the shift, we have to sit in the team room and watch anti-union videos,&#8221; he explained. &#8220;It&#8217;s just been a constant barrage. Everybody is just sick and tired of it.&#8221;</p>
  1374.  
  1375.  
  1376.  
  1377. <p>Johnston <a href="https://www.npr.org/2024/05/13/1250200307/mercedes-benz-alabama-union-workers-vote" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told</a><em> NPR</em> that &#8220;the entire message in those meetings is <em>Vote no, vote no, vote no. We don&#8217;t think you need to do this. This is not what you want</em>.&#8221;</p>
  1378.  
  1379.  
  1380.  
  1381. <p>A company spokesperson has told multiple news outlets that Mercedes-Benz U.S. International &#8220;fully respects our team members&#8217; choice whether to unionize and we look forward to participating in the election process to ensure every team member has a chance to cast their own secret-ballot vote, as well as having access to the information necessary to make an informed choice.&#8221;</p>
  1382.  
  1383.  
  1384.  
  1385. <p>The United Auto Workers&nbsp;<a href="https://uaw.org/mercedes-al/#toggle-id-29" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">webpage</a>&nbsp;on the Alabama effort includes information about who is eligible to vote, how to participate, and workers&#8217; rights as well as the UAW&#8217;s responses to some of opponents&#8217; allegations against the union.</p>
  1386.  
  1387.  
  1388.  
  1389. <p>&#8220;Right now, Mercedes is doing whatever they can to discourage us. But voting yes for our union is a game-changer,&#8221; the UAW webpage says. &#8220;Once we vote yes, the company is legally required to sit down with us as equals to bargain a contract. Just like VW, Mercedes has negotiated union contracts with workers all around the world. We can win our union, our union contract, and our fair share right here in Alabama.&#8221;</p>
  1390. ]]></content:encoded>
  1394. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313555</post-id> </item>
  1395. <item>
  1396. <title>Nicaragua, 1980s. Revolution &#124; Under the Shadow, Episode 10, Part 1</title>
  1397. <link>https://therealnews.com/nicaragua-1980s-revolution-under-the-shadow-episode-10-part-1</link>
  1399. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Fox]]></dc:creator>
  1400. <pubDate>Tue, 14 May 2024 17:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
  1401. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  1402. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  1403. <category><![CDATA[Under the Shadow]]></category>
  1404. <category><![CDATA[Nicaragua]]></category>
  1405. <category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
  1406. <category><![CDATA[under the shadow]]></category>
  1407. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313535</guid>
  1408.  
  1409. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Members of a Sandinista &quot;Auto-Defense&quot; farming cooperative brandish AK-47s to defend against attacks by U.S.-backed Contra reblels, Esteli Department, Nicaragua. Photo by Scott Wallace/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>When the anti-imperialist Sandinista Revolution took power in Nicaragua from the Somoza family, the Reagan administration responded by funding the Contras.]]></description>
  1410. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Members of a Sandinista &quot;Auto-Defense&quot; farming cooperative brandish AK-47s to defend against attacks by U.S.-backed Contra reblels, Esteli Department, Nicaragua. Photo by Scott Wallace/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1153942882-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  1411. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  1412. <iframe title="Spotify Embed: Episode 10, Part 1 | Nicaragua, 1980s. Revolution" style="border-radius: 12px" width="100%" height="152" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture" loading="lazy" src="https://open.spotify.com/embed/episode/7gl8cZY9ynKd4oQirwB8v0?si=ee6d97d15ca2455f&#038;utm_source=oembed"></iframe>
  1413. </div></figure>
  1414.  
  1415.  
  1416.  
  1417. <p class="has-drop-cap">The 1979 Nicaraguan revolution that overthrew a brutal U.S.-backed dictator ushered in a wave of hope in the Central American country. The new Sandinista government launched literacy and healthcare campaigns, carried out land reform and promised to improving the lives of all.</p>
  1418.  
  1419.  
  1420.  
  1421. <p>But the United States, under president Ronald Reagan, feared the dominos would fall across Central America, and they unleashed assault on the country: paramilitary war, CIA attacks, economic blockade, and much more.</p>
  1422.  
  1423.  
  1424.  
  1425. <p>In this episode, host Michael Fox, walks by into the 1980s, to the overthrow of dictator Anastasio Somoza and the beginning of both the Sandinista government and the U.S. response.</p>
  1426.  
  1427.  
  1428.  
  1429. <p>This is Part 1, of episode 10.</p>
  1430.  
  1431.  
  1432.  
  1433. <p><a href="https://therealnews.com/under-the-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><em>Under the Shadow</em></a>&nbsp;is an investigative narrative podcast series that walks back in time, telling the story of the past by visiting momentous places in the present.</p>
  1434.  
  1435.  
  1436.  
  1437. <p>In each episode, host Michael Fox takes us to a location where something historic happened — a landmark of revolutionary struggle or foreign intervention. Today, it might look like a random street corner, a church, a mall, a monument, or a museum. But every place he takes us was once the site of history-making events that shook countries, impacted lives, and left deep marks on the world.</p>
  1438.  
  1439.  
  1440.  
  1441. <p>Hosted by Latin America-based journalist Michael Fox.</p>
  1442.  
  1443.  
  1444.  
  1445. <p>This podcast is produced in partnership between&nbsp;<a href="https://therealnews.com/under-the-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Real News Network</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a href="https://nacla.org/under-shadow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">NACLA</a>.</p>
  1446.  
  1447.  
  1448.  
  1449. <p>Guests: </p>
  1450.  
  1451.  
  1452.  
  1453. <p><a href="https://twitter.com/Alexander_Avina" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Alex Aviña</a><br><a href="https://twitter.com/w_i_robinson" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">William Robinson</a><br>Marvin Ortega Rodriguez<br><a href="https://twitter.com/ElinevanOmmen" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Eline Van Ommen</a><br><a href="https://twitter.com/peterkornbluh" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Peter Kornbluh</a></p>
  1454.  
  1455.  
  1456.  
  1457. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  1458. <p>Edited by Heather Gies.<br>Sound design by <a href="https://twitter.com/coletivocatarse" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Gustavo Türck</a>.<br>Theme music by&nbsp;<a href="https://open.spotify.com/artist/0nexDyQCZI89JH8zsYu5wa" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Monte Perdido </a>and Michael Fox<br>Other music from Blue Dot Sessions.</p>
  1459. </blockquote>
  1460.  
  1461.  
  1462.  
  1463. <p><strong>Additional links:</strong></p>
  1464.  
  1465.  
  1466.  
  1467. <ul>
  1468. <li>Follow and support journalist Michael Fox or <em>Under the Shadow</em> at <a href="https://www.patreon.com/mfox" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">https://www.patreon.com/mfox</a>. You can also see pictures and listen to full clips of Michael Fox’s music for this episode.</li>
  1469.  
  1470.  
  1471.  
  1472. <li>Support <a href="https://coletivocatarse.com.br/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Coletivo Catarse</a>, the media collective <em>Under the Shadow</em> sound engineer Gustavo Türck belongs to. Coletivo Catarse is currently dealing with devastating floods that have hit the state of Rio Grande do Sul.</li>
  1473.  
  1474.  
  1475.  
  1476. <li>Read Mike Fox&#8217;s recent coverage on the catastrophic flooding in Rio Grande do Sul from <a href="https://theworld.org/stories/2024/05/06/heavy-flooding-in-brazils-south-creates-havoc-for-residents" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">PRX</a> and <a href="https://nacla.org/brazil-floods-rio-grande-sul" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">NACLA</a>.</li>
  1477.  
  1478.  
  1479.  
  1480. <li>For Declassified documents on the U.S. contra war on Nicaragua, and Iran Contra, you can visit Peter Kornbluh&#8217;s National Security Archives <a href="https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/events/iran-contra-affair-1985-1994" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">here</a> and <a href="https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/iran/2016-11-25/iran-contra-affair-30-years-later-milestone-post-truth-politics" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">here</a>.</li>
  1481.  
  1482.  
  1483.  
  1484. <li>Eline van Ommen’s book, <em>Nicaragua Must Survive: Sandinista Revolutionary Diplomacy in the Global Cold War (University of California Press, 2023), </em>is available <a href="https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520390768/nicaragua-must-survive" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">here</a>.</li>
  1485.  
  1486.  
  1487.  
  1488. <li>For the 2007 documentary American Sandinista, you can visit the website of director <a href="https://jasonblalock.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Jason Blalock</a>. </li>
  1489.  
  1490.  
  1491.  
  1492. <li>Here are links to the 1980 documentaries about Nicaragua&#8217;s literacy campaign that I mention in this episode: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvOoGxEuqMw" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">La Salida</a> &amp; <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVRCL47rlJw" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">La Llegada</a></li>
  1493. </ul>
  1494.  
  1495.  
  1496.  
  1497. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  1498.  
  1499.  
  1500.  
  1501. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  1502.  
  1503.  
  1504.  
  1505. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Hi. I’m your host, Michael Fox.&nbsp;</p>
  1506.  
  1507.  
  1508.  
  1509. <p>You may have noticed that we are a week late releasing this episode. I apologize. We were slowed down by the heavy flooding in Southern Brazil. They&#8217;re actually calling it Brazil&#8217;s Katrina. More than 600,000 people have been pushed from their homes. And our incredible sound engineer Gustavo Türck, and the collective he works with Catarse, are in the thick of it, in Porto Alegre. I&#8217;ll add links to their work and some recent reporting of mine on the floods in the show notes.</p>
  1510.  
  1511.  
  1512.  
  1513. <p>Before we get started, I want to say a few more things. First, like Episode 7, about the 2009 Honduran coup, we have also decided to split today&#8217;s episode into two parts. Today we&#8217;ll look at the 1979 Nicaraguan revolution against dictator Anastasio Somoza and the beginning of both the Sandinista government and the US response to it. The next part will walk forward in time from there into the Iran Contra scandal of the 1980s.</p>
  1514.  
  1515.  
  1516.  
  1517. <p>The second thing I&#8217;d like to say is that this era is so important to remember. Nicaragua was pretty much ground zero for the US war on Central America in the 1980s. And yet, it’s been completely obscured by discussions over what that country represents today. That&#8217;s unfortunate, and it only benefits those who would rather conceal the past — Namely, the US government, which was responsible for so much damage, destruction, and the loss of tens of thousands of lives in Nicaragua throughout the 1980s.&nbsp;</p>
  1518.  
  1519.  
  1520.  
  1521. <p>Finally, as you can imagine, many portions of today&#8217;s episode deal with harsh themes from the US war on Nicaragua in the 1980s including killings, torture, and terror attacks. If you are sensitive to these things or you’re in the room with small children, you might want to consider another time to listen.&nbsp;</p>
  1522.  
  1523.  
  1524.  
  1525. <p>OK. Here’s the show…</p>
  1526.  
  1527.  
  1528.  
  1529. <p>So in June 2023, my family and I visited the Nicaraguan town of Leon. It&#8217;s the second largest city in the country after Managua. It was founded 500 years ago by the Spanish conquistador Francisco Hernández de Córdoba on land inhabited by the Chorotegas Indigenous people. Leon was the first capital of Nicaragua — And it was a former base for the Liberals, who often fought for power against the Conservatives in Granada.</p>
  1530.  
  1531.  
  1532.  
  1533. <p>Leon&#8217;s top attraction is its iconic cathedral. It&#8217;s the largest in Central America, and if you go up to the roof, the architecture of stark white domes and cupolas almost reminds you of something out of Greece. The smoking Momotombo volcano in the distance.</p>
  1534.  
  1535.  
  1536.  
  1537. <p>This day, we decided to go to a place called the Museum of Traditions and Legends. It&#8217;s a few blocks from the main square.&nbsp;</p>
  1538.  
  1539.  
  1540.  
  1541. <p>Just inside the main gate, there&#8217;s a little garden with a statue of a camouflaged Sandinista guerrilla fighter, and then you pass through this big, brick wall with turrets on the corners. Only then did I realize where I was. Before this was the Museum of Traditions and Legends, it was a prison — <em>Carcel la 21</em>. Prison 21.</p>
  1542.  
  1543.  
  1544.  
  1545. <p>This place is really crazy. So it&#8217;s a former prison that was liberated by the Sandinista army. There was torture. It&#8217;s just one big house with all these different cells that people were apparently taken to, with major repression and torture and killings throughout the 1970s.&nbsp;</p>
  1546.  
  1547.  
  1548.  
  1549. <p>That was the time of brutal US-backed dictator Anastasio Somoza. For decades, the National Guard would bring political prisoners and the disappeared here.</p>
  1550.  
  1551.  
  1552.  
  1553. <p>I&#8217;ll be honest, walking through the museum gives me chills. The bars are still on the windows. They have it set up so that each room you step into, there’s a new exhibition with large puppets or figurines showing different Nicaraguan traditions or legends, but the walls are painted with black and white pictures of what used to be there:<strong> </strong>prisoners sitting on bunk beds playing cards. The National Guard lining people up, their hands and feet shackled. Images of people undergoing different forms of torture.&nbsp;</p>
  1554.  
  1555.  
  1556.  
  1557. <p>There&#8217;s these pages talking about exactly what type of torture happened in these buildings: injecting drugs, filing victims’ teeth, bathing their bodies in water and salt and then making them stand on electric wires. It’s just terrifying.&nbsp;</p>
  1558.  
  1559.  
  1560.  
  1561. <p>But also, at the same time, really beautiful that they can recuperate it, like we&#8217;ve seen in so many other places. Another reminder of the stories that remain. The history, terrifying history.</p>
  1562.  
  1563.  
  1564.  
  1565. <p>The terrifying history of the violence of the past and the revolutionary struggle that would overthrow a dictator and usher in a wave of hope not just for Nicaragua, but across the world.&nbsp;</p>
  1566.  
  1567.  
  1568.  
  1569. <p>That… in a minute.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  1570.  
  1571.  
  1572.  
  1573. <p>[<em>Under the Shadow</em> theme music]</p>
  1574.  
  1575.  
  1576.  
  1577. <p>This is <em>Under the Shadow</em> — A new investigative narrative podcast series that walks back in time to tell the story of the past by visiting momentous places in the present.&nbsp;</p>
  1578.  
  1579.  
  1580.  
  1581. <p>This podcast is a co-production in partnership with The Real News and NACLA.</p>
  1582.  
  1583.  
  1584.  
  1585. <p>I’m your host, Michael Fox —&nbsp;Longtime radio reporter, editor, journalist. The producer and host of the podcast <em>Brazil on Fire</em>. I’ve spent the better part of the last twenty years in Latin America.<br></p>
  1586.  
  1587.  
  1588.  
  1589. <p>I’ve seen firsthand the role of the US government abroad. And most often, sadly, it is not for the better: invasions, coups, sanctions. Support for authoritarian regimes. Politically and economically, the United States has cast a long shadow over Latin America for the past 200 years.&nbsp;</p>
  1590.  
  1591.  
  1592.  
  1593. <p>In each episode in this series, I will take you to a location where something historic happened — A landmark of revolutionary struggle or foreign intervention. Today, it might look like a random street corner, a church, a mall, a monument, or a museum. But every place I’m going to bring you was once the site of history-making events that shook countries, impacted lives, and left deep marks on the world. I’ll try to discover what lingers of that history today.<br></p>
  1594.  
  1595.  
  1596.  
  1597. <p>Over the last two episodes, I’ve been walking you forward in time across the long history of US intervention, invasions, and occupations of Nicaragua. We left the last episode amid the brutal Somoza dictatorship, which would last for nearly five decades. Today, we dive from there into the 1980s, to revolution, and the US war on Nicaragua.&nbsp;</p>
  1598.  
  1599.  
  1600.  
  1601. <p>This is <em>Under the Shadow</em> Season 1: Central America. Episode 10: “1980s Nicaragua Part 1: Revolution”.</p>
  1602.  
  1603.  
  1604.  
  1605. <p>[Music]</p>
  1606.  
  1607.  
  1608.  
  1609. <p>The year is 1978.</p>
  1610.  
  1611.  
  1612.  
  1613. <p>Dictator Anastasio Somoza, also known as Tacho, is in power. His family has ruled Nicaragua since 1937, since just a few years after Anastasio’s father, Anastasio Somoza García, ordered the killing of Augusto Sandino.&nbsp;</p>
  1614.  
  1615.  
  1616.  
  1617. <p>Somoza the father was the head of the National Guard, which the United States had trained and equipped. He took power after the departure of the US Marines marked the end of the United States&#8217;s longest military occupation in Latin American history —&nbsp;21 years. We talked about that in depth in the last episode.</p>
  1618.  
  1619.  
  1620.  
  1621. <p>In 1939, US president Franklin Delano Roosevelt is alleged to have said of Somoza García, “He may be a son of a bitch, but he’s our son of a bitch.&#8221;</p>
  1622.  
  1623.  
  1624.  
  1625. <p>By the late ‘70s, Anastasio Somoza the son has been in power for a decade. He took over in 1967 after his older brother —&nbsp;Dictator Luis Somoza Debayle — died of a heart attack.</p>
  1626.  
  1627.  
  1628.  
  1629. <p>Arizona State University History Professor Alex Aviña says Anastasio Somoza was a Cold War warrior.</p>
  1630.  
  1631.  
  1632.  
  1633. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:</strong>&nbsp; He deployed that discourse to get help from the United States. He would position Nicaragua as the front lines of Western civilization’s struggle against communism. He himself studied at military academies in the United States, so he&#8217;s very Americanized. He spoke perfect English. But he was a ruthless dictator.</p>
  1634.  
  1635.  
  1636.  
  1637. <p><strong>Anastasio Somoza [recording]:&nbsp; </strong>I’m gaining support from the American people, which is what is important to me — Because I am a friend of the Americans, and so are the Nicaraguans.</p>
  1638.  
  1639.  
  1640.  
  1641. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; That’s him speaking to press in Miami during a trip to the United States in 1979. He wears a suit, walks stiff and upright. He has a large mustache, big aviator glasses, a receding hairline, and a smug expression.</p>
  1642.  
  1643.  
  1644.  
  1645. <p>As unrest grew, Anastasio Somoza’s reign became increasingly brutal.&nbsp;</p>
  1646.  
  1647.  
  1648.  
  1649. <p><strong>John Pilder: </strong>&nbsp;Anastasio Somoza founded a dynasty that ran Nicaragua like a family business for 44 years.</p>
  1650.  
  1651.  
  1652.  
  1653. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; In this documentary from the 1980s, Australian investigative journalist John Pilger stands on the edge of the Masaya volcano, just south of the Nicaraguan capital Managua. White smoke pours out of the crater.</p>
  1654.  
  1655.  
  1656.  
  1657. <p><strong>John Pilger:</strong>&nbsp; The Somozas were protected by a private army called the National Guard, which the United States created, paid, and armed. Somoza called them “his boys”. And they tortured almost as a sport. This is the Masaya Volcano, which, as you can see, is very much alive. One of the delights of Somoza’s &#8220;boys&#8221; was to drop his opponents from helicopters into the volcano.</p>
  1658.  
  1659.  
  1660.  
  1661. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:&nbsp; </strong>The last decade of his rule, he really was forced to rely on brutal, overt political violence and terror against his political opponents, whether they were FSLN guerrillas, who had regrouped after their military defeats in the late 1960s to become this really powerful force in the 1970s, but also more who scholars would refer to them as moderate elements of the political opposition.</p>
  1662.  
  1663.  
  1664.  
  1665. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; The FSLN. That’s the other name for the Sandinista National Liberation Front —&nbsp;An insurgency founded in 1961 to rid the country of the Somoza dynasty. It was named after Nicaraguan freedom fighter Augusto Sandino.&nbsp;</p>
  1666.  
  1667.  
  1668.  
  1669. <p>Somoza&#8217;s overt political violence and corruption turns the country against him and…&nbsp;</p>
  1670.  
  1671.  
  1672.  
  1673. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:&nbsp; — </strong>In this situation, liberation theology plays a big role, as almost an ideological bridge between more radical revolutionary elements, like those that belong to the FSLN, with grassroots campesino workers, trade unionists in the countryside, and religious figures, and religious <em>creyentes</em>, religious folks throughout. It becomes an ideology that justifies self-defense and, eventually, revolution.</p>
  1674.  
  1675.  
  1676.  
  1677. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; By the late 1970s, the FSLN has gained tremendous strength and support. It launches a series of nation-wide insurrections.</p>
  1678.  
  1679.  
  1680.  
  1681. <p>Somoza responds by ratcheting up repression and violence.</p>
  1682.  
  1683.  
  1684.  
  1685. <p><strong>Anastasio Somoza [recording]:</strong> This is Nicaragua under martial law.</p>
  1686.  
  1687.  
  1688.  
  1689. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; The images of this documentary from the late 1970s show the rubble of buildings and twisted metal structures.<br></p>
  1690.  
  1691.  
  1692.  
  1693. <p><strong>Anastasio Somoza [recording]:</strong>&nbsp; The army stands guard over the ruins of a country. Ruins which bear witness to a national mutiny against a dictatorship so bereft of alternative solutions that it chose to bomb its own cities.</p>
  1694.  
  1695.  
  1696.  
  1697. <p><strong>Sandinista:&nbsp; </strong>We have had to arm ourselves —</p>
  1698.  
  1699.  
  1700.  
  1701. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; — A member of the Sandinista insurrection tells a TV crew, tapping the automatic rifle in his lap.&nbsp;</p>
  1702.  
  1703.  
  1704.  
  1705. <p><strong>Sandinista:</strong>&nbsp; This is the language that Somoza has used for the last 44 years, and this is the language that we are speaking. And he is understanding, because we are defeating him in the countryside and in the city.</p>
  1706.  
  1707.  
  1708.  
  1709. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:&nbsp; </strong>Meanwhile, the morale of the National Guard was slumping, and the rebellion was so widespread that Somoza&#8217;s forces were stretched to breaking point. By June, Somoza was ordering block-by-block street fighting from his fortified bunker in Managua.&nbsp;</p>
  1710.  
  1711.  
  1712.  
  1713. <p>By this time, the United States had lost all interest in propping up an unwanted regime. So by the time the revolution breaks out in 1978, he faces an entire society with very few exceptions: the cliques around him, the National Guard that had been organized all the way back in the 1930s by the US, against a a broad, popular front of revolutionary resistance against his dictatorship that leads to his overthrow in 1979.</p>
  1714.  
  1715.  
  1716.  
  1717. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Finally, July 17, 1979, Somoza resigns and flees the country. He goes into exile in Paraguay, then ruled by its own dictator, who would ultimately be in power for 35 years.</p>
  1718.  
  1719.  
  1720.  
  1721. <p><strong>American Sandinista:</strong>&nbsp; After 16 years of persistent fighting and seven weeks of outright civil war, Nicaragua&#8217;s Sandinista guerrillas today savored a total victory over Anastasio Somoza. By the thousands, the people of Nicaragua are pouring towards the capital of Managua to celebrate the revolution. But for the Sandinistas, today was more than Independence Day. Today, Managua was theirs.</p>
  1722.  
  1723.  
  1724.  
  1725. <p><strong>Marvin Ortega Rodriguez:&nbsp; </strong>The most important thing happened in the following days —&nbsp;</p>
  1726.  
  1727.  
  1728.  
  1729. <p><strong>Michael Fox: </strong>&nbsp;— Says Marvin Ortega Rodriguez. He was a member of the Sandinistas, who would go on to serve as Nicaraguan ambassador to Brazil and Panama.&nbsp;</p>
  1730.  
  1731.  
  1732.  
  1733. <p><strong>Marvin Ortega Rodriguez: </strong>&nbsp;The entire society came out to support the FSLN. People who had never participated in any organization in their lives started getting involved and getting organized — Even some of Somoza&#8217;s former public officials.</p>
  1734.  
  1735.  
  1736.  
  1737. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Marvin says he began in his community, coordinating the Sandinista Defense Committees. They were the local, community branch of the Sandinista movement after they overthrew Somoza.</p>
  1738.  
  1739.  
  1740.  
  1741. <p><strong>Marvin Ortega Rodriguez:</strong>&nbsp; Every night, we were out in the streets doing community watch. But it wasn&#8217;t just a couple of people, it was the entire neighborhood. We had a tremendous sense of community.</p>
  1742.  
  1743.  
  1744.  
  1745. <p><strong>William Robinson:</strong>&nbsp; In the early 1980s, the feeling is euphoric.</p>
  1746.  
  1747.  
  1748.  
  1749. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; That’s William Robinson. Today, he’s a professor of sociology and Latin American Studies at UC Santa Barbara. He arrived in Nicaragua in 1980 and lived there throughout the decade, first working with the Nicaraguan Committee in Solidarity with the Peoples, and then working at the state Nicaraguan News Agency.</p>
  1750.  
  1751.  
  1752.  
  1753. <p><strong>William Robinson:</strong>&nbsp; You still get the sense of revolution in the air. There&#8217;s this incredible optimism. There&#8217;s this incredible outpouring of enthusiasm and poor people from the barrios. There&#8217;s beehives of organization everywhere. Especially young people are so thrilled, and have endless, boundless energy.</p>
  1754.  
  1755.  
  1756.  
  1757. <p><strong>Eline Van Ommen:</strong>&nbsp; Obviously, the Sandinistas come into power with a radical program of social change.</p>
  1758.  
  1759.  
  1760.  
  1761. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; That is Eline Van Ommen, a historian of Latin America at the University of Leeds in the UK.&nbsp;</p>
  1762.  
  1763.  
  1764.  
  1765. <p><strong>Eline Van Ommen:&nbsp; </strong>And one of the major accomplishments when they come to power is this literacy campaign in which young Nicaraguans from the mostly urban areas, they become brigadistas. They go to the rural areas, the countryside, and they teach literacy skills to children, but also adults because illiteracy rates were incredibly high.</p>
  1766.  
  1767.  
  1768.  
  1769. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; This tremendous black-and-white Nicaraguan documentary from 1980, produced by the newly formed Nicaraguan Film Institute, shows the rollout of the literacy campaign, or what the Sandinistas called <em>La Cruzada Nacional</em>, the National Crusade. They kicked it off in March, less than a year after the Sandinistas took power.&nbsp;</p>
  1770.  
  1771.  
  1772.  
  1773. <p>In the film, thousands of young Nicaraguans gather in Managua before heading off into the countryside to teach the people to read. The campaign was founded on similar literacy programs in Cuba and elsewhere. 100,000 young Nicaraguans participated in the program as teachers.</p>
  1774.  
  1775.  
  1776.  
  1777. <p>“I&#8217;m so proud that all of my children can participate in the literacy campaign,” says one mother, with her arms around her children. She says she has five kids — Another one died fighting Somoza.</p>
  1778.  
  1779.  
  1780.  
  1781. <p>It’s clearly a time of excitement and hope. The literacy campaign lasted five months and was a tremendous success. 400,000 Nicaraguans learned to read and write. Illiteracy dropped from just over half the population to under 13%.&nbsp;</p>
  1782.  
  1783.  
  1784.  
  1785. <p>“We are proud of what we’ve been taught,&#8221; says one campesino in the film, &#8220;because we’ll be able to bring this with us wherever we go. They didn’t teach this to us before, because they didn’t want us to wake up. Today, we have awoken.”</p>
  1786.  
  1787.  
  1788.  
  1789. <p>But the literacy campaign did create tensions in Black and Indigenous communities on the Caribbean coast who didn&#8217;t speak Spanish as a first language. So, in late 1980, the new government launched a literacy campaign for communities there, focused on English and Native languages.</p>
  1790.  
  1791.  
  1792.  
  1793. <p>And it didn’t stop there.&nbsp;</p>
  1794.  
  1795.  
  1796.  
  1797. <p><strong>Eline Van Ommen:&nbsp; </strong>There&#8217;s healthcare programs, vaccination campaigns. So there is all this optimism about improving the standard of living and making this country more equal.<br></p>
  1798.  
  1799.  
  1800.  
  1801. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; The excitement spreads far beyond Nicaragua&#8217;s borders.</p>
  1802.  
  1803.  
  1804.  
  1805. <p>That is the British rock band The Clash. In late 1980, they released a triple album entitled <em>Sandinista!</em> — That&#8217;s Sandinista with an exclamation point at the end. It included this song, “Washington Bullets”, which looks at US intervention in Chile against Allende, the Bay of Pigs invasion in Cuba, and then celebrates the Nicaraguan revolution.</p>
  1806.  
  1807.  
  1808.  
  1809. <p>&#8220;<em>Well the people fought the leader and up he flew</em>&#8221;&nbsp;</p>
  1810.  
  1811.  
  1812.  
  1813. <p>sings lead vocalist Joe Strummer about the Sandinista revolution against Somoza.&nbsp;</p>
  1814.  
  1815.  
  1816.  
  1817. <p>&#8220;<em>With no Washington bullets what else could he do?</em>&#8220;</p>
  1818.  
  1819.  
  1820.  
  1821. <p>The Washington bullets would clearly come later, but hope is the feeling on the streets now.</p>
  1822.  
  1823.  
  1824.  
  1825. <p><strong>Joan Krukewitt:</strong>&nbsp; Everyday, there was news coming out of Nicaragua, frontpage headlines in the United States. There were news stories about Nicaragua. It was really exciting, especially for a journalist or a budding journalist.</p>
  1826.  
  1827.  
  1828.  
  1829. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; That&#8217;s reporter Joan Krukewitt in the 2007 documentary <em>American Sandinista</em> about US solidarity activists who came to support the revolution. Joan lived and worked in Nicaragua throughout the 1980s.</p>
  1830.  
  1831.  
  1832.  
  1833. <p><strong>Joan Krukewitt:</strong>&nbsp; Nicaragua seemed to be like the center of the world.</p>
  1834.  
  1835.  
  1836.  
  1837. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Alex Aviña.</p>
  1838.  
  1839.  
  1840.  
  1841. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:</strong>&nbsp; This is the second successful revolution in Latin America in the Cold War era, so this is a political earthquake.</p>
  1842.  
  1843.  
  1844.  
  1845. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; The first, of course, was Cuba, 1959.</p>
  1846.  
  1847.  
  1848.  
  1849. <p>And the United States is concerned the dominos could fall across Central America.&nbsp;</p>
  1850.  
  1851.  
  1852.  
  1853. <p><strong>President Jimmy Carter [recording]: </strong>&nbsp;As long as I am president, the government of the United States will, throughout the world, continue to enhance human rights.</p>
  1854.  
  1855.  
  1856.  
  1857. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Even President Jimmy Carter. He’s remembered for his strong stance for human rights. He cut aid from Somoza during the last year of his rule. Carter re-upped it when the FSLN took power, but by early 1980, he’d also authorized the CIA to begin to support unarmed counter-revolutionary forces in Nicaragua.&nbsp;</p>
  1858.  
  1859.  
  1860.  
  1861. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:</strong>&nbsp; Because they recognize that there are similar conditions throughout Central America: a small oligarchy, big landed elite, and a lot of disaffected civil societies. And you have the emergence of something like liberation theology that can serve as an organizing and ideological framework for disparate social elements.</p>
  1862.  
  1863.  
  1864.  
  1865. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Remember, at the time, guerrillas are waging insurgencies against authoritarian US-backed governments in both Guatemala and El Salvador, as we&#8217;ve looked at extensively in this series.</p>
  1866.  
  1867.  
  1868.  
  1869. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:&nbsp; </strong>And you start to see murmurings and movement to find ways to destabilize this fledgling new revolutionary government that, in its inception, was a multi-class, politically pluralist, social democratic movement.</p>
  1870.  
  1871.  
  1872.  
  1873. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Alex explains that this is really important<em> </em>to keep in mind. The Sandinista movement that overthrew Somoza wasn’t some ruthless totalitarian regime that would impose their will on the masses; They were diverse, with strong support across the country. They wanted democracy. They wanted elections, and they would hold and win them.&nbsp;</p>
  1874.  
  1875.  
  1876.  
  1877. <p>This clip from a news report in the early ‘80s shows the extent of the class diversity in the new Sandinista government.</p>
  1878.  
  1879.  
  1880.  
  1881. <p><strong>News Report:</strong>&nbsp; Economists, lawyers, and even rich industrialists have taken positions in government. And United States and Western bankers, Nicaragua&#8217;s main hope for raising the massive cash loads it needs, are being assured that the new leadership is far from committed to a Cuban-style revolution. In fact, it&#8217;s claimed that 75% of the economy is still in private hands, and will remain there.&nbsp;</p>
  1882.  
  1883.  
  1884.  
  1885. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; They did launch a land reform. At the time he fled the country, Somoza owned more than 20% of the country&#8217;s agricultural land. That was divided up to create state farms and cooperatives that could produce food for the country and drive exports. When campesinos demanded their own share, the Sandinistas listened, ordering that unproductive agricultural land also be expropriated and distributed.</p>
  1886.  
  1887.  
  1888.  
  1889. <p>But at the same time, William Robinson says, they tried to walk a tightrope so as not to alienate the traditional elites and powerful landowners.</p>
  1890.  
  1891.  
  1892.  
  1893. <p><strong>William Robinson:</strong>&nbsp; Because of the urgency of the country defending itself from US aggression, the Sandinista policy was to hold back the class struggle to support the so-called patriotic bourgeoisie, the land owners, big land owners that did not leave the country. The capitalists that didn&#8217;t leave the country and said OK, we will also not participate in the armed counter-revolution.&nbsp;</p>
  1894.  
  1895.  
  1896.  
  1897. <p>So, they got support in the form of the government, saying to the peasants, don&#8217;t invade land. Saying to the workers, don&#8217;t strike for higher wages. Don&#8217;t confront the capitalists.</p>
  1898.  
  1899.  
  1900.  
  1901. <p><strong>Speaker:&nbsp; </strong>Sandinista spokesmen say they have been criticized on two sides; by some for being revolutionary Marxists, and by others for selling out the revolution to the capitalists. They insist neither is true. They want a pluralistic society and a mixed economy. The main goal is the reconstruction of Nicaragua.&nbsp;</p>
  1902.  
  1903.  
  1904.  
  1905. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Alex Aviña.</p>
  1906.  
  1907.  
  1908.  
  1909. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:</strong>&nbsp; What emerges from the 1979 revolution is the type of revolution that Americans were saying in the ‘60s that they wanted for the region. But by the time we get to ‘79, ‘80, they&#8217;re like, no, actually we don&#8217;t want it.&nbsp;</p>
  1910.  
  1911.  
  1912.  
  1913. <p>It&#8217;s also a tiny… Like it&#8217;s what, 2.9 million people? It&#8217;s a tiny country with a tiny population but it will assume this outsized presence in US foreign policy, especially after Jimmy Carter loses the reelection attempt to President Ronald Reagan. And that completely changes the dynamic of what&#8217;s really going to happen, which is essentially the US declaring war on Nicaragua for 10 years.</p>
  1914.  
  1915.  
  1916.  
  1917. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; That… in a minute.<br></p>
  1918.  
  1919.  
  1920.  
  1921. <p>[ADVERTISEMENT BEGINS]</p>
  1922.  
  1923.  
  1924.  
  1925. <p><strong>Maximillian Alvarez:&nbsp; </strong>Hey, everyone, Maximillian Alvarez here, editor-in-chief of The Real News Network. We’re going to get you right back to the program in a sec, I promise, but really quick, I just wanted to remind y’all that The Real News is an independent, viewer- and listener-supported, grassroots media network. We don’t take corporate cash, we don’t have ads, and we never, ever put our reporting behind paywalls.&nbsp;</p>
  1926.  
  1927.  
  1928.  
  1929. <p>But we cannot continue to do this work without your support. It takes a lot of time, energy, and money to produce powerful, unique, and journalistically rigorous shows like <em>Under the Shadow</em>. So if you want more vital storytelling and reporting like this, we need you to become a supporter of The Real News now. Just head over to therealnews.com/donate and donate today. It really makes a difference.&nbsp;</p>
  1930.  
  1931.  
  1932.  
  1933. <p>Also, if you’re enjoying <em>Under the Shadow</em>, then you will definitely want to follow NACLA, the North American Congress on Latin America. NACLA’s reporting and analysis goes beyond the headlines to help you understand what’s happening in Latin America and the Caribbean from a progressive perspective. Visit nacla.org to learn more.&nbsp;</p>
  1934.  
  1935.  
  1936.  
  1937. <p>Alright, thanks for listening. Back to the show.</p>
  1938.  
  1939.  
  1940.  
  1941. <p>[ADVERTISEMENT ENDS]</p>
  1942.  
  1943.  
  1944.  
  1945. <p><strong>President Ronald Reagan [recording]:</strong>&nbsp; It&#8217;s the fate of this region, Central America, that I want to talk to you about tonight. The issue is our effort to promote democracy and economic well-being in the face of Cuban and Nicaraguan aggression aided and abetted by the Soviet Union.</p>
  1946.  
  1947.  
  1948.  
  1949. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; William Robinson.</p>
  1950.  
  1951.  
  1952.  
  1953. <p><strong>William Robinson:</strong>&nbsp; Of course, Reagan is elected in the end of 1980, and he makes it clear very soon that there&#8217;s going to be a major escalation of US hostility.&nbsp;</p>
  1954.  
  1955.  
  1956.  
  1957. <p>I think for me the key turning point is 1983, because up until 1983, there&#8217;s a lot of enthusiasm. Also the economy has not been shattered. People&#8217;s lives were improving. There were subsidies on basic consumption. There was health and education. The literacy campaign was ‘80 to ‘81.&nbsp;</p>
  1958.  
  1959.  
  1960.  
  1961. <p>So all of that starts to change, and 1983 is really the key year where it becomes clear that the United States is going to launch a war of hostility and escalation. A war to destroy the Nicaraguan revolution. And so the mood gets more somber, more concerning.</p>
  1962.  
  1963.  
  1964.  
  1965. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Remember, this is thick in the Cold War.&nbsp;</p>
  1966.  
  1967.  
  1968.  
  1969. <p><strong>President Ronald Reagan [recording]:</strong>&nbsp; Members of the Congress, I have the high privilege and distinct honor of presenting to you the president of the United States.</p>
  1970.  
  1971.  
  1972.  
  1973. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Alex Aviña.</p>
  1974.  
  1975.  
  1976.  
  1977. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:</strong>&nbsp; He gives this famous address to Congress in 1983 where he gives us the domino theory, Central America version. That the Sandinista victory was going to unleash communist revolution throughout Central America, is going to lead to the downfall of Mexico, and eventually it was going to reach the United States. And then we get this movie, <em>Red Dawn</em>, which is precisely that.</p>
  1978.  
  1979.  
  1980.  
  1981. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; That&#8217;s a clip from the movie. If you don&#8217;t remember it, it&#8217;s pretty crazy. It&#8217;s been described as teen <em>Rambo</em>, where an adolescent Charlie Sheen, Patrick Swayze, and Jennifer Grey — You know, from <em>Dirty Dancing</em> —&nbsp;Well, they have to defend the US from an invasion of communist forces, including Nicaraguans.</p>
  1982.  
  1983.  
  1984.  
  1985. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:</strong>&nbsp; <em>Red Dawn</em> is the fantasy, the fear that the US was going to be overtaken by the Nicaraguans, the Cubans, and the Russians.</p>
  1986.  
  1987.  
  1988.  
  1989. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Like we have talked about often in this podcast series, US president Ronald Reagan saw Central America as ground zero for his proxy war against the so-called communist threat in the region. He backed bloody authoritarian regimes, waging war on their populations in Guatemala and El Salvador. He essentially turned Honduras into a US military base from which he would wage a decade-long invasion against the Sandinistas.</p>
  1990.  
  1991.  
  1992.  
  1993. <p>No country was more of a direct US battlefield than Nicaragua.&nbsp;</p>
  1994.  
  1995.  
  1996.  
  1997. <p><strong>Alex Aviña: </strong>&nbsp;So the goal was to destabilize. To choke out this revolution. The goal of the Reagan administration was to declare war on this country. And that would, in a wartime footing, would force the Sandinista government to assume authoritarian measures, essentially, to survive.&nbsp;</p>
  1998.  
  1999.  
  2000.  
  2001. <p>And the way that the Reagan administration is able to do this, or one of the main ways, is to fund a bunch of ex-Somozista, ex-National Guard people, and create something that we now refer to as the Contras.&nbsp;</p>
  2002.  
  2003.  
  2004.  
  2005. <p>The other way was to essentially have an invisible economic blockade, and to illegally mine the ports of Nicaragua. And to use what the CIA referred to as “unilaterally controlled Latino assets” to wage a CIA covert war against the Sandinistas to blow up oil depots.</p>
  2006.  
  2007.  
  2008.  
  2009. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; We dove into the training and funding of the Contras extensively in Episode 6 of this podcast about 1980s Honduras. If you haven’t heard that yet, I recommend you go back and listen now. As I mention, according to anthropologist David Vine, in the 1980s there were &#8220;at least 32 Contra bases alone in Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and even Florida.&#8221;</p>
  2010.  
  2011.  
  2012.  
  2013. <p>And they were brutal.</p>
  2014.  
  2015.  
  2016.  
  2017. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:</strong>&nbsp; The Contras start to take form in ‘81, ‘82, and right away they don&#8217;t really attack the Sandinista army. What they start doing, through cross-broad incursions from Costa Rica and Honduras, was to wage war on Nicaraguan civil society. To attack &#8220;soft targets”, to attack and do horrific things to teachers, to civil workers, to doctors, to communities.&nbsp;</p>
  2018.  
  2019.  
  2020.  
  2021. <p>They were horrific rapists. They would kidnap young girls and essentially turn them into sexual slaves. They had hundreds of people that they kept in this way. The Contras were just monsters. And they were being financed and organized and trained by the United States led by Reagan.</p>
  2022.  
  2023.  
  2024.  
  2025. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Miguel d&#8217;Escoto was a Catholic priest and the foreign minister of the Sandinista government throughout the 1980s. In this documentary from that period, he lays out what he says is the US responsibility for the Contra war on his country.</p>
  2026.  
  2027.  
  2028.  
  2029. <p><strong>Miguel d’Escoto:</strong>&nbsp; They conceived it. They are directing it. They are financing it. And the United States is also arming it.</p>
  2030.  
  2031.  
  2032.  
  2033. <p><strong>President Ronald Reagan [recording]:</strong>&nbsp; We have an obligation to be of help where we can to freedom fighters, lovers of freedom and democracy, from Afghanistan to Nicaragua.</p>
  2034.  
  2035.  
  2036.  
  2037. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Peter Kornbluh is a senior analyst at the National Security Archive, which has worked to get documents declassified on US intervention and, in particular, South and Central America. And, of course, Nicaragua.</p>
  2038.  
  2039.  
  2040.  
  2041. <p><strong>Peter Kornbluh:</strong>&nbsp; Ronald Reagan called the Contras freedom fighters. You know, the George Washingtonians of modern Central America. But in fact they were vicious, repressive, brutal beyond description. And we were supporting them, if not leading them, if not doing some of our own operations and then letting them claim credit for them. So it was a bloody, overt covert operation.&nbsp;</p>
  2042.  
  2043.  
  2044.  
  2045. <p>The Contra War, I would say, became the most notorious and protracted CIA covert operation in modern history. And yet, all these years later, everybody&#8217;s forgotten about this. The Contras had no real backing, funding, training other than the United States after an initial few months of some Argentine agents, a small team of Argentine agents being in Honduras and Costa Rica.</p>
  2046.  
  2047.  
  2048.  
  2049. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; The Sandinistas armed and fought back. And they were more than clear about who was backing their adversaries.</p>
  2050.  
  2051.  
  2052.  
  2053. <p>“They are people from outside our country, people from outside our lives that are screwing us,” says one member of the Sandinista forces in a documentary produced in the ‘80s. He’s young, in a green camouflage uniform, leaning against a tree somewhere in the field. “Who&#8217;s financing the counterrevolution?,” he asks. &#8220;It’s the gringos. Who&#8217;s sending the planes to do reconnaissance?&nbsp;It’s the gringos. So it’s the gringos that are waging war on us. If they weren’t financing the old National Guard, they wouldn’t exist. They would have been defeated 1,000 times over.”&nbsp;</p>
  2054.  
  2055.  
  2056.  
  2057. <p>But news of the Contras’ brutality was getting out as international journalists began covering the abuses. In this news story from the 1980s by the CBS television program <em>West 57th</em>, reporter Jane Wallace visits a village and speaks with an American nun about the Contra attacks.</p>
  2058.  
  2059.  
  2060.  
  2061. <p><strong>Jane Wallace:</strong>&nbsp; The Contras, she says, are specifically targeting civilians. Gregorio Devilo was orphaned by them. His family was murdered by the Contras in November when the baby was six days old. Her parents were murdered? Yes. A brother of the mother. His girlfriend. The 4-year-old brother of this baby. The Contras attacked about 20 of them in the night.</p>
  2062.  
  2063.  
  2064.  
  2065. <p><strong>Alex Aviña:</strong>&nbsp; As a result of some of this reporting that the US government could not ignore, we had a series of Boland amendments, named after the representative from Massachusetts, that forbid the US government from funding or giving any sort of support or financial aid to the Contras.</p>
  2066.  
  2067.  
  2068.  
  2069. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; So the Contras find their revenue streams run dry. And Reagan’s government decides to get both creative and illegal about how to finance its so-called freedom fighters in Nicaragua.</p>
  2070.  
  2071.  
  2072.  
  2073. <p>Peter Kornbluh.</p>
  2074.  
  2075.  
  2076.  
  2077. <p><strong>Peter Kornbluh:</strong>&nbsp; The Reagan administration was so obsessed with overthrowing the Sandinistas and reasserting US domination control in the region that they violated the law of the land.&nbsp;</p>
  2078.  
  2079.  
  2080.  
  2081. <p>The American public and the US Congress said no, we&#8217;re not going to be supporting a counter-revolutionary effort to overthrow the Sandinista government. And the Reagan administration said, well, yes, we are. And if you don&#8217;t give us the money, we&#8217;re going to secretly get it.</p>
  2082.  
  2083.  
  2084.  
  2085. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; And that is where we will head next time, in Part 2 of this episode.</p>
  2086.  
  2087.  
  2088.  
  2089. <p><strong>President Ronald Reagan [recording]:</strong>&nbsp; They are the moral equal of our founding fathers and the brave men and women fighting the French resistance.</p>
  2090.  
  2091.  
  2092.  
  2093. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; Even deeper into the CIA war on Nicaragua, but also to the solidarity movement that would respond, and the scandal that would rock the Reagan presidency,&nbsp;</p>
  2094.  
  2095.  
  2096.  
  2097. <p><strong>President Ronald Reagan [recording]:</strong>&nbsp; A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that&#8217;s true. But the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.</p>
  2098.  
  2099.  
  2100.  
  2101. <p><strong>Michael Fox:</strong>&nbsp; That is next time on <em>Under the Shadow</em>.</p>
  2102.  
  2103.  
  2104.  
  2105. <p>[<em>Under the Shadow</em> theme music]</p>
  2106.  
  2107.  
  2108.  
  2109. <p>As always, if you like what you hear, please check out my Patreon page: patreon.com/mfox. There you can also support my work, become a monthly sustainer, or sign up to stay abreast of the latest on this podcast and my other reporting across Latin America.&nbsp;</p>
  2110.  
  2111.  
  2112.  
  2113. <p><em>Under the Shadow</em> is a co-production in partnership with The Real News and NACLA.&nbsp;</p>
  2114.  
  2115.  
  2116.  
  2117. <p>The theme music is by my band, Monte Perdido.</p>
  2118.  
  2119.  
  2120.  
  2121. <p>This is Michael Fox. Many thanks.</p>
  2122.  
  2123.  
  2124.  
  2125. <p>See you next time…&nbsp;</p>
  2126. ]]></content:encoded>
  2130. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313535</post-id> </item>
  2131. <item>
  2132. <title>Sports gambling&#8217;s takeover of the pro sports world is just beginning</title>
  2133. <link>https://therealnews.com/sports-gamblings-takeover-of-the-pro-sports-world-is-just-beginning</link>
  2135. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Zirin]]></dc:creator>
  2136. <pubDate>Mon, 13 May 2024 18:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
  2137. <category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
  2138. <category><![CDATA[Edge of Sports TV]]></category>
  2139. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  2140. <category><![CDATA[edge of sports]]></category>
  2141. <category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
  2142. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313482</guid>
  2143.  
  2144. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Senior business man live betting at his home office and losing. Via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The scandals we've seen over players' and fans' gambling behavior are just the tip of the iceberg—Danny Funt's new book on the sports betting industry shows us just how deep the rot could reach.]]></description>
  2145. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Senior business man live betting at his home office and losing. Via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1203756480-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  2146. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  2147. <iframe title="Sports betting is so much worse than you think w/Danny Funt | Edge of Sports" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/h4wCSAf7_Sw?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  2148. </div></figure>
  2149.  
  2150.  
  2151.  
  2152. <p class="has-drop-cap">Sports gambling&#8217;s rapid takeover of the professional sports industry is arguably the most important development of our time in the world of athletics. The introduction of legal betting has created a powerful new source of temptation with corrosive effects on fans, players, owners, and ultimately the games themselves. Sports journalist <a href="https://twitter.com/dannyfunt" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Danny Funt</a> joins <em>Edge of Sports</em> to discuss the phenomenon and his upcoming book on the subject.</p>
  2153.  
  2154.  
  2155.  
  2156. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  2157. <p>Studio Production: David Hebden<br>Post-Production: Taylor Hebden<br>Audio Post-Production: David Hebden<br>Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino<br>Music by: Eze Jackson &amp; Carlos Guillen</p>
  2158. </blockquote>
  2159.  
  2160.  
  2161.  
  2162. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  2163.  
  2164.  
  2165.  
  2166. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  2167.  
  2168.  
  2169.  
  2170. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  2171.  
  2172.  
  2173.  
  2174. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2175.  
  2176.  
  2177.  
  2178. <p>Welcome to Edge of Sports, the TV show only on the Real News Network, I&#8217;m Dave Zirin. We are going to speak right now to Danny Funt. Danny is a Washington Post contributor who covers the explosion of legal sports betting in the United States, and his book on that subject will be published next year. Let&#8217;s talk to him now.</p>
  2179.  
  2180.  
  2181.  
  2182. <p>Danny, thank you so much for joining us.</p>
  2183.  
  2184.  
  2185.  
  2186. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2187.  
  2188.  
  2189.  
  2190. <p>My pleasure, thanks for having me.</p>
  2191.  
  2192.  
  2193.  
  2194. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2195.  
  2196.  
  2197.  
  2198. <p>So I want to just lay the groundwork, the lay of the land for folks who are just waking up to this. How big a part of the economy of sports is legal gambling right now, and where are the trend lines pointing?</p>
  2199.  
  2200.  
  2201.  
  2202. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2203.  
  2204.  
  2205.  
  2206. <p>Yeah, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s transforming every aspect of the business of sports, the fan experience, certainly the laws that affect sports and those aspects. Yeah, it&#8217;s a game changer. 38 states and DC have legalized sports betting, several more expected to in the near future. And from teams to commissioners to certainly the NCAA, everyone is trying to cash in on that legalization, making some suspect choices in the process. And yeah, I mean they&#8217;re sort of facing the consequences as we&#8217;ve seen in some pretty shocking headlines recently, but it&#8217;s only going to continue. I still think we&#8217;re in the early innings of this sports betting experiment in the US.</p>
  2207.  
  2208.  
  2209.  
  2210. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2211.  
  2212.  
  2213.  
  2214. <p>So you&#8217;re saying that the recent headlines, you&#8217;re talking about some of the betting scandals involving athletes, as well as some of the statements of coaches and players who talk about being heckled or even being threatened because of fans not making their gambling quotas. Is that what you&#8217;re referring to?</p>
  2215.  
  2216.  
  2217.  
  2218. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2219.  
  2220.  
  2221.  
  2222. <p>Yeah, exactly. It was funny, March Madness is one of the biggest betting periods of the year, certainly a time when the sportsbooks want to get positive coverage and attract as many new customers as they can, and yet there was just an onslaught of grim news from the Shohei Otani betting scandal. An NBA bench player who got caught up it looks like, with some, basically a version of point shaving involving his prop bets to the head coach of the Cleveland Cavaliers, saying he gets menacing voicemails from people when the Cavs cost bettors money. The list goes on, it was a rough month for betting advocates.</p>
  2223.  
  2224.  
  2225.  
  2226. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2227.  
  2228.  
  2229.  
  2230. <p>Yes, so is a reckoning inevitable if these stories keep continuing, of players finding themselves with spare time, their phones, disposable income, and wanting to make bets? I mean, it&#8217;s such a perfect stew for more scandal, but. And what would a reckoning look like and is it just too much money for the leagues to even want to have a reckoning for the effects of gambling?</p>
  2231.  
  2232.  
  2233.  
  2234. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2235.  
  2236.  
  2237.  
  2238. <p>That&#8217;s such a pressing question. I don&#8217;t know exactly. I think I&#8217;m skeptical that leagues would actually, that have recently legalized betting would go so far as to outlaw it. I think they might rein in the sorts of things you can bet on. One of the things that leads to all sorts of suspicious betting is that obviously you can bet on much, much more than just who&#8217;s going to win nowadays. You can bet on basically every facet of the game, down to how a certain play is going to play out. So, I think things like that could face stiffer regulations. The ways you can bet on college sports already are being reined in. But yeah, I think the leagues have placed their bet, lawmakers have placed their bet and they&#8217;re having to live with it, and I don&#8217;t know what level of addiction or what level of corruption would have to go down for them really to pull back in a meaningful way, but they&#8217;re being tested recently.</p>
  2239.  
  2240.  
  2241.  
  2242. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2243.  
  2244.  
  2245.  
  2246. <p>You mentioned addiction, gambling addiction. What are we seeing on that front in the United States especially, obviously since the legalization?</p>
  2247.  
  2248.  
  2249.  
  2250. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2251.  
  2252.  
  2253.  
  2254. <p>Pre-legalization, the number that was floated was that roughly 1% of the population is susceptible to gambling addiction. Post legalization, now that basically every smartphone is a casino, those rates could be as high as 4% I&#8217;m told, which is really a staggering number. You think about it like in a full NFL stadium, maybe 3,000 people could be suffering from gambling addiction. It&#8217;s kind of incomprehensible.</p>
  2255.  
  2256.  
  2257.  
  2258. <p>I think beyond that, it&#8217;s important to recognize there&#8217;s a clinically diagnosed gambling addiction that needs a medical intervention, but then there&#8217;s all sorts of problem behavior. Just like with drinking, alcoholism is one thing, but people might drink more than they ought to, along that spectrum, and the same thing is proven true with gambling. And it&#8217;s so important to note with that, that it&#8217;s not just, can I gamble or can I not gamble? It&#8217;s the ways you can gamble, and some of the most profitable types of betting, some of the most popular types of betting are some of the most addictive, and that&#8217;s certainly driving addiction rates across the country.</p>
  2259.  
  2260.  
  2261.  
  2262. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2263.  
  2264.  
  2265.  
  2266. <p>I&#8217;m speaking just anecdotally, but my son who&#8217;s in high school has come home and told me about kids placing bets with other kids because they got their parents FanDuel accounts and my son said, &#8220;Dad, we&#8217;re creating a new generation of bookies out of our high schools.&#8221; Is that just my son&#8217;s massive public school experience or are we seeing about youth gambling addictions?</p>
  2267.  
  2268.  
  2269.  
  2270. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2271.  
  2272.  
  2273.  
  2274. <p>No, I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s a one-off. How old&#8217;s your son, by the way? I&#8217;m curious.</p>
  2275.  
  2276.  
  2277.  
  2278. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2279.  
  2280.  
  2281.  
  2282. <p>Actually, he&#8217;s 15, he turns 16 tomorrow.</p>
  2283.  
  2284.  
  2285.  
  2286. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2287.  
  2288.  
  2289.  
  2290. <p>Yeah, that&#8217;s a classic time of life to start playing around with this. No, I think an irony of legalization is it&#8217;s shown a lot of people, a lot of entrepreneurs, hey, bookmaking is a winning business, maybe I should get involved in that. I live near Colorado State University, I was just talking with a student there who said the legal betting age is 21, by 19, as soon as he got to college, he was betting through offshore sportsbooks that are unregulated and through some campus bookies who, just like your son&#8217;s classmates, got inspired by all the betting around them and said, hey, this is an easy way to make a buck.</p>
  2291.  
  2292.  
  2293.  
  2294. <p>No, I think the argument for legalization was we&#8217;ve got this robust black market, let&#8217;s bring it into the sunlight just as the same way that happened with cannabis and regulate it, tax it, implement some consumer protections. In reality, yes, some of that has happened, but it&#8217;s also caused the black market to surge for a number of reasons with adults and certainly with young people.</p>
  2295.  
  2296.  
  2297.  
  2298. <p>Young people, I don&#8217;t know exactly what age, definitely are more susceptible to compulsive betting, which is obviously dicey because they probably have a lot less disposable income, but it&#8217;s a reason why advertising that targets college students. You can understand why they&#8217;re attractive new customers, but that&#8217;s some of the most controversial types of marketing. And some of the partnerships that sportsbooks struck up in recent years literally with universities, in some of those cases got shut down pretty quickly just because that seemed like a line too far, even for gambling advocates.</p>
  2299.  
  2300.  
  2301.  
  2302. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2303.  
  2304.  
  2305.  
  2306. <p>Do the legal gambling concerns, the FanDuels, etc, do they give a damn about these issues of addiction? You see they do the 1-800-GAMBLER at the end of their ads, or is this just window dressing, like the equivalent of a cigarette company saying, oh, by the way, you can get lung cancer?</p>
  2307.  
  2308.  
  2309.  
  2310. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2311.  
  2312.  
  2313.  
  2314. <p>Yeah, so true. I mean, I think whether they give a damn or not, meaningful change can&#8217;t come from sportsbook self-policing. Just a week ago I talked to a guy who was one of the top officials at one of those kind of second tier sportsbooks, and he was saying the incentives just aren&#8217;t there to crack down internally on problem gambling. Those are literally your best customers, those are your whales who you&#8217;re showering with promotions and egging on with these kind of concierge services to keep those people betting. So their rationale is well, they&#8217;re our best customers, if we boot them, they&#8217;re just going to go to our competitors, we&#8217;re going to lose market share. They&#8217;re going to find a way to keep betting. So it&#8217;s not really in our best interest to do anything meaningful about that, which is why this person and a number of people across the industry are saying regulators need to impose much, much stiffer fines when sportsbooks are caught recruiting or egging on problem betters.</p>
  2315.  
  2316.  
  2317.  
  2318. <p>And there&#8217;s also ways beyond that, just really simple fixes, short of banning gambling that would make a difference. One of the tenants of responsible betting is don&#8217;t chase your losses. Chasing your losses is like pregame, I bet on the Denver Nuggets to win. They&#8217;re down at the first quarter, I place another bet, they&#8217;re losing at halftime even more. I place a third bet. You can trick yourself into thinking, well, the odds have gotten better, so if they make a miraculous comeback, I&#8217;ll make a fortune. Obviously, more often than not, that doesn&#8217;t play out, classic way to bet over your head. So if a tenant of responsible betting is don&#8217;t chase your losses, perhaps sportsbooks could just not take those bets past a point. If I keep depositing money in my account during a game and upping my bets, they could just cut you off and say, you need to cool down period. Things like that seem to me like a lot more practical, incremental changes that definitely would make a difference.</p>
  2319.  
  2320.  
  2321.  
  2322. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2323.  
  2324.  
  2325.  
  2326. <p>Let&#8217;s talk about the European experience with legalized sportsbook betting, its effect on soccer. Does that have anything to teach us about how bad this could get or where this could go?</p>
  2327.  
  2328.  
  2329.  
  2330. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2331.  
  2332.  
  2333.  
  2334. <p>Yeah, I think absolutely. The UK betting market is about a decade ahead of the US, as far as legalizing online betting. If you just walk around London, the betting shops are all over town. It&#8217;s those people over there are numbed to that culture. But as far as seeing where they are as foreshadowing where the US could be, there&#8217;s definitely been an awakening that, not that they&#8217;re going to ban betting anytime soon, but the public health consequences that come with it. I wrote it down anticipating that question.</p>
  2335.  
  2336.  
  2337.  
  2338. <p>There was a study last year that found that what they called gambling related harms cost the UK $2.3 billion annually. So that&#8217;s a case where sure, they maybe get tax revenue. Sure, it might create jobs, but the harms are clearly outweighing the gains, at least according to this study. And you&#8217;ve got similar studies in the US showing that the economic price of&#8230; The economic activity goes down in states that have vibrant legal betting markets, even if they&#8217;re bringing in certain amount of gambling tax revenue. Again, the scales are imbalanced. Beyond that, gambling addiction, there is just a fact of life and it&#8217;s ubiquitous if you go to a soccer match just like it&#8217;s becoming at all sorts of American sports. So yeah, a lot of warning signs of where the US market could be headed.</p>
  2339.  
  2340.  
  2341.  
  2342. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2343.  
  2344.  
  2345.  
  2346. <p>Now, I haven&#8217;t been surprised to see the explosion of sports gambling. I haven&#8217;t been surprised to see the rise in addiction rates. I&#8217;ll tell you what has surprised me, is seeing how this has been embraced by members of the sports media. What are the implications of seeing so many established, grade A, trusted members of the sports media embracing this, giving odds during games, and becoming spokespeople for sports betting? That has surprised me. What are the implications of that, in your mind?</p>
  2347.  
  2348.  
  2349.  
  2350. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2351.  
  2352.  
  2353.  
  2354. <p>I think it&#8217;s definitely normalized sports betting and made it seem acceptable to the mainstream. You could argue, in a lot of different things whether media is just a reflection like a mirror of society or whether it&#8217;s influencing society. I think there&#8217;s no doubt that there&#8217;s certainly been an influence in making sports betting just ubiquitous and intertwined with the fan experience.</p>
  2355.  
  2356.  
  2357.  
  2358. <p>One of the first articles I wrote on this topic was for the Columbia Journalism Review, looking at that question. What caught my interest actually was the ethical question of whether sports reporters should be betting on games. It seemed like a ripe opportunity for gambling&#8217;s version of insider trading, and I think some of that is definitely taking place. But just as far as media companies embracing gambling, there&#8217;s a lot of factors that made this the perfect time for sports betting to explode in the US. Definitely one of them is how so many sports outlets are in peril and facing brutal financial times.</p>
  2359.  
  2360.  
  2361.  
  2362. <p>I know you looked at Sports Illustrated recently in one of your recent episodes, they tried to latch on to this bandwagon licensing their name to a sportsbook in Colorado here and a few other states, that clearly didn&#8217;t write the ship. But yeah, from the biggest personalities in sports to the biggest names in sports, ESPN I think is a huge example, recently licensing their name to a sportsbook, and now you go on ESPN&#8217;s website, you turn on a game, you&#8217;re inundated with appeals to bet on ESPN BET.</p>
  2363.  
  2364.  
  2365.  
  2366. <p>I actually just spoke with a very knowledgeable sports better who worked as the oddsmaker as well. He was saying similar to you, that his eight-year-old son was seeing so many ESPN BET ads. This guy felt obligated to teach his son like the basics of probabilities, why betting is a losing venture for customers. It&#8217;s surreal to think that a parent would feel a responsibility to coach their eight-year-old on that as they might responsible drinking or the dangers of smoking, but that&#8217;s just the world we live in.</p>
  2367.  
  2368.  
  2369.  
  2370. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2371.  
  2372.  
  2373.  
  2374. <p>So if you were in charge of the sports world, how would you handle all of this? Is the wine simply out of the bottle and it&#8217;s just about managing the crisis? Is it possible to still ban this and get it out of sports? Where are we right now, and if you did have that kind of power, what could be done?</p>
  2375.  
  2376.  
  2377.  
  2378. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2379.  
  2380.  
  2381.  
  2382. <p>As I said earlier, I&#8217;m skeptical, just practically speaking, that any states are going to outlaw sports betting that have legalized it anytime soon. I think definitely when states go online and are a little late to the party like Ohio and Massachusetts in the last year or so, in North Carolina in recent months, they&#8217;re imposing much stricter regulations than some of the early states, just seeing bad examples of things that could easily have been avoided. So risk-free promotions were a reason why millions of people I think took up sports betting thinking, oh, this is literally free money, I can&#8217;t lose. You certainly could lose your money. You could also get hooked on gambling from a false sense of how easy it could be. Those have been stamped out. I think more promotions are basically fraudulent still and deceptive, and those could be policed more aggressively.</p>
  2383.  
  2384.  
  2385.  
  2386. <p>I think a fairly straightforward fix that if I was this sports betting czar I would see to is, in a lot of states, I think the regulatory apparatus just doesn&#8217;t cut it. Sometimes the state lottery is in charge of overseeing sports betting. Now, obviously the lottery is in the business of raising money for the states. What sort of incentive do they have to crack down on sportsbook operators that are bringing in betting revenue? Even more questionable I&#8217;d say, is when the lottery is in charge of running the sportsbook. In that case, you&#8217;ve got someone who&#8217;s functioning as an operator and a regulator. It&#8217;s no surprise that there are plenty of examples of them not self-policing very effectively.</p>
  2387.  
  2388.  
  2389.  
  2390. <p>So I think state by state, if you had a truly independent commission that was charged with overseeing sportsbooks, it would be a little bit of a fair fight. So often when customers say, hey, this is deceptive, hey, I&#8217;ve been screwed over by a sportsbook. The deck is stacked so much in favor of the operators of these companies. Those sorts of complaints, even when I think they&#8217;ve been wronged pretty egregiously, just go nowhere. So I think if you had a really aggressive independent regulator state by state, that would make a big difference, and there&#8217;s very few examples of that currently.</p>
  2391.  
  2392.  
  2393.  
  2394. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2395.  
  2396.  
  2397.  
  2398. <p>I want to paint a picture for you and I want you to tell me if I&#8217;m being a Cassandra.</p>
  2399.  
  2400.  
  2401.  
  2402. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2403.  
  2404.  
  2405.  
  2406. <p>Okay.</p>
  2407.  
  2408.  
  2409.  
  2410. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2411.  
  2412.  
  2413.  
  2414. <p>Or, if this is in the land of the possible, Chicken Little, if you will. Is there a future where sports gambling becomes so hegemonic to the fan experience that people start keeping their kids away, they don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s necessarily appropriate. The audience for sports thins, the profit margins do not. People start thinking the fix might be in, so they start drifting away. And at the end of the day, gambling which has been so profitable as a revenue stream, actually hollows out sports as we know it. Is that in the land of the possible, like an actual darn near destruction of this incredibly vast athletic industrial complex?</p>
  2415.  
  2416.  
  2417.  
  2418. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2419.  
  2420.  
  2421.  
  2422. <p>Man, that really got my wheels turning. I hadn&#8217;t thought of that, and yeah, it seems feasible. The leagues are certainly betting against it. You brought up the integrity of the game like, do we think matches are fixed? There was always some of that, but it&#8217;s just gone through the roofs post legalization. Even players like Rudy Gobert on the Minnesota Timberwolves, made this money, just got a referee recently and got a $100,000 fine for it. The obvious insinuation is he&#8217;s saying the ref is on the take. Maybe he&#8217;s looking out for a bet by swelling with his whistle or something. The confidence in the integrity of the games has definitely taken a hit, and yet the leagues aren&#8217;t spooked enough by that to really do anything about it. So that&#8217;s something that I&#8217;m really interested in.</p>
  2423.  
  2424.  
  2425.  
  2426. <p>As far as people saying, let me keep my kids away from sports. I just find American sports are so deeply rooted. I don&#8217;t know. I mean, maybe parents don&#8217;t take their kids to the racetracks because they don&#8217;t want them to start betting on horses. That might be a precedent worth looking at. But as far as football, basketball, golf, baseball, major sports that are the first things we talk about when we meet people, I don&#8217;t know, that feels a little out there, but I&#8217;ll definitely keep an eye on it.</p>
  2427.  
  2428.  
  2429.  
  2430. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2431.  
  2432.  
  2433.  
  2434. <p>Hey, horse racing and boxing were once two of the most popular sports in the United States, so just because something is doesn&#8217;t mean it will always be. I can&#8217;t let you go without mentioning that you&#8217;re doing a book and I was hoping you could tell us something about the book. What about sports gambling are you set to explore? What&#8217;s your thesis? What are you going for with this book?</p>
  2435.  
  2436.  
  2437.  
  2438. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2439.  
  2440.  
  2441.  
  2442. <p>Thank you for asking. I would say what I&#8217;m going for is I want to rewind a bit because I feel like just as a sports fan myself, as someone who follows politics pretty closely, it felt like the Supreme Court opened the door for states to start legalizing, and then seemingly overnight it was just, okay, New Jersey, Delaware. Soon after that, New York, Illinois, we&#8217;re up to 38 states counting Nevada that have legalized, as I said, more are going to do so. You don&#8217;t hear a robust public debate about that. It seems like, okay, this is a money making opportunity for states, we used to be adamantly against it, but now other states are doing it so we got to get on board. The leagues used to speak about sports betting literally as an evil that was poisonous to sports. Now, they&#8217;re sports betting&#8217;s biggest backers, again, seemingly overnight.</p>
  2443.  
  2444.  
  2445.  
  2446. <p>So with the book, I definitely want to force us to have a serious conversation about these pros and cons, whether, as we&#8217;ve talked about today, the harms outweigh the positives. I also want to pull back the curtain a bit on what goes on inside of sportsbooks. We see ads for FanDuel and DraftKings and the Caesars, pretty much everywhere. I don&#8217;t think a lot of us know exactly how those companies operate, how they think, how think about betters, what their motivations are, and I&#8217;m going to definitely get inside of those companies and give a close up look at how they approach this game and trying to anticipate where this is all going. As we&#8217;ve talked about looking at Europe, even just looking at states that are a couple of years ahead of some of the others and the second guessing they&#8217;re having about what they&#8217;ve signed up for.</p>
  2447.  
  2448.  
  2449.  
  2450. <p>So it&#8217;s a bit retrospective. It&#8217;s a bit of making sense of this chaotic world we&#8217;re living in and looking forward and seeing, as I said, we&#8217;re in the early innings. Is this going to be something that the powers that be are going to wish they hadn&#8217;t signed up for?</p>
  2451.  
  2452.  
  2453.  
  2454. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2455.  
  2456.  
  2457.  
  2458. <p>Wow, it sounds like a book we desperately need. Will you come back when it drops? Come back on the show?</p>
  2459.  
  2460.  
  2461.  
  2462. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2463.  
  2464.  
  2465.  
  2466. <p>I&#8217;d love to, yeah, I&#8217;ll be in touch. I won&#8217;t forget it. Can&#8217;t wait to do that.</p>
  2467.  
  2468.  
  2469.  
  2470. <p>Dave Zirin:</p>
  2471.  
  2472.  
  2473.  
  2474. <p>Awesome. Danny Funt, thank you so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports.</p>
  2475.  
  2476.  
  2477.  
  2478. <p>Daniel Funt:</p>
  2479.  
  2480.  
  2481.  
  2482. <p>Thank you, take care.</p>
  2483. ]]></content:encoded>
  2487. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313482</post-id> </item>
  2488. <item>
  2489. <title>Will the Palestinian groups create a new Palestinian political project?</title>
  2490. <link>https://therealnews.com/will-the-palestinian-groups-create-a-new-palestinian-political-project</link>
  2492. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Vijay Prashad]]></dc:creator>
  2493. <pubDate>Fri, 10 May 2024 15:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
  2494. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  2495. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  2496. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  2497. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  2498. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  2499. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313375</guid>
  2500.  
  2501. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="450" height="253" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?fit=450%2C253&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="1970 - Arafat with Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine leader, Nayef Hawatmeh and Palestinian writer Kamal Nasser at press conference in Amman. Palestinian groups are now trying to strengthen their existing unity. Photo: Wikimedia commons" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?w=450&amp;ssl=1 450w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?resize=300%2C169&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?resize=400%2C225&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?fit=450%2C253&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The first task is to prevent the attack on Rafah and end the genocide. However, soon thereafter, the political malaise that has befallen the Palestinian people must be overcome.]]></description>
  2502. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="450" height="253" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?fit=450%2C253&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="1970 - Arafat with Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine leader, Nayef Hawatmeh and Palestinian writer Kamal Nasser at press conference in Amman. Palestinian groups are now trying to strengthen their existing unity. Photo: Wikimedia commons" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?w=450&amp;ssl=1 450w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?resize=300%2C169&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?resize=400%2C225&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Arafat_in_Jordan.jpeg?fit=450%2C253&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  2503. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:33% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="225" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PD-Logo.png?resize=780%2C225&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-289490 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PD-Logo.png?w=1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PD-Logo.png?resize=300%2C87&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PD-Logo.png?resize=768%2C222&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PD-Logo.png?resize=400%2C116&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PD-Logo.png?resize=706%2C204&amp;ssl=1 706w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PD-Logo.png?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  2504. <p><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://peoplesdispatch.org/2024/05/08/will-the-palestinian-groups-create-a-new-palestinian-political-project/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Peoples Dispatch</a> on May 08, 2024. It is shared here under a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 (CC BY-SA) license.</em></p>
  2505. </div></div>
  2506.  
  2507.  
  2508.  
  2509. <p class="has-drop-cap">In Cairo, representatives from Hamas <a href="https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-ceasefire-talks-continue-cairo-israel-pounds-palestinian-enclave-2024-05-05/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">held</a> indirect negotiations with Israel for a ceasefire. The sticking point for several of the rounds was the order of events. Israel wanted the hostages to be released before it would stop the bombing, while Hamas said that the bombing must stop first. Israel has called for the disarming and dismantling of Hamas, which is a maximalist demand unlikely to be met. Hamas meanwhile would like not only a ceasefire but an end to the war. Both sides blamed each other, which made the task of the Egyptian and Qatari negotiators more difficult.</p>
  2510.  
  2511.  
  2512.  
  2513. <p>The best outcome possible from the Cairo talks is an end to the current genocidal war against the Palestinians in Gaza. The negotiations to end the war took on an extra urgency as Israel <a href="https://peoplesdispatch.org/2024/05/06/israel-orders-forced-displacement-of-eastern-rafah-amounting-to-war-crime/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">bombed</a> the edge of Rafah, the only city in Gaza not yet decimated by Israel. With no place to flee, the Palestinian civilians in Rafah cannot be sheltered from any attack, even if it is not as violent as conducted by the Israeli army against Gaza City and Khan Younis. Those attacks have <a href="https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1149126" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">created</a> 37 million tons of rubble, which are filled with contaminants and an immense number of unexploded bombs (which will take 14 years to disarm). Israel believes that the last organized remnants of Hamas exist in Rafah, and that it will either bomb the millions who live there to destroy it, or it will have to agree to destroy itself through negotiations. Both are unacceptable to the Palestinians, who neither want more civilian casualties nor the break-up of one of the fiercest defenders of the right of Palestinians to self-determination.</p>
  2514.  
  2515.  
  2516.  
  2517. <p>Despite Hamas’s agreement with the ceasefire proposal, Israel launched violent attacks on Rafah and <a href="https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-seizes-operational-control-rafah-crossing-gaza" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">seized</a> control of the Rafah crossing into Egypt (thereby cutting off the main access route for aid into Gaza). The talks continue but Israel is simply unwilling to take them seriously.</p>
  2518.  
  2519.  
  2520.  
  2521. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-palestinian-unity"><strong>Palestinian unity</strong></h2>
  2522.  
  2523.  
  2524.  
  2525. <p>Israel’s disregard for the negotiations and the level of its violence can be measured based on two political realities. It does not take negotiations with the Palestinians seriously and it feels that it can bomb with impunity. This is so because, firstly, Israel is backed fully by the Global North states (mainly the United States and Europe) and secondly, it does not regard Palestinian political views as vital because it has succeeded in breaking the political unity amongst Palestinians and it has succeeded in politically disorienting the various factions by the arrest of their main leadership. This does not entirely apply to Hamas, whose leadership was able to set up operations in Damascus and then later in Doha, Qatar. While it is impossible to imagine a rapid about-face from the Global North countries, it has become entirely clear to the Palestinian factions that absent their unity there will be no way to compel Israel to end its genocidal war, and then of course its occupation of Palestinian lands combined with its apartheid policies inside Israel.</p>
  2526.  
  2527.  
  2528.  
  2529. <p>In late April 2023, Hamas <a href="https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/30/china-says-palestinian-rivals-hamas-and-fatah-met-for-talks-in-beijing" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">met</a> with Fatah, the other major Palestinian political force, in China as part of a long process to create common ground between them. Relations between these two major political parties broke down in 2006-07, when Hamas won the parliamentary elections in Gaza and when Fatah—in charge of the Palestine Authority—contested these results; indeed, the two factions fought each other militarily in Gaza before Fatah retreated to the West Bank. During Israel’s genocidal war, both Fatah and Hamas sought to bridge the gap and not to permit their differences to allow both the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza and the defeat of Palestinian political aims in general. High representatives of these two parties <a href="https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/29/palestinian-unity-on-agenda-as-hamas-fatah-leaders-to-meet-in-moscow#:~:text=Representatives%2520from%2520Palestinian%2520political%2520factions,killed%2520more%2520than%252030%252C000%2520people." target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">met</a> in Moscow earlier this year, and again in China in May.</p>
  2530.  
  2531.  
  2532.  
  2533. <p>For this meeting in China, Fatah sent its senior leaders, including Azzam al-Ahmad (who is on the central committee and leads its Palestinian reconciliation team), while Hamas sent equally senior leaders, including Mousa Abu Marzouk (a member of the party’s Political Bureau and its de facto Foreign Minister). The negotiations did not result in a final agreement, but—as part of a long process—it has deepened the dialogue and the political will between the two parties to work together against the Israeli genocidal war and the occupation. Further meetings at this high level are being planned, with a joint statement to follow later regarding a call—<a href="https://www.mfa.gov.cn/eng/zxxx_662805/202405/t20240507_11293718.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">encouraged</a> by China’s President Xi Jinping—for an international peace conference to end the war and a joint Palestinian platform regarding the way forward.</p>
  2534.  
  2535.  
  2536.  
  2537. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-gaps"><strong>Gaps</strong></h2>
  2538.  
  2539.  
  2540.  
  2541. <p>Fatah, the anchor of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), was founded in 1959 by three men, two of whom came from the Muslim Brotherhood (Khalil al-Wazir and Salah Khalaf) and one of whom who came from the General Union of Palestinian students and would eventually become the main leader (Yasser Arafat). The PLO established itself as the core of the Palestinian struggle against the catastrophe of 1948 that lost them their lands, made them second-class citizens inside Israel, and sent hundreds of thousands of Palestinians into decades of exile. The Muslim Brotherhood imprint did not form within the PLO, which took on a national liberation tone that was sharpened by the various left factions such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP, formed in 1967) and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP, formed in1968).</p>
  2542.  
  2543.  
  2544.  
  2545. <p>The PLO became hegemonic in the Palestinian struggle, coordinating the political work in the camps of the exiles and the armed struggle of the&nbsp;<em>fedayeen</em>&nbsp;(fighters). The factions of the PLO faced concerted attack from Israel, which invaded Lebanon to exile the leadership and its core to Tunisia. With the fall of the USSR, the PLO began to negotiate earnestly with the Israelis and the United States, both of which imposed a form of surrender on the Palestinians called the 1993 Oslo Accords. Fatah took charge of the Palestinian Authority, which operated partially to maintain the Israeli occupation of East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank.</p>
  2546.  
  2547.  
  2548.  
  2549. <p>Angered by what appeared to be a Palestinian surrender at Oslo, eight factions formed the Alliance of Palestinian Factions in 1993. Within this Alliance, the largest groups belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood tradition. They included Palestinian Islamic Jihad (formed in 1981) and Hamas (formed in 1987). The PFLP and DFLP initially joined this alliance but left in 1998 over differences with the Islamic parties. The Islamist parties won the parliamentary elections in Gaza with a slim margin (Hamas’s 44 percent against Fatah’s 41 percent), a result that angered Israel and the Global North states who then tried to undermine them.</p>
  2550.  
  2551.  
  2552.  
  2553. <p>The path to political power through the ballot box having been denied them, and then facing sustained Israeli suffocation and bombardment of Gaza, both Hamas and Islamic Jihad strengthened their armed wings and defended themselves against humiliation and attack. Every attempt at peaceful protest—<a href="https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2310/S00017/the-savagery-of-the-war-against-the-palestinian-people.htm" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">including</a> the Long March of Return in 2018 and 2019—was met with Israeli violence. There has never been a moment when the people of Gaza have experienced a year of peace since 2007. The current bombardment, however, is at a different scale than even the worst of the previous attacks by Israel in 2008 and 2014.</p>
  2554.  
  2555.  
  2556.  
  2557. <p>The main political disagreements between the factions include their different interpretation of the Oslo Accords, their respective ambition for political control, and their separate aspirations for Palestinian society. That their political leaders have been imprisoned for decades and that they have been prevented from normal, democratic political activity (such as maintaining their political structures and as canvassing the people) has prevented them from bridging their distances. However, in prison the leadership have had sustained dialogues on these issues. Right after the parliamentary elections in Gaza, the leaders of the five major factions imprisoned in Israel’s Hadarim prison <a href="https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208621/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">wrote</a> a <em>National Conciliation Document of the Prisoners</em>. Marwan Barghouti of Fatah, Abdel Raheem Malluh of the PFLP, Mustafa Badarneh of the DFLP, Abdel Khaleq al-Natsh of Hamas, and Bassam al-Saadi of Islamic Jihad.</p>
  2558.  
  2559.  
  2560.  
  2561. <p>The&nbsp;<em>Document of the Prisoners</em>, which was widely circulated and discussed, called for Palestinian unity and an end to “all forms of division that could lead to internal strife.” The text did not lay out a new Palestinian political agenda, but it called for the various factions “to formulate a Palestinian plan aimed at comprehensive political action.” The development of this plan, now almost 20 years later, is a major objective of the talks between the various Palestinian political organizations.</p>
  2562.  
  2563.  
  2564.  
  2565. <p>There is agreement that the first task is to prevent the attack on Rafah and to end the genocidal war against the Palestinians. However, soon thereafter, the sense is that the political malaise that has befallen the Palestinian people must be overcome and a new political project must be used to motivate a new political atmosphere amongst the Palestinians within Israel’s borders, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory of East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank, in the refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria, and in the 6 million strong Palestinian diaspora.</p>
  2566. ]]></content:encoded>
  2570. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313375</post-id> </item>
  2571. <item>
  2572. <title>The Vote Uncommitted campaign wants to pressure Biden to champion a ceasefire in Gaza</title>
  2573. <link>https://therealnews.com/the-vote-uncommitted-campaign-wants-to-pressure-biden-to-champion-a-ceasefire-in-gaza</link>
  2575. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc Steiner]]></dc:creator>
  2576. <pubDate>Thu, 09 May 2024 18:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
  2577. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  2578. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  2579. <category><![CDATA[The Marc Steiner Show]]></category>
  2580. <category><![CDATA[elections 2024]]></category>
  2581. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  2582. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  2583. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  2584. <category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
  2585. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313310</guid>
  2586.  
  2587. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="President Joe Biden speaks to a crowd during the South Carolina Democratic Party First in the Nation Celebration and dinner at the state fairgrounds on January 27, 2024 in Columbia, South Carolina. Photo by Sean Rayford/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Widespread outrage at Biden's support for Israel's genocide in Gaza has turned the Democratic primary into a battleground for the party's future.]]></description>
  2588. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="President Joe Biden speaks to a crowd during the South Carolina Democratic Party First in the Nation Celebration and dinner at the state fairgrounds on January 27, 2024 in Columbia, South Carolina. Photo by Sean Rayford/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1958544021-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  2589. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  2590. <iframe title="Vote Uncommitted’s plan to push Biden on Gaza ceasefire | The Marc Steiner Show" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/h9MfClIsncQ?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  2591. </div></figure>
  2592.  
  2593.  
  2594.  
  2595. <p class="has-drop-cap">Across the country, Democrats are organizing campaigns to vote uncommitted in the primary elections. Yet the aims of this movement are to do more than simply register dissent against Biden&#8217;s support for Israel&#8217;s genocide in Gaza. <a href="https://www.uncommittedmovement.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Uncommitted Campaign</a> will pick up delegates in every state and congressional district where more than 15% of voters cast an uncommitted primary ballot—creating the possibility of leverage within the party at the upcoming DNC. Vote Uncommitted organizers from <a href="https://listentomaryland.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">the state of Maryland</a> join <em>The Marc Steiner Show</em> to discuss the campaign and its implications for the election.</p>
  2596.  
  2597.  
  2598.  
  2599. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  2600. <p>Studio /Post-Production: Cameron Granadino</p>
  2601. </blockquote>
  2602.  
  2603.  
  2604.  
  2605. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  2606.  
  2607.  
  2608.  
  2609. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  2610.  
  2611.  
  2612.  
  2613. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  2614.  
  2615.  
  2616.  
  2617. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2618.  
  2619.  
  2620.  
  2621. <p>Welcome to the Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I&#8217;m Marc Steiner. It&#8217;s great to have you all with us once again. In this 2024 Democratic Primary Race for President, there&#8217;s another candidate of sorts that in some states has taken a share of the votes, 29% in Hawaii, 19% in Minnesota. And those votes have generated and been generated by the Uncommitted Campaign, opposing US support for Israel in this war in Gaza that&#8217;s devastating Gaza, among other issues. It began in the Michigan primary, where over 100,000 Democrats voted uncommitted and it grew from there.</p>
  2622.  
  2623.  
  2624.  
  2625. <p>So some of the leaders of that campaign are joining us today. The leaders here in the state of Maryland. We are joined in studio by Ryan Harvey. Ryan Harvey is a longtime activist in this community, and one of the organizers of Listen to Maryland Vote Uncommitted Campaign. Ryan, good to see you again.</p>
  2626.  
  2627.  
  2628.  
  2629. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  2630.  
  2631.  
  2632.  
  2633. <p>You too, Marc.</p>
  2634.  
  2635.  
  2636.  
  2637. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2638.  
  2639.  
  2640.  
  2641. <p>And two folks I&#8217;ve not met, but I&#8217;m looking forward to talking with. We have joining us today, Lyle Rubin, who is a Marine veteran of the war in Afghanistan, author of Pain is Weakness Leaving The Body, and he&#8217;s based in the Baltimore area. Good to have you with us, Lyle. Good to meet you.</p>
  2642.  
  2643.  
  2644.  
  2645. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  2646.  
  2647.  
  2648.  
  2649. <p>Thanks. Thanks for having me.</p>
  2650.  
  2651.  
  2652.  
  2653. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2654.  
  2655.  
  2656.  
  2657. <p>And Anna Evans-Goldstein is with us, a longtime organizer and activist. She&#8217;s a member of the Greater Baltimore Residents for Ceasefire Group and an organizer with Listen to Maryland Vote Uncommitted campaign. So good to have you all with us.</p>
  2658.  
  2659.  
  2660.  
  2661. <p>Anna Evans-Goldstein:</p>
  2662.  
  2663.  
  2664.  
  2665. <p>Thanks.</p>
  2666.  
  2667.  
  2668.  
  2669. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2670.  
  2671.  
  2672.  
  2673. <p>Let&#8217;s take step backwards and talk a bit about the history of how this campaign started and why. It seems to really be growing to serious numbers of voting uncommitted. Let&#8217;s talk about what that means. And Anna, you&#8217;re the first person I talked to about this, at least for this show. Let me start with you.</p>
  2674.  
  2675.  
  2676.  
  2677. <p>Anna Evans-Goldstein:</p>
  2678.  
  2679.  
  2680.  
  2681. <p>So it actually got started in January in New Hampshire and they had a campaign around writing in on the ballot, and it kind of took off from there. So you mentioned some of the states that have had really successful turnouts, but in each state that&#8217;s had a primary so far, there&#8217;s been some sort of option, either the official vote uncommitted or a write-in campaign, and it&#8217;s really taken off. And we&#8217;re really excited here in Maryland to be following suit with what&#8217;s been going on across the country, particularly because we are historically just a democratic state. We have gone blue in all of the last elections for the last 30 years. And so it really sends a very strong message coming from a state such as ours that the Democratic Party at large is calling for a ceasefire and we want to be listened to.</p>
  2682.  
  2683.  
  2684.  
  2685. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2686.  
  2687.  
  2688.  
  2689. <p>Let me just, a little background for a second. You&#8217;re a veteran, you fought in Afghanistan?</p>
  2690.  
  2691.  
  2692.  
  2693. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  2694.  
  2695.  
  2696.  
  2697. <p>I am.</p>
  2698.  
  2699.  
  2700.  
  2701. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2702.  
  2703.  
  2704.  
  2705. <p>Right?</p>
  2706.  
  2707.  
  2708.  
  2709. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  2710.  
  2711.  
  2712.  
  2713. <p>Yeah, I was in Afghanistan in 2010 during the surge.</p>
  2714.  
  2715.  
  2716.  
  2717. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2718.  
  2719.  
  2720.  
  2721. <p>So talk about what brought you into this campaign.</p>
  2722.  
  2723.  
  2724.  
  2725. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  2726.  
  2727.  
  2728.  
  2729. <p>Well, I&#8217;m Jewish, aside from just being a veteran. So when I was younger, I actually worked for APAC. I worked as a summer campus intern. I actually was a bit of their poster board. I sat on their board of directors as one of the student activists for a year.</p>
  2730.  
  2731.  
  2732.  
  2733. <p>So I&#8217;ve been through my own journey. I became very disillusioned with my own mission in Afghanistan as a Marine officer. And through that experience, I began becoming disillusioned with much of US foreign policy and just the role that the United States has played in so many parts of the world. And again, being Jewish and having a prior history with APAC, I did end up focusing a lot on Palestine solidarity work as a graduate student. I&#8217;m a writer, so I&#8217;ve written some on this issue and I&#8217;ve just studied it for years now. So it&#8217;s something that I care a lot about.</p>
  2734.  
  2735.  
  2736.  
  2737. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2738.  
  2739.  
  2740.  
  2741. <p>That&#8217;s a huge leap from APAC to being part of Ceasefire.</p>
  2742.  
  2743.  
  2744.  
  2745. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  2746.  
  2747.  
  2748.  
  2749. <p>I would say so, yeah.</p>
  2750.  
  2751.  
  2752.  
  2753. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2754.  
  2755.  
  2756.  
  2757. <p>So that could be a conversation itself. And Ryan, so you&#8217;re no stranger to these kind of activist projects. So talk a bit about what draw you into this one though.</p>
  2758.  
  2759.  
  2760.  
  2761. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  2762.  
  2763.  
  2764.  
  2765. <p>Yeah. Well, similar to Anna, we&#8217;re both part of a little crew called Greater Baltimore Residents versus Ceasefire for folks in the area. We first started organizing a pressure campaign to try to get Representative Mfume to call for a ceasefire, organized a big sit-in his office, brought a bunch of people out. And then following that, we built this sign-on letter with the goal of getting 25 local Baltimore area organizations to publicly sign on calling on our congressional delegation to call for a ceasefire. We ended up getting now 200 organizations and small businesses.</p>
  2766.  
  2767.  
  2768.  
  2769. <p>So we&#8217;ve been just, since October 7th and the response by Israel, we&#8217;ve been just trying to work to identify strategic ways that we can build pressure on the US government to call for a ceasefire and to really pull its weight in regards to Israel. So the Uncommitted Campaign, we saw that popping off in various states and we saw that Maryland is one of those states where uncommitted is actually on the ballot, so it&#8217;s counted as a candidate. And we decided to initiate a campaign and then found out there was another group doing the same and we merged forces and here I am.</p>
  2770.  
  2771.  
  2772.  
  2773. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2774.  
  2775.  
  2776.  
  2777. <p>So the Uncommitted Campaign came in place, if it gets X number of votes in certain states, in this state or any other state, it gets delegates, right? The DNC?</p>
  2778.  
  2779.  
  2780.  
  2781. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  2782.  
  2783.  
  2784.  
  2785. <p>Yeah.</p>
  2786.  
  2787.  
  2788.  
  2789. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2790.  
  2791.  
  2792.  
  2793. <p>Is that correct?</p>
  2794.  
  2795.  
  2796.  
  2797. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  2798.  
  2799.  
  2800.  
  2801. <p>If we get 15% of the state or if we get 15% of any given congressional district, you&#8217;ll be allotted delegates.</p>
  2802.  
  2803.  
  2804.  
  2805. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2806.  
  2807.  
  2808.  
  2809. <p>I want to wrestle a minute with a couple of larger political issues when comes to this campaign. I&#8217;m curious to see how you see this playing out politically in our country right now. We have this horrendous war taking place in Gaza, post 50,000 people have been killed. People lost under the rubble. Many more wounded. Talked to a friend of mine today who&#8217;s a local rabbi, who&#8217;s actually acting as a medic in Gaza to help Palestinians, and his stories were just really hard to listen to. So we have that and that&#8217;s what&#8217;s motivating this Uncommitted Campaign. We&#8217;re also faced in this country with the Democratic Party, which is divided between progressives and this neoliberal establishment that actually runs the party. On the other side, you have these neo-fascist racists who could actually win the election. So talk a bit about that in terms of strategically how you see the work you&#8217;re doing on Uncommitted fitting into that kind of more complex, not more, but that complex picture of what we face politically. And Anna, let me let you start.</p>
  2810.  
  2811.  
  2812.  
  2813. <p>Anna Evans-Goldstein:</p>
  2814.  
  2815.  
  2816.  
  2817. <p>Yeah, well, a couple points. For the current Uncommitted Campaign, Biden is not running against Trump in the primary. The primary is a standalone for the Democratic Party. And so we see this as an opportunity to push Biden on a key issue that democratic voters have already been expressing for over seven months now that they care about. Over 75% of Democrats want a ceasefire and have been calling for a ceasefire consistently. And the Biden administration continues to not listen. And so there&#8217;s this great mechanism in our country for registering dissent and sending a message. It&#8217;s electoral politics. We don&#8217;t get polled on our policy preferences, but we do get to vote in a candidate or vote against a candidate, and this is the mechanism to do that in the primary.</p>
  2818.  
  2819.  
  2820.  
  2821. <p>So that&#8217;s one sort of big overarching point. And underlying all of that, just to kind of hammer in on pushing Biden to be the best candidate, if we&#8217;re talking about the general election in November, Trump has already said that he unequivocally supports Israel. It will be unconditional support. And so if we&#8217;re talking about making the better candidate that can beat Trump in November, we want Biden to call for an immediate ceasefire. We want Biden to use his weight to push Israel to stop its genocide. And so this is really both a mechanism for registering our dissent that we have been pushed to because our protests, our calls, our emails have not been listened to, but it&#8217;s also a way to demand the candidate that the party wants.</p>
  2822.  
  2823.  
  2824.  
  2825. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2826.  
  2827.  
  2828.  
  2829. <p>Were you about to say something, Ryan?</p>
  2830.  
  2831.  
  2832.  
  2833. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  2834.  
  2835.  
  2836.  
  2837. <p>I was just nodding in agreement.</p>
  2838.  
  2839.  
  2840.  
  2841. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2842.  
  2843.  
  2844.  
  2845. <p>Okay.</p>
  2846.  
  2847.  
  2848.  
  2849. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  2850.  
  2851.  
  2852.  
  2853. <p>But there&#8217;s something really important that we&#8217;re seeing, right? The United States has a progressive movement, dare I say, we have a bit of a left in the last 10 years. And what the Democratic Party has been doing for decades has been bending to the right, wherever possible, whether that&#8217;s on military stuff, whether it&#8217;s on domestic issues, whether it&#8217;s on trade and economics, thinking it&#8217;s a safe thing to do. Biden, in his last election, what took Biden from being the Joe Biden we remembered to being the, I&#8217;m going to be the most progressive president in American history? It was the Bernie Sanders campaign. It was the progressive movement. And he, after Super Tuesday, he brought a bunch of the Biden people. He brought people from the Sunrise movement and the Dreamers into the fold, and not just as a symbol, but said, &#8220;How do I win your people?&#8221;</p>
  2854.  
  2855.  
  2856.  
  2857. <p>That was the promise that brought Biden into office. The idea that they seem to be thinking, the party leadership, the people around Biden, seem to be thinking that the way to win this election is to try to get the anti-Trump Republican voters to get behind Biden and basically ignore all of the groups and the individuals, this whole generation that helped bring them into office. I think that&#8217;s foolish. It&#8217;s foolish and it&#8217;s morally wrong because of what&#8217;s beneath all of that. That scares me. And I think that this campaign, we&#8217;re not out here convincing Maryland voters to vote uncommitted. We&#8217;re not out there telling them, trying to convince them of one thing or another. We&#8217;re just finding people who are really angry, who might not be voting anyways.</p>
  2858.  
  2859.  
  2860.  
  2861. <p>On one hand, we&#8217;re giving them an opportunity to vote. We might even be kind of pulling them back, right? It&#8217;s giving Biden a lifeline. If we get whatever percentage of the vote, that&#8217;s not a testament to how good we are at convincing people of the issue. That&#8217;s a testament to where people are. This is a one-month campaign. We don&#8217;t have a lot of time to build these deep relationships with people. We&#8217;re just finding people who are out there. So I think that&#8217;s a really important thing for these folks to be paying attention to.</p>
  2862.  
  2863.  
  2864.  
  2865. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2866.  
  2867.  
  2868.  
  2869. <p>And Neil, jump in here. And where do you think this entire campaign takes us, politically?</p>
  2870.  
  2871.  
  2872.  
  2873. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  2874.  
  2875.  
  2876.  
  2877. <p>I think, well, just kind of dovetailing on what Ryan was just saying. I mean, another way to look at this is Biden won in 2020 because of a broad coalition that included young people, included progressives, included Arabs and Muslims, and a number of other people, people of color who identify not only with Palestinians, but with historically oppressed people in poor countries that aren&#8217;t white, that have been treated in similar manners throughout history. And I just think at a very pragmatic level, in order to win again, we need that same coalition. So what we&#8217;re trying to do here is not just a moral demand, although it very much is a moral demand, but it&#8217;s a strategic demand that Biden needs to move in such a way that he can regain the trust of that coalition and therefore beat Trump again. And if he doesn&#8217;t regain that trust, I think we&#8217;re at more risk of losing this election than if he does.</p>
  2878.  
  2879.  
  2880.  
  2881. <p>So that&#8217;s my major point. I also just want to reinforce that I&#8217;ve phone banked many times for many different causes. This is the easiest phone banking campaign I&#8217;ve ever taken part in. I hardly have to do any work, whether I&#8217;m talking to someone who&#8217;s very involved politically, someone who&#8217;s not particularly involved politically, someone who&#8217;s an active Democrat, someone who isn&#8217;t an active Democrat, it doesn&#8217;t really matter. It&#8217;s just amazing how many of them are aware of what&#8217;s going on in Gaza and how many of them are angry about it, and how many of them are willing to try to do whatever they can in their own lives to stop it. So I think strategically we need to win the upcoming presidential election, but I think we also need to harness this kind of anger and energy towards longer term goals that include a more peaceful, just engagement with the world, beyond just Gaza, beyond just Palestine.</p>
  2882.  
  2883.  
  2884.  
  2885. <p>I think the kind of elephant in the room for American politics, really since its inception, but certainly in modern times, has been this kind of imperial role that the US plays in so many parts of this world. This assumption, this arrogance that we reserve the right to rule over other peoples. We reserve the right not to listen to their own protests, and that needs to change. And I think all the young people rising up in universities right now, and for that matter, the Palestinians rising up with their own lives in Palestine, speaks to the urgency and need for that kind of change.</p>
  2886.  
  2887.  
  2888.  
  2889. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2890.  
  2891.  
  2892.  
  2893. <p>This is, I think the first time I can remember in terms of what&#8217;s happening in Palestine and Israel, the effect is having on this country is much different than ever before. I remember being a kid in &#8217;56 when the &#8217;56 war happened. In 1967, when the October war happened, I was on the front of the line to join the Israeli army to go fight. Even though I was an anti-war activist here, I was ready to go fight in Israel. But you see things that are really fundamentally changing.</p>
  2894.  
  2895.  
  2896.  
  2897. <p>And you can say part of it, I&#8217;ve seen people make arguments that part of it is being driven by anti-Semitism. There&#8217;s no question in my mind that that is a piece, always will be a piece of it. But the larger piece of it is young people saying no, and young Jews saying no. This is not in our name. I think this is a fundamental shift taking place because of this war, because of this destruction of Gaza and this wholesale slaughter of Palestinians and Gaza. There&#8217;s something really different about this moment and it could affect this election. I&#8217;d like to hear your analysis about where all that is. Go ahead, Anna, you want to start again?</p>
  2898.  
  2899.  
  2900.  
  2901. <p>Anna Evans-Goldstein:</p>
  2902.  
  2903.  
  2904.  
  2905. <p>Yeah. The first thing that came to mind while you were talking is that I think that a lot of our elected leaders are using the same playbook that they used when they tried to get into the Iraq war and it&#8217;s not working anymore. I think people went through that experience and they understand the propaganda and the tools that are being utilized against them to sway their opinion. And we just have access to the truth. We have access to all of the video and all of the photos and all of the in real time news that&#8217;s been coming out of Gaza. And it&#8217;s horrifying. And so people, they&#8217;re tired of it and there&#8217;s no way to hide it or pull the wool over people&#8217;s eyes. And so there&#8217;s sort of no other choice. I mean, I&#8217;ve been a pro-Palestine activist for a very long time.</p>
  2906.  
  2907.  
  2908.  
  2909. <p>This is just absolutely astronomical in terms of how many people are aware of what&#8217;s going on, have done their education, have looked into things, are talking to people about it. Even five years ago, people would sort of shy away from discussing Israel Palestine because it seemed too complicated. It&#8217;s not complicated. It&#8217;s very simple. And I think that people are actually understanding that now, especially because of the wave of organizing that&#8217;s happened in this country around state violence here. People are aware and they understand what&#8217;s going on because they&#8217;ve experienced it.</p>
  2910.  
  2911.  
  2912.  
  2913. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2914.  
  2915.  
  2916.  
  2917. <p>This campaign you&#8217;re involved in, where do you think it will take us politically at this moment? And B, coming back to what we were just talking about here, which is the profound effect this Gaza war is having on this country. I mean, more than I&#8217;ve ever seen before when it came to Israel Palestine. I&#8217;m curious where you politically all think all this is taking us because it&#8217;s coming to a crescendo.</p>
  2918.  
  2919.  
  2920.  
  2921. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  2922.  
  2923.  
  2924.  
  2925. <p>I think going back to this first question, there&#8217;s something really important that the Biden administration and other people in party leadership need to understand. It&#8217;s important for us to understand it too. This whole wave of protest, and I was part of the anti-Iraq war movement. This is more unpopular than the Iraq war, according to the polls. George Bush got reelected in the middle of the Iraq war.</p>
  2926.  
  2927.  
  2928.  
  2929. <p>That movement never had this kind of ability to put in a presidential election to be part of that conversation. Yes, it&#8217;s true. We&#8217;re seeing the videos, all of this. Yes, it&#8217;s true. The level of destruction is astronomical for sure, but this isn&#8217;t a blip. What has changed is that these young people on these college campuses, that&#8217;s the Iraq war generation. Lyle fought in Afghanistan, I lost good friends in Iraq. I lost more good friends when they came home from Iraq, from suicide. And from Afghanistan. This is a generation that was born and raised in war and economic crisis, and they&#8217;re the generation that brought us the Occupy Movement and the modern immigrant rights movement. Black Lives Matter. This is a whole, and they see these connections. These aren&#8217;t the folks on the campuses and us, we&#8217;re not just, we just started caring about Palestine. We care about a whole slate of very progressive issues because that&#8217;s been our experience in the world, and it&#8217;s what we want from our government.</p>
  2930.  
  2931.  
  2932.  
  2933. <p>It&#8217;s what we want from our country. It&#8217;s what we want in life. And the idea, if there&#8217;s people in power banking on the idea that people are going to forget about this by November, this is not going away. This is a cultural, political shift in the United States and in the world, and we want a political shift in the US government. And we thought we were going towards that the first few years of Biden. There was some hopeful things. There was some progress. There was some real, like Lyle was talking about, there was a real coalition. And not even to mention the climate activists who&#8217;ve been very much a part of the protests around Palestine. This is a generational shift. We&#8217;re here. It&#8217;s not going away. You can&#8217;t ignore it. That&#8217;s a huge, very important lesson for these folks to learn. It&#8217;s not the world from 20 years ago. It&#8217;s the world today, its different and it&#8217;s a significant factor.</p>
  2934.  
  2935.  
  2936.  
  2937. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2938.  
  2939.  
  2940.  
  2941. <p>Neil, you want to jump in on that?</p>
  2942.  
  2943.  
  2944.  
  2945. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  2946.  
  2947.  
  2948.  
  2949. <p>Yeah, I mean, I would just emphasize that, I mean, everything that Anne and Ryan have said is absolutely true, particularly when it comes to the generational shift. But I think it even goes beyond young people at this point. I mean, as someone who&#8217;s paid attention very much to veteran affairs and military family life. I mean, there&#8217;s just so many military families across the country whose lives have profoundly changed as a result of the war on terror. And a lot of them are therefore keened in to the flaws and really horrors of US foreign policy.</p>
  2950.  
  2951.  
  2952.  
  2953. <p>I mean, there was a major study that came out, I believe from the University of Michigan after the 2016 election, that showed that one of the reasons Trump might have won in the Midwest was that you had a lot of military families and people connected to the military that found Trump&#8217;s, it ended up being a false message, but he had an anti-war kind of rhetoric. And there are a lot of people in the Midwest who are very connected to the military industrial complex in one way or another that were moved by that. So yes, I think young people are certainly leading the charge, but I think it goes beyond just the youth.</p>
  2954.  
  2955.  
  2956.  
  2957. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2958.  
  2959.  
  2960.  
  2961. <p>I just want to, this campaign will be going on in the Maryland primary coming up and in primaries around the country. And as people who have kind of devoted their time to working this campaign and making it work here in this state, but connected to the country, where do you think it&#8217;s going to take us? Where do you think this campaign is going to take this battle around the war in Gaza and the coming election? What&#8217;s your analysis of where this takes us?</p>
  2962.  
  2963.  
  2964.  
  2965. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  2966.  
  2967.  
  2968.  
  2969. <p>Back to what I was saying before about the fact that there&#8217;s a progressive movement. It&#8217;s real, it&#8217;s large. And where I see this campaign going and all of these uncommitted campaigns, they&#8217;re not separate from the other protests that are happening. It&#8217;s all part of the same thing. And we see that when we talk to each other. This is not just about stopping what Israel&#8217;s doing right now to the Palestinians. It&#8217;s also about fighting for control and influence of this very popular group of people in the US who want our government to be different. And I think the question as to whether is it going to be Biden or Trump, I think there&#8217;s another very important question there, which is what&#8217;s the Democratic Party going to look like and what should it look like? And this is a fight about that, and it&#8217;s a very important fight because this has been happening&#8230;</p>
  2970.  
  2971.  
  2972.  
  2973. <p>I mean, a lot of these, I&#8217;m 40, right? My whole life has been defined in part by the Democratic Party talking about things and then not following through on them, making promises they don&#8217;t fulfill. Talking about these values, but then the corporate money speaks a lot louder, and you get what you get. And then it blew up in our faces when Trump was going around the country talking about the bad trade deals, talking about the failure of the Iraq war and the financial crisis and all of this. Democrats need to be worrying about policy, not about chasing the Republican rhetoric around it. You heard it a few weeks ago. Trump, the crowd behind him started chanting, &#8220;Genocide Joe,&#8221; and what did he say? &#8220;They&#8217;re not wrong.&#8221;</p>
  2974.  
  2975.  
  2976.  
  2977. <p>If he smells that that&#8217;s popular when campaign time comes around, I guarantee you he will run on being critical of Biden&#8217;s handling of this and criticizing him for being a murderer. If that&#8217;s going to get him elected, he will. And the Democrats are going to go, &#8220;Oh, we thought being tough, we thought sending the cops into the campuses and being no criticism of Israel was going to win us these people.&#8221; That&#8217;s not how the game works. And they&#8217;re playing a game and we&#8217;re not, right? We&#8217;re talking about real, we want fundamental changes in the US government. That&#8217;s what it&#8217;s about.</p>
  2978.  
  2979.  
  2980.  
  2981. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  2982.  
  2983.  
  2984.  
  2985. <p>And I think to kind of wrap things up here a little bit, Anna and Lyle, just picking up on what Ryan was saying, I mean, it seems to me that this war in Gaza is one of the most critical moments we face in modern history. Something is deeply shifting because of this war. You can see the momentum in this country, younger generations of Jews and others in this country saying no. And so you&#8217;ve all been involved in this stuff for a while.</p>
  2986.  
  2987.  
  2988.  
  2989. <p>So I&#8217;m curious where you think this takes us. What do you think is going to be, what are the possibilities where this could take us because of war in Gaza? It could lead to this neo-fascist state under Trump. It could lead to the Democrats kind of imploding, and it could be a disaster all through the Middle East. I mean, this is a very serious moment we&#8217;re facing. So I&#8217;d like to get your kind of thoughts on where you think it takes us. What&#8217;s your analysis and where it tells us? And let me start this time, go over to Neil and then coming to Anna. I mean, Lyle, excuse me.</p>
  2990.  
  2991.  
  2992.  
  2993. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  2994.  
  2995.  
  2996.  
  2997. <p>No problem. So I think one of the interesting things that we&#8217;ve seen in recent months, and particularly in recent weeks, is a number of labor unions standing up in solidarity with Palestine. You have the UAW that&#8217;s released multiple statements now, not just calling for a ceasefire, but also defending all the students that are getting beat up by cops and relating their own experience on the picket line getting beat up by cops with the students that are getting beat up. One of the first labor leaders to come out against Israeli action in Gaza was a Jewish anti-Zionist, the head of the, I believe, the postal workers union.</p>
  2998.  
  2999.  
  3000.  
  3001. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  3002.  
  3003.  
  3004.  
  3005. <p>The APWU.</p>
  3006.  
  3007.  
  3008.  
  3009. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  3010.  
  3011.  
  3012.  
  3013. <p>Yeah. Yeah. So I think there&#8217;s a lot of potential for broader coalition building in the years ahead. A kind of broad, if not maybe anti-imperialist front, then at least a broad kind of more progressive foreign policy front that I haven&#8217;t seen my entire lifetime. And I agree with you, Marc, that the major concern right now is just making sure that Trump and the neo-fascists don&#8217;t take power of the government and effectively preclude those types of possibilities. So I think we have to play two different games at the same time. One, we have to be very pragmatic and very focused about making sure that the far right doesn&#8217;t gain the kind of power that they potentially can gain. But we also have to look in a more forward-thinking way about what we want this country to actually look like in the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years.</p>
  3014.  
  3015.  
  3016.  
  3017. <p>Anna Evans-Goldstein:</p>
  3018.  
  3019.  
  3020.  
  3021. <p>Yeah, I just put a star next to both things that Lyle and Ryan said. Yes, I am scared by the potential prospect of the rise of the far right in this country. And that is a scary place that we could potentially go. But we&#8217;re in a scary place now. We are already in a scary place, and we have been for some time. And I think that the sort of more optimistic and positive view that I like to move with is that what we&#8217;re building right now is just the most broad-based coalition of progressive organizers, activists, voters, citizens, non-citizens in this country that we&#8217;ve ever seen. The Greater Baltimore residents for ceasefire letter that Ryan mentioned earlier, had the most broad based sign-ons from organizations that never would&#8217;ve worked together before then. You have people working together now that have never organized together, people kind of crossing into a realm that they&#8217;ve not been before with each other. And I just see that happening more and more. And I think that that&#8217;s really exciting. And I think that that actually can take us to a really positive place.</p>
  3022.  
  3023.  
  3024.  
  3025. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  3026.  
  3027.  
  3028.  
  3029. <p>And something I wanted to say, an important thing, if Trump gets re-elected, we&#8217;re the ones that are going to be facing that. These people in this movement, if there&#8217;s another Charlottesville, it&#8217;s going to be these people that are the ones that are there. Some of them were there, some of us were out in the streets facing the Proud Boys when they were marching in the buildup to January 6th. That&#8217;s who these protests are. It&#8217;s these young people. It&#8217;s diverse, real diversity. These people are at serious risk if Trump becomes the president. So we care extremely about that, of course. And we feel very, very strongly that the course that Biden&#8217;s going right now is the course that leads to a Trump re-election.</p>
  3030.  
  3031.  
  3032.  
  3033. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  3034.  
  3035.  
  3036.  
  3037. <p>I do thank the three of you, and Anna, the positive note you brought us, is really important for us to hear because it is building. And I think that the three of you putting all your efforts and literally your bodies on the line at times to stop what&#8217;s going on, both in terms of what&#8217;s happening in Gaza and for a better America. And I do appreciate the work you&#8217;re doing. It warms the cockles of an old activist&#8217;s heart, just to see the next generation really kind of standing up and organizing and saying, &#8220;There&#8217;s a different way to do this.&#8221; So we&#8217;ll see what happens in the primaries coming with the uncommitted vote. It&#8217;ll be here in Maryland, be across the country, and that will take people to the DNC, I&#8217;m sure, inside and outside. And we&#8217;ll be covering that as well. And I want to thank all three of you for being with us here today at the Steiner Show, Anna Evans-Goldstein, pleasure to going back and forth and helping put this together. Appreciate that time. Lyle Rubin, pleasure to meet you. And Ryan Harvey, always good to see you.</p>
  3038.  
  3039.  
  3040.  
  3041. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  3042.  
  3043.  
  3044.  
  3045. <p>Of course.</p>
  3046.  
  3047.  
  3048.  
  3049. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  3050.  
  3051.  
  3052.  
  3053. <p>So thanks to all three of you for being with us.</p>
  3054.  
  3055.  
  3056.  
  3057. <p>Ryan Harvey:</p>
  3058.  
  3059.  
  3060.  
  3061. <p>Thanks, Marc.</p>
  3062.  
  3063.  
  3064.  
  3065. <p>Lyle Rubin:</p>
  3066.  
  3067.  
  3068.  
  3069. <p>Thank you.</p>
  3070.  
  3071.  
  3072.  
  3073. <p>Anna Evans-Goldstein:</p>
  3074.  
  3075.  
  3076.  
  3077. <p>Thank you very much.</p>
  3078.  
  3079.  
  3080.  
  3081. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  3082.  
  3083.  
  3084.  
  3085. <p>And thank you once again for joining us today, all of you and our guests. And thanks to Cameron Granadino for running the show and editing this program and the tireless Kayla Rivara for making it all work behind the scenes. And everyone here at The Real News for making this show possible. So please let me know what you thought about what you heard today, what you&#8217;d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com and I&#8217;ll write to you right back. Once again, thank you to Anna Evans-Goldstein, Lyle Rubin, Ryan Harvey for the work they&#8217;re doing and for joining us today. So for the crew here at The Real News, I&#8217;m Marc Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.</p>
  3086. ]]></content:encoded>
  3090. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313310</post-id> </item>
  3091. <item>
  3092. <title>Despite threats from Johns Hopkins University, pro-Palestine demonstrators remain</title>
  3093. <link>https://therealnews.com/despite-threats-from-johns-hopkins-university-pro-palestine-demonstrators-remain</link>
  3095. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Jaisal Noor]]></dc:creator>
  3096. <pubDate>Thu, 09 May 2024 16:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
  3097. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  3098. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  3099. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  3100. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  3101. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  3102. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  3103. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  3104. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  3105. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313317</guid>
  3106.  
  3107. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Tents at the encampment at Johns Hopkins University on Wednesday, May 8, 2024. Credit: Myles Michelin" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?w=2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Representatives from the university handed out forms on Wednesday, May 8 asking demonstrators to agree to leave and not return]]></description>
  3108. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Tents at the encampment at Johns Hopkins University on Wednesday, May 8, 2024. Credit: Myles Michelin" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?w=2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-39.jpeg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  3109. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:18% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="160" height="122" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?resize=160%2C122&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-312851 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=160&amp;ssl=1 160w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=400&amp;ssl=1 400w" sizes="(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  3110. <p style="font-size:18px"><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://baltimorebeat.com/despite-threats-from-johns-hopkins-university-pro-palestine-demonstrators-remain/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Baltimore Beat</a> on May 09, 2024. It is shared here with permission.</em></p>
  3111. </div></div>
  3112.  
  3113.  
  3114.  
  3115. <p class="has-drop-cap">Despite threats of disciplinary action, pro-Palestine demonstrators encamped at Johns Hopkins University remained there the following day. </p>
  3116.  
  3117.  
  3118.  
  3119. <p>Representatives for the university handed out forms on Wednesday, May 8, asking demonstrators who had been camped out on the area known as “the beach” since the week before to agree to leave and not return. If they did so, the school officials said, they would “defer taking conduct action” against them.</p>
  3120.  
  3121.  
  3122.  
  3123. <p>“We refuse the University’s scare tactics,” the Hopkins Justice Collaborative said via a press release sent out Wednesday afternoon. “After yesterday’s meeting with the administration, which produced a miserable offer to the encampment, this move from the University reads as despicable and fear-mongering. The encampment has yet to receive any word from the administration about resuming negotiations.”</p>
  3124.  
  3125.  
  3126.  
  3127. <p>In a statement to Baltimore Beat, a JHU representative said, “We are pursuing other avenues for those who remain and would remind everyone that participation in the encampment is a trespass.” </p>
  3128.  
  3129.  
  3130.  
  3131. <figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img decoding="async" width="683" height="1024" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40.jpeg?resize=683%2C1024&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-313323" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40.jpeg?resize=683%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 683w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40.jpeg?resize=200%2C300&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40.jpeg?resize=768%2C1152&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40.jpeg?resize=1024%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40.jpeg?resize=1200%2C1800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40.jpeg?resize=400%2C600&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40.jpeg?w=1365&amp;ssl=1 1365w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-40-683x1024.jpeg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 683px) 100vw, 683px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Tents and sign at the encampment at Johns Hopkins University on May 8, 2024. Credit: Myles Michelin</figcaption></figure>
  3132.  
  3133.  
  3134.  
  3135. <p>Dozens of college campuses have launched protests amidst growing calls for a ceasefire in Gaza. The student movement is seeking to pressure institutions to cut ties with Israel over its war that’s killed over 40,000 Palestinians in the last seven months and is continuing to kill civilians.</p>
  3136.  
  3137.  
  3138.  
  3139. <p>The anti-war protests persist as Israel threatens a full-scale invasion of Rafah, a city on Gaza’s southern border with Egypt where 1.4 million Palestinians — more than half of the territory’s entire population — have sought refuge. The United Nations has <a href="https://apnews.com/article/israel-iran-hamas-latest-05-03-2024-fd7d9c386b70d8e175b3e55a999a9e1b" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">warned</a> that hundreds of thousands of civilians could die if Israel invades Rafah.</p>
  3140.  
  3141.  
  3142.  
  3143. <p>Under increasing pressure from young activists in the streets and <a href="https://www.propublica.org/article/blinken-israel-military-aid-human-rights-violations-leahy-law" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">within his own administration</a> to protect Palestinians from Israeli human rights violations, President Joe Biden on Wednesday threatened to halt additional military aid to Israel.</p>
  3144.  
  3145.  
  3146.  
  3147. <p>“I made it clear that if they go into Rafah … I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities – that deal with that problem,” Biden <a href="https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/08/politics/joe-biden-interview-cnntv/index.html?Date=20240508&amp;Profile=CNN&amp;utm_content=1715207129&amp;utm_medium=social&amp;utm_source=twitter" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told</a> CNN. Last month, Biden approved a $15 billion weapon shipment to Israel over the objections of over <a href="https://www.savethechildren.net/news/over-250-humanitarian-and-human-rights-organisations-join-call-end-arms-transfers-israel">250</a> human rights organizations.</p>
  3148.  
  3149.  
  3150.  
  3151. <p>Israel blames Hamas, the political and military organization that controls the Gaza Strip, for civilian deaths. Hamas killed 1,200 Israelis and captured 240 hostages during its deadly surprise attack on Oct. 7.&nbsp;</p>
  3152.  
  3153.  
  3154.  
  3155. <p>Earlier this week, Hamas agreed to a ceasefire deal, which Israel rejected, <a href="https://www.ktvu.com/news/israel-rejects-ceasefire-deal-presses-on-with-rafah-attacks" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reportedly</a> because it called for a permanent ceasefire. Amid negotiations, Israel <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/08/israel-rafah-crossing-gaza-aid-famine/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">seized</a> the Rafah border crossing, cutting off the main artery for food and humanitarian supplies into the region. </p>
  3156.  
  3157.  
  3158.  
  3159. <figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="519" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?resize=780%2C519&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-313325" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?resize=1024%2C682&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36.jpeg?w=1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Baltimore-Beat-JHU-Palestine-Sit-In-Photos-36-1024x682.jpeg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Banners hung at the Johns Hopkins University encampment on May 8, 2024. Photo credit: Myles Michelin</figcaption></figure>
  3160.  
  3161.  
  3162.  
  3163. <p>“If the crossing is not urgently reopened, the entire civilian population in Rafah and in the Gaza Strip will be at greater risk of famine, disease and death,” a UN official <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/08/israel-rafah-crossing-gaza-aid-famine/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told</a> the Washington Post.</p>
  3164.  
  3165.  
  3166.  
  3167. <p>Meanwhile, northern Gaza is already experiencing “full-blown famine,” <a href="https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/the-un-says-theres-full-blown-famine-in-northern-gaza#:~:text=Cindy%20McCain%20in%20an%20NBC,south%20in%20Gaza%2C%20she%20said." target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a> World Food Programme executive director Cindy McCain. McCain is the widow of late Republican Senator John McCain.  </p>
  3168.  
  3169.  
  3170.  
  3171. <p>A May 8&nbsp;<a href="https://www.filesforprogress.org/datasets/2024/5/dfp_zeteo_israel_palestine_crosstabs.pdf?utm_source=substack&amp;utm_medium=email">poll</a>&nbsp;from Data for Progress, a left-wing polling firm, found 70% of Americans and 83% of Democrats support a ceasefire in Gaza, 54% of Americans and 68% of Democrats supported suspending arms sales to Israel for blocking aid to Gaza. A majority also said they believed Israel is committed genocide in Gaza, including 56% of Democrats.&nbsp;</p>
  3172.  
  3173.  
  3174.  
  3175. <p>At the Hopkins encampments, activists say they remain committed to their protest in solidarity with Gaza as the conditions there grow more dire. Organizers say they are concerned the school will use force to evict them. The Baltimore Police Department has thus far found no reason to intervene against the encampment.&nbsp;</p>
  3176.  
  3177.  
  3178.  
  3179. <p>On May 7, representatives from seven Baltimore-area colleges held a joint press conference to collectively urge their schools to end ties with Israel.&nbsp;</p>
  3180.  
  3181.  
  3182.  
  3183. <p>“We organize in protest of the systemic violence against Palestinians, and all people, in recognition that peace cannot be achieved without freedom from oppression,” read the statement from students at Johns Hopkins University, Towson University, the University of Baltimore, University of Maryland, Baltimore County (UMBC), Maryland Institute College of Art (MICA), and Goucher College.</p>
  3184.  
  3185.  
  3186.  
  3187. <p>“There are no universities left in Gaza. It is our duty to recognize our position of privilege and refuse to be complicit in genocide,” the letter continued. “The students of Baltimore condemn the notion of “neutrality” in fighting for social justice and implore our universities to use their institutional power for the liberation of Palestine.”</p>
  3188.  
  3189.  
  3190.  
  3191. <p>In a statement, JHU said the university is “continuing to work to bring the encampment to a close given the serious risk of conflict and harm to the university community, as seen here already and at peer institutions around the country.”</p>
  3192.  
  3193.  
  3194.  
  3195. <p>On May 3, the Johns Hopkins Krieger School of Arts and Sciences (KSAS) Faculty Senate wrote a letter urging JHU President Ron Daniels to engage with protestors and not use force to disband the camp.</p>
  3196.  
  3197.  
  3198.  
  3199. <p>“[G]iven the non-violent nature of the protest, and the willingness of students to use this opportunity for education and training, we urge President Daniels to continue to follow principles of dialogue, engagement and de-escalation,” they wrote. “Wesleyan and Oberlin both are permitting encampments. We see no reason why it should be necessary to address the encampment at Hopkins through police action.”</p>
  3200.  
  3201.  
  3202.  
  3203. <p>According to a recent <a href="https://acleddata.com/2024/05/02/pro-palestine-us-student-protests-nearly-triple-in-april-acled-brief/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">report</a> from The Armed Conflict Location &amp; Event Data Project, “the overwhelming majority of student protests since October — 99% — have remained peaceful.”</p>
  3204.  
  3205.  
  3206.  
  3207. <p><a href="https://www.democracynow.org/appearances/daniel_levy" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Daniel Levy</a>, an Israeli peace negotiator under two former Israeli prime ministers and president of the U.S./Middle East Project who has turned into a fierce critic of the Israeli government,, said the protests are making an impact. </p>
  3208.  
  3209.  
  3210.  
  3211. <p>“People should not feel disheartened. What they are doing is having an impact: the fear of how this could play out politically. And so, I would say, in these crucial moments, those efforts should be redoubled because they are meaningful,” he <a href="https://www.democracynow.org/2024/5/7/daniel_levy_israel_rafah_ceasefire_hamas" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">told</a> the independent news program Democracy Now! </p>
  3212. ]]></content:encoded>
  3216. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313317</post-id> </item>
  3217. <item>
  3218. <title>&#8216;FreeHer&#8217; activists demand Biden release incarcerated women and girls ahead of Mother&#8217;s Day</title>
  3219. <link>https://therealnews.com/freeher-activists-demand-biden-release-incarcerated-women-and-girls-ahead-of-mothers-day</link>
  3221. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Mansa Musa]]></dc:creator>
  3222. <pubDate>Wed, 08 May 2024 16:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
  3223. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  3224. <category><![CDATA[Prisons and Policing]]></category>
  3225. <category><![CDATA[Rattling the Bars]]></category>
  3226. <category><![CDATA[Prison Industrial Complex]]></category>
  3227. <category><![CDATA[prison reform]]></category>
  3228. <category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
  3229. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313263</guid>
  3230.  
  3231. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="576" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?fit=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Andrea James, founder and executive director of the National Council for Incarcerated and Formerly Incarcerated Women and Girls, addresses the crowd at the FreeHer march in Washington, D.C. on April 18, 2024. Still taken from video by TRNN" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?w=1280&amp;ssl=1 1280w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=300%2C169&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=768%2C432&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=1200%2C675&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=400%2C225&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?fit=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Highlighting the cases of Michelle West and other incarcerated mothers, the FreeHer march called on Biden to use his clemency power to live up to past broken promises to help release incarcerated women.]]></description>
  3232. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="576" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?fit=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Andrea James, founder and executive director of the National Council for Incarcerated and Formerly Incarcerated Women and Girls, addresses the crowd at the FreeHer march in Washington, D.C. on April 18, 2024. Still taken from video by TRNN" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?w=1280&amp;ssl=1 1280w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=300%2C169&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=768%2C432&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=1200%2C675&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?resize=400%2C225&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Copy-of-RTB-TEMPLATE-SET-28.png?fit=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  3233. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  3234. <iframe title="FreeHer! Biden&#039;s broken promises to incarcerated women | Rattling the Bars" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/g_ujmFS4XKI?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  3235. </div></figure>
  3236.  
  3237.  
  3238.  
  3239. <p class="has-drop-cap">On April 24, activists from around the country converged on Washington for the 10th anniversary march of the <a href="https://www.freehercampaign.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">FreeHer campaign</a>, a national movement against the prison industrial complex, focused on the release of incarcerated women and girls. Despite campaign promises to free 100 women in his first 100 days in office, the Biden administration&#8217;s record on clemency is among the worst in US history, granting clemency only 29 times in nearly four years—with 16 of these given on the day of the FreeHer march alone. Activists also called attention to the epidemic of sexual violence and abuse against prisoners by correctional staff. <em>Rattling the Bars</em> reports from the streets in DC, speaking directly with organizers and movement activists about their demands for Biden and their broader vision for liberation.</p>
  3240.  
  3241.  
  3242.  
  3243. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  3244. <p>Videographer: Cameron Granadino<br>Post-Production: Cameron Granadino</p>
  3245. </blockquote>
  3246.  
  3247.  
  3248.  
  3249. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  3250.  
  3251.  
  3252.  
  3253. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  3254.  
  3255.  
  3256.  
  3257. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  3258.  
  3259.  
  3260.  
  3261. <p>Speaker 1:</p>
  3262.  
  3263.  
  3264.  
  3265. <p>We vote clemency! We vote clemency! And we want it when?</p>
  3266.  
  3267.  
  3268.  
  3269. <p>Speaker 2:</p>
  3270.  
  3271.  
  3272.  
  3273. <p>Now.</p>
  3274.  
  3275.  
  3276.  
  3277. <p>Speaker 1:</p>
  3278.  
  3279.  
  3280.  
  3281. <p>We want it now. We want it when?</p>
  3282.  
  3283.  
  3284.  
  3285. <p>Speaker 2:</p>
  3286.  
  3287.  
  3288.  
  3289. <p>Now.</p>
  3290.  
  3291.  
  3292.  
  3293. <p>Speaker 1:</p>
  3294.  
  3295.  
  3296.  
  3297. <p>Send those messages to President Biden and say, don&#8217;t even look at us again until you&#8217;re willing to free these women. And we want everybody to please, when you leave here, take this message with you, hit your governor in the head with it. Hit the President in the head with it, that we vote clemency and we need you to get to work. Tenth anniversary March on Washington. Try to make President Biden understand that freedom must happen.</p>
  3298.  
  3299.  
  3300.  
  3301. <p>Pick up your pen. Commute the sentences of our mothers, our grandmothers, our sisters, our aunts and our wives. Enough is enough. Free Michelle West, 30 plus years in prison. Free Lazar Daz, 30 plus years in prison. Free our elders like Ms. Friend. Get these women out of these prisons. Now! We got rap with us releasing aging people in prison. We got legal services for prisoners with children. We got women, and men, and babies here from every single state around the country, and we are demanding enough is enough. President Biden, pick up that pen.</p>
  3302.  
  3303.  
  3304.  
  3305. <p>Speaker 2:</p>
  3306.  
  3307.  
  3308.  
  3309. <p>We&#8217;re building a family. This is a whole community that has been impacted by incarceration from different ways, whether we&#8217;ve been formerly incarcerated, or we had loved ones like our mothers incarcerated. And so it&#8217;s time that we come together in solidarity, and highlight the harm that the system has caused. And so we can&#8217;t do this alone, so we have to come together. And when we come together, that&#8217;s a movement.</p>
  3310.  
  3311.  
  3312.  
  3313. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3314.  
  3315.  
  3316.  
  3317. <p>One more time, we&#8217;re at Freedom Plaza in Washington D.C. At the Free Her March. I didn&#8217;t know what kind of impact it would have on me. We&#8217;ve got women that&#8217;s coming together to march to abolish the prison industrial complex as it relates to women. We&#8217;ve got families. We&#8217;ve got their children, we&#8217;ve got the grandparents. We&#8217;ve got the great-grandparents, generation upon generation. They want the end to the mass incarceration of women, but more importantly, they want to free her.</p>
  3318.  
  3319.  
  3320.  
  3321. <p>Speaker 4:</p>
  3322.  
  3323.  
  3324.  
  3325. <p>Mississippi, Mississippi, I need you to free her! Indiana, I need you to free her! Georgia, free her! D.C., free her! Alabama, free her!</p>
  3326.  
  3327.  
  3328.  
  3329. <p>Speaker 5:</p>
  3330.  
  3331.  
  3332.  
  3333. <p>We got Milwaukee in the building. Milwaukee in the building.</p>
  3334.  
  3335.  
  3336.  
  3337. <p>Speaker 6:</p>
  3338.  
  3339.  
  3340.  
  3341. <p>Milwaukee, Wisconsin.</p>
  3342.  
  3343.  
  3344.  
  3345. <p>Speaker 5:</p>
  3346.  
  3347.  
  3348.  
  3349. <p>Milwaukee, Wisconsin.</p>
  3350.  
  3351.  
  3352.  
  3353. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3354.  
  3355.  
  3356.  
  3357. <p>Where you from?</p>
  3358.  
  3359.  
  3360.  
  3361. <p>Speaker 7:</p>
  3362.  
  3363.  
  3364.  
  3365. <p>Washington D.C.</p>
  3366.  
  3367.  
  3368.  
  3369. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3370.  
  3371.  
  3372.  
  3373. <p>Okay. We are from Nation Capital. Why are you here?</p>
  3374.  
  3375.  
  3376.  
  3377. <p>Star:</p>
  3378.  
  3379.  
  3380.  
  3381. <p>I&#8217;m here to free Ms. West, Michelle West, and here to support the women that&#8217;s here.</p>
  3382.  
  3383.  
  3384.  
  3385. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3386.  
  3387.  
  3388.  
  3389. <p>Hi, what&#8217;s your name?</p>
  3390.  
  3391.  
  3392.  
  3393. <p>Star:</p>
  3394.  
  3395.  
  3396.  
  3397. <p>My name is Star. How you doing?</p>
  3398.  
  3399.  
  3400.  
  3401. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3402.  
  3403.  
  3404.  
  3405. <p>I&#8217;m good. Where you from?</p>
  3406.  
  3407.  
  3408.  
  3409. <p>Star:</p>
  3410.  
  3411.  
  3412.  
  3413. <p>The Bronx, New York.</p>
  3414.  
  3415.  
  3416.  
  3417. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3418.  
  3419.  
  3420.  
  3421. <p>Okay. We got the Bronx with us today. Why are you here today?</p>
  3422.  
  3423.  
  3424.  
  3425. <p>Star:</p>
  3426.  
  3427.  
  3428.  
  3429. <p>Because we&#8217;re here to petition the President, and everybody else on his team, to grant clemency to Michelle West, and all the other women who deserve it.</p>
  3430.  
  3431.  
  3432.  
  3433. <p>Speaker 8:</p>
  3434.  
  3435.  
  3436.  
  3437. <p>He told us when we was here four years ago that he was going to free a hundred women within the hundred days of him being in office. And he has not done any of what he said he was going to do. So we&#8217;re here today asking for him to free our women, and free them now.</p>
  3438.  
  3439.  
  3440.  
  3441. <p>Star:</p>
  3442.  
  3443.  
  3444.  
  3445. <p>We are tired of giving the Democrats what they want, and they don&#8217;t give us what we need.</p>
  3446.  
  3447.  
  3448.  
  3449. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3450.  
  3451.  
  3452.  
  3453. <p>So what do we want?</p>
  3454.  
  3455.  
  3456.  
  3457. <p>Star:</p>
  3458.  
  3459.  
  3460.  
  3461. <p>We want freedom for all women and girls. We want rehabilitation, and alternatives to incarceration.</p>
  3462.  
  3463.  
  3464.  
  3465. <p>Speaker 9:</p>
  3466.  
  3467.  
  3468.  
  3469. <p>We want Michelle West Free!</p>
  3470.  
  3471.  
  3472.  
  3473. <p>Miquelle West:</p>
  3474.  
  3475.  
  3476.  
  3477. <p>I&#8217;m Miquelle West, Michelle West&#8217;s daughter. My mom was incarcerated when I was ten years old for a drug conspiracy case. And she&#8217;s serving two life sentences and 15 years.</p>
  3478.  
  3479.  
  3480.  
  3481. <p>Speaker 9:</p>
  3482.  
  3483.  
  3484.  
  3485. <p>I represent the women that want to be free. Let our women be free. Let our women out of [inaudible 00:04:06].</p>
  3486.  
  3487.  
  3488.  
  3489. <p>Music:</p>
  3490.  
  3491.  
  3492.  
  3493. <p>Music</p>
  3494.  
  3495.  
  3496.  
  3497. <p>Group:</p>
  3498.  
  3499.  
  3500.  
  3501. <p>Cut it down!</p>
  3502.  
  3503.  
  3504.  
  3505. <p>Speaker 10:</p>
  3506.  
  3507.  
  3508.  
  3509. <p>[inaudible 00:04:36].</p>
  3510.  
  3511.  
  3512.  
  3513. <p>Group:</p>
  3514.  
  3515.  
  3516.  
  3517. <p>Cut it down!</p>
  3518.  
  3519.  
  3520.  
  3521. <p>Speaker 10:</p>
  3522.  
  3523.  
  3524.  
  3525. <p>[inaudible 00:04:39]</p>
  3526.  
  3527.  
  3528.  
  3529. <p>Speaker 11:</p>
  3530.  
  3531.  
  3532.  
  3533. <p>Stop criminalizing us for poverty, stop criminalizing us for how we cope from this trauma that has been put on us historically, and continues into this present day. Free my sisters.</p>
  3534.  
  3535.  
  3536.  
  3537. <p>Speaker 12:</p>
  3538.  
  3539.  
  3540.  
  3541. <p>The women get treated badly. The women get raped in jail. All kinds of things. I served federal time, and I know what it&#8217;s like to be in there. And I say free women today.</p>
  3542.  
  3543.  
  3544.  
  3545. <p>Speaker 13:</p>
  3546.  
  3547.  
  3548.  
  3549. <p>We told them to free those women, and they didn&#8217;t do it. They&#8217;re sending them to other prisons that, guess what? Also are raping our sisters inside of the federal system. So we&#8217;ve got a lot of work to do, people.</p>
  3550.  
  3551.  
  3552.  
  3553. <p>Speaker 14:</p>
  3554.  
  3555.  
  3556.  
  3557. <p>The response is to move all the women at once, all of a sudden to just throw them out into places all over the country with no preparation, no bathroom facilities. They&#8217;re being, as one of them said, the men who raped them, should, and are, going to prison. And the women are being punished now because they&#8217;re saying that the BOP, which can&#8217;t control their own staff, has to close the prison because they can&#8217;t manage it. And they take the women. I&#8217;ve been walking with different friends of mine who were in Dublin with me.</p>
  3558.  
  3559.  
  3560.  
  3561. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3562.  
  3563.  
  3564.  
  3565. <p>Right.</p>
  3566.  
  3567.  
  3568.  
  3569. <p>Speaker 14:</p>
  3570.  
  3571.  
  3572.  
  3573. <p>It was not a low-security place at that point. And we&#8217;re all having flashbacks of what it was to be transferred in that way, where you&#8217;re treated like a sack of laundry, except that you&#8217;re chained up. You&#8217;re chained at the waist. You can&#8217;t use the bathroom for hours, you get no food. They sat on a bus for five hours in the parking lot of the prison. And then at the end of five hours, they were taken back into the prison. They said, &#8220;Oh, we don&#8217;t know where to take you.&#8221; So the way that they&#8217;re being treated and then their families&#8230; Some people have children and their families are in the Bay Area. So the children were able to visit their moms in the prison, and now the moms have been sent like across country.</p>
  3574.  
  3575.  
  3576.  
  3577. <p>Speaker 15:</p>
  3578.  
  3579.  
  3580.  
  3581. <p>All this is the remedy for their abusive behavior. The remedy for their abusive behavior become more abusive.</p>
  3582.  
  3583.  
  3584.  
  3585. <p>Speaker 14:</p>
  3586.  
  3587.  
  3588.  
  3589. <p>Exactly. It&#8217;s true abuse, only this time, it&#8217;s like it&#8217;s standard operating procedures as opposed to rape, which is standard operating procedures, but it&#8217;s not written in the book.</p>
  3590.  
  3591.  
  3592.  
  3593. <p>Speaker 15:</p>
  3594.  
  3595.  
  3596.  
  3597. <p>We have to bring our women home, our children need them. Our black young men lead them. Black men need the nurturing, need the comfort, the caring, and the support that they need for mothers to structure them in the right way, so that we won&#8217;t be enslavery into the system. So thank you for everybody. As you see, we&#8217;re all out here making the cards.</p>
  3598.  
  3599.  
  3600.  
  3601. <p>Speaker 16:</p>
  3602.  
  3603.  
  3604.  
  3605. <p>Turn around.</p>
  3606.  
  3607.  
  3608.  
  3609. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3610.  
  3611.  
  3612.  
  3613. <p>They&#8217;re here on behalf of their mother. Why you bring the two?</p>
  3614.  
  3615.  
  3616.  
  3617. <p>Speaker 16:</p>
  3618.  
  3619.  
  3620.  
  3621. <p>Because that&#8217;s their mother.</p>
  3622.  
  3623.  
  3624.  
  3625. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3626.  
  3627.  
  3628.  
  3629. <p>Okay.</p>
  3630.  
  3631.  
  3632.  
  3633. <p>Speaker 16:</p>
  3634.  
  3635.  
  3636.  
  3637. <p>That needs to be released.</p>
  3638.  
  3639.  
  3640.  
  3641. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3642.  
  3643.  
  3644.  
  3645. <p>Okay. How long has she been locked up?</p>
  3646.  
  3647.  
  3648.  
  3649. <p>Speaker 16:</p>
  3650.  
  3651.  
  3652.  
  3653. <p>She&#8217;s been locked up right now for two years.</p>
  3654.  
  3655.  
  3656.  
  3657. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3658.  
  3659.  
  3660.  
  3661. <p>And why haven&#8217;t they released her yet?</p>
  3662.  
  3663.  
  3664.  
  3665. <p>Speaker 16:</p>
  3666.  
  3667.  
  3668.  
  3669. <p>They haven&#8217;t released her because they say she&#8217;s an activist. She was an activist.</p>
  3670.  
  3671.  
  3672.  
  3673. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3674.  
  3675.  
  3676.  
  3677. <p>What&#8217;s her name?</p>
  3678.  
  3679.  
  3680.  
  3681. <p>Speaker 16:</p>
  3682.  
  3683.  
  3684.  
  3685. <p>Brittany Martin.</p>
  3686.  
  3687.  
  3688.  
  3689. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3690.  
  3691.  
  3692.  
  3693. <p>Brittany Martin. So we got Brittany Martin as an activist and be held-</p>
  3694.  
  3695.  
  3696.  
  3697. <p>Speaker 16:</p>
  3698.  
  3699.  
  3700.  
  3701. <p>In Illinois.</p>
  3702.  
  3703.  
  3704.  
  3705. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3706.  
  3707.  
  3708.  
  3709. <p>In Illinois State Prison?</p>
  3710.  
  3711.  
  3712.  
  3713. <p>Speaker 13:</p>
  3714.  
  3715.  
  3716.  
  3717. <p>Yes. Yes, sir.</p>
  3718.  
  3719.  
  3720.  
  3721. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3722.  
  3723.  
  3724.  
  3725. <p>FCI?</p>
  3726.  
  3727.  
  3728.  
  3729. <p>Speaker 13:</p>
  3730.  
  3731.  
  3732.  
  3733. <p>IDOC.</p>
  3734.  
  3735.  
  3736.  
  3737. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3738.  
  3739.  
  3740.  
  3741. <p>Okay. So what do you want her to know about what&#8217;s going on here today?</p>
  3742.  
  3743.  
  3744.  
  3745. <p>Speaker 13:</p>
  3746.  
  3747.  
  3748.  
  3749. <p>Man, listen, it&#8217;s powerful out here, man. There&#8217;s people from everywhere and every place, and she is known. Her injustice is known.</p>
  3750.  
  3751.  
  3752.  
  3753. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3754.  
  3755.  
  3756.  
  3757. <p>What do you want to happen for your mother?</p>
  3758.  
  3759.  
  3760.  
  3761. <p>Speaker 18:</p>
  3762.  
  3763.  
  3764.  
  3765. <p>Bring her home.</p>
  3766.  
  3767.  
  3768.  
  3769. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3770.  
  3771.  
  3772.  
  3773. <p>Bring her home? Bring your mother home?</p>
  3774.  
  3775.  
  3776.  
  3777. <p>Speaker 18:</p>
  3778.  
  3779.  
  3780.  
  3781. <p>Yeah!</p>
  3782.  
  3783.  
  3784.  
  3785. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3786.  
  3787.  
  3788.  
  3789. <p>What&#8217;s your mother&#8217;s name?</p>
  3790.  
  3791.  
  3792.  
  3793. <p>Speaker 18:</p>
  3794.  
  3795.  
  3796.  
  3797. <p>Pretty mama.</p>
  3798.  
  3799.  
  3800.  
  3801. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3802.  
  3803.  
  3804.  
  3805. <p>Okay. And what y&#8217;all want? What y&#8217;all want?</p>
  3806.  
  3807.  
  3808.  
  3809. <p>Speaker 18:</p>
  3810.  
  3811.  
  3812.  
  3813. <p>Bring her home!</p>
  3814.  
  3815.  
  3816.  
  3817. <p>Speaker 17:</p>
  3818.  
  3819.  
  3820.  
  3821. <p>Bring her home. I talked to a friend of mine that was here, the first one. She said it was only maybe a hundred women. This is the indication that we&#8217;re building and mobilizing. So how do you feel about that?</p>
  3822.  
  3823.  
  3824.  
  3825. <p>Speaker 21:</p>
  3826.  
  3827.  
  3828.  
  3829. <p>I think it&#8217;s great. I think it&#8217;s fantastic. It&#8217;s something that&#8217;s needed. Women who are getting triple life sentences for things that are&#8230; It&#8217;s not reasonable. So I like it.</p>
  3830.  
  3831.  
  3832.  
  3833. <p>Speaker 20:</p>
  3834.  
  3835.  
  3836.  
  3837. <p>I am here because I believe that every woman deserves her peace and her freedom.</p>
  3838.  
  3839.  
  3840.  
  3841. <p>Speaker 21:</p>
  3842.  
  3843.  
  3844.  
  3845. <p>Who are these people up here that you see?</p>
  3846.  
  3847.  
  3848.  
  3849. <p>Speaker 20:</p>
  3850.  
  3851.  
  3852.  
  3853. <p>These are women incarcerated in the Georgia Penal system.</p>
  3854.  
  3855.  
  3856.  
  3857. <p>Speaker 21:</p>
  3858.  
  3859.  
  3860.  
  3861. <p>And how long-</p>
  3862.  
  3863.  
  3864.  
  3865. <p>Speaker 20:</p>
  3866.  
  3867.  
  3868.  
  3869. <p>They are lifers.</p>
  3870.  
  3871.  
  3872.  
  3873. <p>Speaker 21:</p>
  3874.  
  3875.  
  3876.  
  3877. <p>They&#8217;ve been in prison for a long time.</p>
  3878.  
  3879.  
  3880.  
  3881. <p>Speaker 20:</p>
  3882.  
  3883.  
  3884.  
  3885. <p>Yes. They&#8217;ve been in prison for a long time, and constantly denied parole. So we are here speaking on their behalf.</p>
  3886.  
  3887.  
  3888.  
  3889. <p>Speaker 22:</p>
  3890.  
  3891.  
  3892.  
  3893. <p>There&#8217;s a lot of women that I myself was actually incarcerated with. I&#8217;m from Augusta, Georgia, served 12 years out of 20 years of [inaudible 00:09:41] . I was released in 2016. So now I&#8217;m advocating for myself and other women. So let&#8217;s free them, free her.</p>
  3894.  
  3895.  
  3896.  
  3897. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3898.  
  3899.  
  3900.  
  3901. <p>Briefly tell our audience what happened with your daughter.</p>
  3902.  
  3903.  
  3904.  
  3905. <p>Speaker 22:</p>
  3906.  
  3907.  
  3908.  
  3909. <p>In February of 2018, she, along with her husband, was indicted on a federal drug indictment along with several others that was named on that indictment. At the beginning of the&#8230; there was no&#8230; Spock was not mentioned in any of the discoveries or anything, but once they got her to trial, they went ahead with the indictment. Matter of fact, there was three superseding indictments that was made. She ended up being on pretrial release from 2018 to 2021. At which time in July the 26th of 2021, she actually went to trial and was found guilty by a jury. Partly because of the attorney that she had, did not present any of the evidence or anything. Did not put on any type of defense. He just came to court against the federal government with a notepad and a pen.</p>
  3910.  
  3911.  
  3912.  
  3913. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3914.  
  3915.  
  3916.  
  3917. <p>Okay. We already know about&#8230; I was locked up. I did 48 years in prison. So I understand. We know about the public pretender. That&#8217;s what we call him in the prison system. But how much time did your daughter get?</p>
  3918.  
  3919.  
  3920.  
  3921. <p>Speaker 22:</p>
  3922.  
  3923.  
  3924.  
  3925. <p>She got 15 years mandatory. She had a mandatory minimum of 15 years.</p>
  3926.  
  3927.  
  3928.  
  3929. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  3930.  
  3931.  
  3932.  
  3933. <p>Okay. She got a mandatory minimum of 15 years. Was this her first offense?</p>
  3934.  
  3935.  
  3936.  
  3937. <p>Speaker 22:</p>
  3938.  
  3939.  
  3940.  
  3941. <p>First offense, Sparkle Hobbs Bryant is a mother of two children. She&#8217;s never been in trouble. She was an upstanding citizen before the indictment. She&#8217;s been an upstanding system in the jail system as well as in the prison system. And we just want her to come home. This is her daughter who was 14 months old when she left her, and we&#8217;re tired of taking her to the prison to see her mother.</p>
  3942.  
  3943.  
  3944.  
  3945. <p>Speaker 23:</p>
  3946.  
  3947.  
  3948.  
  3949. <p>And not to mention, she&#8217;s also been in the military. She served in the Navy.</p>
  3950.  
  3951.  
  3952.  
  3953. <p>Speaker 24:</p>
  3954.  
  3955.  
  3956.  
  3957. <p>The power of women. They come from all over the country. New York, Nevada, Montana, Kansas to free her. This is the 10th anniversary of women prisoners coming out, organizing to free women prisoners. This is a monumental occasion. This is an example of power to the people. Free her.</p>
  3958.  
  3959.  
  3960.  
  3961. <p>Karen Elsima:</p>
  3962.  
  3963.  
  3964.  
  3965. <p>I&#8217;m Karen Elsima from Alaska. I&#8217;m formerly incarcerated. I left three kids at home who also had to live with my felonies. Today, after 13 years out, I have a daughter who also had to sign a seven-year deal, and now is about to celebrate two years in recovery, about to have a baby. But if someone hadn&#8217;t invested in me, my children, the restoration would not have been there. We&#8217;re still working on it.</p>
  3966.  
  3967.  
  3968.  
  3969. <p>Speaker 24:</p>
  3970.  
  3971.  
  3972.  
  3973. <p>Right.</p>
  3974.  
  3975.  
  3976.  
  3977. <p>Speaker 16:</p>
  3978.  
  3979.  
  3980.  
  3981. <p>But it&#8217;s just such an example of how many moms and kids and families need to have that restoration be invested in as a people.</p>
  3982.  
  3983.  
  3984.  
  3985. <p>Speaker 24:</p>
  3986.  
  3987.  
  3988.  
  3989. <p>And that&#8217;s one of the things that the Free Her movement is talking about. Invest in people, not in the expansion of prisons that&#8217;s going to house people, and dehumanize, and destroy families. Thank you, sis.</p>
  3990.  
  3991.  
  3992.  
  3993. <p>Speaker 25:</p>
  3994.  
  3995.  
  3996.  
  3997. <p>I think people are going to be more educated. We&#8217;re going to continue to come out and rally as needed, and continue to educate others about the movement. But it&#8217;s going to be a fight for a while, but we&#8217;re going to keep at it.</p>
  3998.  
  3999.  
  4000.  
  4001. <p>Speaker 26:</p>
  4002.  
  4003.  
  4004.  
  4005. <p>We demand that President Biden and state governors free our mothers. Free them for Mother&#8217;s Day. Free her!</p>
  4006.  
  4007.  
  4008.  
  4009. <p>Music:</p>
  4010.  
  4011.  
  4012.  
  4013. <p>Alleluia Music</p>
  4014.  
  4015.  
  4016.  
  4017. <p>Speaker 27:</p>
  4018.  
  4019.  
  4020.  
  4021. <p>Oh, that is, you see us out here. We&#8217;re out here. We&#8217;re stronger in numbers. Like Sashi said. We come together in solidarity. We collectively come up with strategies to free each one of them one by one. We&#8217;re trying to tear down the criminal justice system brick by brick, piece by piece. And we know what that looks like, and that&#8217;s why we&#8217;re out here.</p>
  4022.  
  4023.  
  4024.  
  4025. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  4026.  
  4027.  
  4028.  
  4029. <p>And I heard the speaker say collectively, her colleagues, former sisters that was locked up with her, if you did them collectively, they did a thousand years. And I did 48 years before I got out. And I was in the room one time and I asked, had some college students in there. I had like 10 people. I told all the dudes that added up their numbers. So when I told them, I said I launched how many numbers. It was over 500 years in the room of time we had did. So with terms like that, what do you think about the clemency?</p>
  4030.  
  4031.  
  4032.  
  4033. <p>Speaker 27:</p>
  4034.  
  4035.  
  4036.  
  4037. <p>I think that everyone should get a second chance. And I see that society lately is not giving people a chance. I don&#8217;t feel that no one should be locked up for the rest of their life. And who is one person to take somebody&#8217;s freedom away, rather it be a six-man, jury, it be a judge or whomever it be? No one has that right. And we&#8217;re going to free them all. And they are coming home.</p>
  4038.  
  4039.  
  4040.  
  4041. <p>Speaker 28:</p>
  4042.  
  4043.  
  4044.  
  4045. <p>And we also want to highlight re-imagining communities. You know, the only reason why we are here is because women have never had a first chance to begin with, and they&#8217;ve never had resources. Look at this. This is a crowd of black people. Instead of talking about 500, a thousand, a thousand years, 2000 years, these are years that our family has been stripped away from our loved ones. And that&#8217;s not acceptable. So we need to begin to shift and call on not only the President Biden, but all of the governors. Each state, state by state, needs to provide resources to the people so that way we&#8217;re not even ending up on a prison bunk to begin with. Not our babies, not our mothers, not us, not none of us. We have the resources, we just have to use them. So, yes to clemency, but also yes to resources immediately. So we don&#8217;t have to use tools like clemency.</p>
  4046.  
  4047.  
  4048.  
  4049. <p>Speaker 7:</p>
  4050.  
  4051.  
  4052.  
  4053. <p>Yes.</p>
  4054. ]]></content:encoded>
  4058. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313263</post-id> </item>
  4059. <item>
  4060. <title>&#8216;Derail Batory&#8217;: Senate urged to reject ex-Trump official for Amtrak board</title>
  4061. <link>https://therealnews.com/derail-batory-senate-urged-to-reject-ex-trump-official-for-amtrak-board</link>
  4063. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Jake Johnson]]></dc:creator>
  4064. <pubDate>Tue, 07 May 2024 19:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
  4065. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  4066. <category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
  4067. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  4068. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  4069. <category><![CDATA[railroad]]></category>
  4070. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  4071. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313215</guid>
  4072.  
  4073. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Workers service trains in the Amtrak Car Yard south of the Loop on September 13, 2022 in Chicago, Illinois. Photo by Scott Olson/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>"His record clearly demonstrates a prioritization of carrier profits over the safety of rail workers and the traveling public," said Railroad Workers United.]]></description>
  4074. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Workers service trains in the Amtrak Car Yard south of the Loop on September 13, 2022 in Chicago, Illinois. Photo by Scott Olson/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-1423405438-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  4075. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:30% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="600" height="150" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=600%2C150&#038;ssl=1" alt="Common Dreams Logo" class="wp-image-268291 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=300%2C75&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=400&amp;ssl=1 400w" sizes="(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  4076. <p style="font-size:18px"><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/rail-workers-batory-amtrak" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Common Dreams</a> on May 07, 2024. It is shared here with permission under a Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0) license.</em></p>
  4077. </div></div>
  4078.  
  4079.  
  4080.  
  4081. <p class="has-drop-cap">An alliance of unionized rail workers on Tuesday demanded that the U.S. Senate reject President Joe Biden&#8217;s&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/biden-amtrak-board" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">nomination</a>&nbsp;of former Trump administration official Ronald Batory to serve on the board of Amtrak, the nation&#8217;s passenger rail company.</p>
  4082.  
  4083.  
  4084.  
  4085. <p>In a&nbsp;<a href="https://files.constantcontact.com/38adf15f301/a64ced56-0c33-48fd-912a-4f3496c62d77.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">statement</a>, Railroad Workers United (RWU) said Batory&#8217;s tenure as head of the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) under former President Donald Trump &#8220;was marked by policies favoring &#8216;operational efficiencies&#8217; (i.e., corporate profits) over the safety and well-being of rail workers and the public.&#8221;</p>
  4086.  
  4087.  
  4088.  
  4089. <p>&#8220;Notably, under his leadership, FRA attempted to override state laws mandating two-person train crews, promoting instead the adoption of single-person crews nationally,&#8221; said RWU. &#8220;This push was part of a broader deregulation agenda, ostensibly aimed at reducing operational costs for the monopoly of carriers at the potential expense of safety and labor protections.&#8221;</p>
  4090.  
  4091.  
  4092.  
  4093. <p>&#8220;Moreover, during the Covid-19 pandemic, Mr. Batory oversaw the FRA&#8217;s issuance of emergency waivers that suspended numerous long-standing safety regulations,&#8221; the group added. &#8220;These waivers were granted rapidly with limited opportunity for stakeholder input, raising significant concerns among rail labor organizations about their sweeping breadth and the lack of stringent oversight, which could compromise rail safety and worker security.&#8221;</p>
  4094.  
  4095.  
  4096.  
  4097. <p>The statement urges rail workers across the country to contact their senators and demand they block Batory&#8217;s nomination.</p>
  4098.  
  4099.  
  4100.  
  4101. <p>&#8220;His record clearly demonstrates a prioritization of carrier profits over the safety of rail workers and the traveling public,&#8221; said RWU, calling the Senate to &#8220;derail Batory.&#8221;</p>
  4102.  
  4103.  
  4104.  
  4105. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  4106. <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“Railroad Workers United urges all members of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/raillabor?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#raillabor</a> to actively contact their Senators and argue against Mr. Batory&#39;s confirmation. His record clearly demonstrates a prioritization of carrier profits over the safety of rail workers and the traveling public.” <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/DerailBatory?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#DerailBatory</a> <a href="https://t.co/8kVNNsBihD">pic.twitter.com/8kVNNsBihD</a></p>&mdash; Railroad Workers United ✊ (@railroadworkers) <a href="https://twitter.com/railroadworkers/status/1787819601092641186?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 7, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
  4107. </div></figure>
  4108.  
  4109.  
  4110.  
  4111. <p>Rail workers&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/biden-amtrak-board" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reacted with outrage</a>&nbsp;last week after Biden&nbsp;<a href="https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/05/02/president-biden-announces-key-nominees-72/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">announced</a>&nbsp;Batory&#8217;s nomination, given his ties to the railroad industry and policy moves under an administration whose deregulatory spree&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/donald-trump-east-palestine" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">helped lay the groundwork</a>&nbsp;for the toxic crash in&nbsp;<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/east-palestine" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">East Palestine</a>, Ohio last year.</p>
  4112.  
  4113.  
  4114.  
  4115. <p>Amtrak&#8217;s board of directors is required to be both geographically and politically diverse. Greg Regan, president of the Transportation Trades Department of the AFL-CIO, noted in a&nbsp;<a href="https://ttd.org/news-and-media/press-releases-and-statements/ttd-statement-on-ron-batorys-nomination-for-amtrak-board-of-directors/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">statement</a>&nbsp;Monday that while Batory &#8220;would never be our choice, we recognize that federal law requires the board to have three members from the minority party, in this case the Republican Party.&#8221;</p>
  4116.  
  4117.  
  4118.  
  4119. <p>&#8220;Since the law also requires the president to consult with the Senate minority leader when making minority party appointments, the breadcrumb trail for this transparently anti-labor nominee leads directly to Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell&#8217;s doorstep,&#8221; said Regan, contending that the Kentucky Republican &#8220;owns this choice,&#8221; not Biden.</p>
  4120.  
  4121.  
  4122.  
  4123. <p>In its statement Tuesday, RWU acknowledged that &#8220;some may argue that the Biden administration is procedurally obligated to forward this nomination.&#8221;</p>
  4124.  
  4125.  
  4126.  
  4127. <p>But the group said Batory&#8217;s nomination nevertheless &#8220;starkly contradicts the administration&#8217;s stated commitments to worker safety and robust regulatory standards.&#8221;</p>
  4128.  
  4129.  
  4130.  
  4131. <p>&#8220;The nomination of Mr. Batory, whose regulatory philosophy aligns with reducing workforce protections and operational oversight, does not serve the public interest,&#8221; said RWU.</p>
  4132. ]]></content:encoded>
  4136. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313215</post-id> </item>
  4137. <item>
  4138. <title>‘Like a mini Gaza’: IDF raid on Nur Shams causes worst West Bank destruction in decades</title>
  4139. <link>https://therealnews.com/like-a-mini-gaza-idf-raid-on-nur-shams-causes-worst-west-bank-destruction-in-decades</link>
  4141. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Ross Domoney, Antonis Vradis and Waleed Samer]]></dc:creator>
  4142. <pubDate>Tue, 07 May 2024 15:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
  4143. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  4144. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  4145. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  4146. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  4147. <category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
  4148. <category><![CDATA[west bank]]></category>
  4149. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313172</guid>
  4150.  
  4151. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="572" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?fit=1024%2C572&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="An IDF soldier trains his weapon at the camera during a raid on Nur Shams, West Bank, on April 18, 2024." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?w=1440&amp;ssl=1 1440w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=300%2C168&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=1024%2C572&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=768%2C429&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=1200%2C670&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=400%2C223&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?fit=1024%2C572&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The Real News reports from Nur Shams refugee camp in Tulkarm, where the IDF recently killed 14 Palestinians and destroyed a neighborhood, including a local school.]]></description>
  4152. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="572" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?fit=1024%2C572&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="An IDF soldier trains his weapon at the camera during a raid on Nur Shams, West Bank, on April 18, 2024." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?w=1440&amp;ssl=1 1440w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=300%2C168&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=1024%2C572&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=768%2C429&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=1200%2C670&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?resize=400%2C223&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Tulkarm-screenshot.jpg?fit=1024%2C572&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  4153. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  4154. <iframe title="‘Our own mini Gaza’: Inside the most destructive West Bank IDF raid in decades" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HKCA09MuK8g?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  4155. </div></figure>
  4156.  
  4157.  
  4158.  
  4159. <p class="has-drop-cap">While speaking to residents of Nur Shams refugee camp in the West Bank, TRNN reporters found themselves in the middle of the most destructive IDF raid since the Second Intifada. In this raid, Israeli troops killed 14 Palestinians and destroyed a neighborhood, including a local school. This video was co-produced with Shadowgraph Productions.</p>
  4160.  
  4161.  
  4162.  
  4163. <div style="color:#ddd" class="wp-block-genesis-blocks-gb-spacer gb-block-spacer gb-divider-solid gb-divider-size-1"><hr style="height:30px"/></div>
  4164.  
  4165.  
  4166.  
  4167. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-everything-about-this-is-normal"><strong>Everything about this is normal.</strong></h2>
  4168.  
  4169.  
  4170.  
  4171. <p class="has-drop-cap">This film and its matching gallery present both a historic and an ordinary event. Historic, because we inadvertently captured Israel’s largest military operation in the West Bank since the Second Intifada. And ordinary, because Palestinians are faced with operations of this kind, varying in their intensity, almost daily. In this sense, everything captured here is normal. All of it. The raids, the indiscriminate killings, the destruction of property and any infrastructure sustaining life, the collective punishment. This level of violence and pain, incomprehensible in our minds and intransmissible through our screens, is a lethal normality in the West Bank.</p>
  4172.  
  4173.  
  4174.  
  4175. <p>But what you are about to view is normal in another sense: it is this violence that sustains our own privileged Western normalcy. For every smart appliance, workplace perk or fancy bar drink that we enjoy, there is a gun cocked and pointed at a Palestinian by a settler at this western outpost. This is why, through these stories, we wish to pay homage to the humanity, strength, and courage of the Palestinian people that we encountered at the 1948 refugee camps of Tulkarm and Nur Shams in the spring of 2024. As the courageous student protests sweeping Western universities chant: “Palestine is everywhere.” This is true, of course. But Israel is also everywhere: it is a grotesque exemplar of, but not an exception to, the carnage caused by the insatiable western thirst for power and privilege. Freedom, then, to Palestine. And freedom to all of us.</p>
  4176.  
  4177.  
  4178.  
  4179. <p class="has-text-align-right">&nbsp;<em>Antonis Vradis and Ross Domoney</em></p>
  4180.  
  4181.  
  4182.  
  4183. <div class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow"><div data-effect="slide"><div class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_container swiper-container"><ul class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_swiper-wrapper swiper-wrapper"><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313169" data-id="313169" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/1-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">Carrying a TV set through the streets of the camp days before the raid…</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313170" data-id="313170" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">…and witnessing the army shooting another home TV set soon thereafter.</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313171" data-id="313171" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/3-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">Looking out for the army, who are about to arrive at any moment…</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313173" data-id="313173" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/4-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">…and, all of a sudden, they are here.</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313174" data-id="313174" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/5-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">Waleed reunites with his mother after the three-day army raid on the camp.</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313175" data-id="313175" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/6-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">The funeral procession in Nur Shams camp sees homage to the martyrs…</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313176" data-id="313176" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/7-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">As the camp’s residents look on,</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313177" data-id="313177" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/8-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">in pensiveness and pain,</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313178" data-id="313178" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/9-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">and the surviving fighters march on.</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313179" data-id="313179" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/10-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">Daily life nervously returns to the camp,</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313180" data-id="313180" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/11-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">and the kids go back to hiding from another, for now.</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313181" data-id="313181" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/12-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">The Palestinian authority, themselves hiding during the raid, are back.</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313182" data-id="313182" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/13-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">The last word belongs to those coming from the future…</figcaption></figure></li><li class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_slide swiper-slide"><figure><img decoding="async" width="780" height="780" alt="" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_image wp-image-313183" data-id="313183" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=780%2C780&#038;ssl=1" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C300&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=150%2C150&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C768&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1536&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C2048&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=800%2C800&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C400&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=200%2C200&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1568&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C2000&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/14-scaled.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /><figcaption class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_caption gallery-caption">And this haunting smile. An old slogan from the Italian autonomia comes to mind:
  4184. “Fantasy shall destroy power, and laughter will bury it.”</figcaption></figure></li></ul><a class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_button-prev swiper-button-prev swiper-button-white" role="button"></a><a class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_button-next swiper-button-next swiper-button-white" role="button"></a><a aria-label="Pause Slideshow" class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_button-pause" role="button"></a><div class="wp-block-jetpack-slideshow_pagination swiper-pagination swiper-pagination-white"></div></div></div></div>
  4185.  
  4186.  
  4187.  
  4188. <p class="has-text-align-center"></p>
  4189.  
  4190.  
  4191.  
  4192. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  4193.  
  4194.  
  4195.  
  4196. <p>Produced by Ross Domoney, Antonis Vradis, and Waleed Samer<br>Filmed and edited by Ross Domoney (Instagram: <a href="https://www.instagram.com/ross_domoney/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@ross_domoney</a>, Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/rossdomoney" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@rossdomoney</a>)<br>Photos by Antonis Vradis (Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/da_slow" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@da_slow</a>)<br>Shadowgraph (Instagram: <a href="https://www.instagram.com/shadowgraph_media/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@shadowgraph_media</a>, Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/Shadowgraph_m" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">@shadowgraph_m</a>)</p>
  4197.  
  4198.  
  4199.  
  4200. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  4201.  
  4202.  
  4203.  
  4204. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  4205.  
  4206.  
  4207.  
  4208. <p><strong>Ross Domoney:  </strong>This is Ross Domoney and Antonis Vradis reporting for The Real News Network.</p>
  4209.  
  4210.  
  4211.  
  4212. <p><strong>Antonis Vradis:  </strong>We are in the city of Tulkarm in the occupied West Bank of Palestine. We are staying next to the Nur Shams refugee camp, established soon after the 1948 Nakba. Armed resistance movements against occupation are active here.</p>
  4213.  
  4214.  
  4215.  
  4216. <p><strong>Speaker 3:&nbsp; </strong>It was fear that pushed us to join the battalion. Anyone could be killed in their home at any time. Why wouldn&#8217;t they carry a weapon to defend themselves?</p>
  4217.  
  4218.  
  4219.  
  4220. <p><strong>Antonis Vradis:  </strong>Many of these camps&#8217; residents have been unemployed since Oct. 7. The Israeli state collectively punished them by revoking their work permits. Meanwhile, the frequency of army raids has also increased.</p>
  4221.  
  4222.  
  4223.  
  4224. <p><strong>Ross Domoney:&nbsp; </strong>We notice an Israeli bomb drone hovering overhead. We decide that for our safety it&#8217;s best to leave the camp. Moments later, the resistance fighters set off the air raid alarm [raid sirens]. The much anticipated raid on Nur Shams has begun.</p>
  4225.  
  4226.  
  4227.  
  4228. <p>Those who can flee for their lives. This would turn out to be the biggest raid since the Intifada of the early 2000s. The Army brings in Jeeps and bulldozers to destroy key infrastructure and collectively punish the community for daring to resist the occupation.</p>
  4229.  
  4230.  
  4231.  
  4232. <p>Everyone is banned from leaving or entering the camp, with the soldiers pointing their guns at those who attempt to get closer. Ambulances try to defy the army and enter the camp, but are turned away.</p>
  4233.  
  4234.  
  4235.  
  4236. <p><strong>Antonis Vradis:  </strong>The battles rage into the night [explosions and gunshots]. [Singing over PA system in background] Our fixer, Waleed, is apprehensive to reunite with his family, who are trapped inside the camp.</p>
  4237.  
  4238.  
  4239.  
  4240. <p><strong>Waleed&#8217;s Father:&nbsp; </strong>[Phone message] Waleed, my precious son, how are you? Stay alert and be careful, because this army doesn&#8217;t differentiate between anyone.</p>
  4241.  
  4242.  
  4243.  
  4244. <p><strong>Waleed:&nbsp; </strong>Oh, my feeling. I cannot explain my feeling, man. Stress, fear, my family inside the camp. I don&#8217;t have a good connection with them. No electricity, no water, nothing. I&#8217;m very stressed. Maybe Jeeps inside this hotel and take the rest, all the hotel.</p>
  4245.  
  4246.  
  4247.  
  4248. <p><strong>Ross Domoney:&nbsp; </strong>No one knows how many are dead or injured, or when the army plans to retreat. Rumors are flying around that the camp&#8217;s battalion leader has been killed. [PA announcements in background] The mosque calls out the names of the martyrs. The army drives past us.</p>
  4249.  
  4250.  
  4251.  
  4252. <p>Moments later, we hear they have shot dead a 16-year-old boy on a road far away from the camp. Three days later, we finally get word that the army might be leaving. It&#8217;s not clear if they have fully retreated.</p>
  4253.  
  4254.  
  4255.  
  4256. <p><strong>Speaker 5:&nbsp; </strong>Okay, go.</p>
  4257.  
  4258.  
  4259.  
  4260. <p><strong>Ross Domoney:&nbsp; </strong>We jump into Waleed&#8217;s car. He is anxious to get inside the camp.</p>
  4261.  
  4262.  
  4263.  
  4264. <p><strong>Speaker 6:&nbsp; </strong>Turn around!</p>
  4265.  
  4266.  
  4267.  
  4268. <p><strong>Speaker 5:&nbsp; </strong>They are coming back.</p>
  4269.  
  4270.  
  4271.  
  4272. <p><strong>Ross Domoney:&nbsp; </strong>We quickly realized we have been tricked. An army squad is coming back towards us.</p>
  4273.  
  4274.  
  4275.  
  4276. <p><strong>Speaker 5:&nbsp; </strong>Let&#8217;s go inside, in the hotel [inaudible].</p>
  4277.  
  4278.  
  4279.  
  4280. <p><strong>Speaker 6:&nbsp; </strong>Stop! Turn around! The army is right in front of you!</p>
  4281.  
  4282.  
  4283.  
  4284. <p><strong>Antonis Vradis:  </strong>Soon, we try again, and this time we are in luck.</p>
  4285.  
  4286.  
  4287.  
  4288. <p><strong>Waleed:&nbsp; </strong>My camp&#8230; I feel I was out of the camp for one year, man. I didn&#8217;t see my family for two days or maybe three days.</p>
  4289.  
  4290.  
  4291.  
  4292. <p><strong>Speaker 7:&nbsp; </strong>[Inaudible].</p>
  4293.  
  4294.  
  4295.  
  4296. <p><strong>Antonis Vradis:  </strong>The destruction of the camp is overwhelming.</p>
  4297.  
  4298.  
  4299.  
  4300. <p><strong>Speaker 5:&nbsp; </strong>Oh my God.</p>
  4301.  
  4302.  
  4303.  
  4304. <p><strong>Speaker 6:&nbsp; </strong>They totally destroyed the whole of the western neighborhood. As well as this district, and the school one over there. They didn&#8217;t give us a chance, we couldn&#8217;t do anything. I had twenty people in my house. They even shot at our water tank.</p>
  4305.  
  4306.  
  4307.  
  4308. <p>They say they are gone. But there may still be army around. No one knows. No one knows. Everyone is afraid. And I can&#8217;t express my feelings.</p>
  4309.  
  4310.  
  4311.  
  4312. <p><strong>Antonis Vradis:  </strong>Waleed navigates the narrow alleyways looking for signs of the dead. The army has taken the bodies of the fighters.</p>
  4313.  
  4314.  
  4315.  
  4316. <p><strong>Speaker 6:&nbsp; </strong>They surrounded the guys from here. There was a young man inside, the soldiers came from everywhere and ambushed them. They surrounded them from three sides, and from above. The fighters are all in pieces. The army came a second time and shot at them, even though they were already dead.</p>
  4317.  
  4318.  
  4319.  
  4320. <p><strong>Ross Domoney:&nbsp; </strong>It&#8217;s the day after the raid. The army has left the bodies of those killed at the local hospital. The Nur Shams community awaits solemnly for them to be returned to the camp.</p>
  4321.  
  4322.  
  4323.  
  4324. <p>[Crowd chanting and guns firing]</p>
  4325.  
  4326.  
  4327.  
  4328. <p>Grief and rage take hold of the narrow alleyways. The surviving fighters resurface after the battle.</p>
  4329.  
  4330.  
  4331.  
  4332. <p>11 fighters and three civilians are dead. The sadness for all these lives lost is mixed with apprehensive celebration as a prisoner is released and the battalion leader is found out to be alive after all. Even though the army collectively punished the camp&#8217;s residents and took so many fighters&#8217; lives, it is clear that many more will replace them. The West Bank&#8217;s seething war will rage on.</p>
  4333. ]]></content:encoded>
  4337. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313172</post-id> </item>
  4338. <item>
  4339. <title>&#8216;This is a crime against humanity&#8217;: 600,000 children in line of fire as IDF moves on Rafah</title>
  4340. <link>https://therealnews.com/this-is-a-crime-against-humanity-600000-children-in-line-of-fire-as-idf-moves-on-rafah</link>
  4342. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Jake Johnson]]></dc:creator>
  4343. <pubDate>Mon, 06 May 2024 19:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
  4344. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  4345. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  4346. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  4347. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  4348. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  4349. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  4350. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  4351. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  4352. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313139</guid>
  4353.  
  4354. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Displaced Palestinians who left with their belongings from Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip following an evacuation order by the Israeli army, arrive to Khan Yunis on May 6, 2024. Photo by -/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1366&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1334&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>"We had already run out of words to describe how catastrophic the situation is in Rafah—but this next chapter will take it to indescribable new levels," said Save the Children International's CEO.]]></description>
  4355. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Displaced Palestinians who left with their belongings from Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip following an evacuation order by the Israeli army, arrive to Khan Yunis on May 6, 2024. Photo by -/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1366&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1334&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2151162171-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  4356. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:30% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="600" height="150" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=600%2C150&#038;ssl=1" alt="Common Dreams Logo" class="wp-image-268291 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=600&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?resize=300%2C75&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/cd_stacked_white_600.png?w=400&amp;ssl=1 400w" sizes="(max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  4357. <p style="font-size:18px"><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/news/rafah-children-idf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Common Dreams</a> on May 06, 2024. It is shared here with permission under a Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0) license.</em></p>
  4358. </div></div>
  4359.  
  4360.  
  4361.  
  4362. <p class="has-drop-cap">Humanitarian organizations and United Nations officials are warning that the lives of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children—<a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/gaza" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">nearly all of whom</a> are sick, injured, or malnourished—are in grave danger as Israeli forces on Monday moved to forcibly evacuate the overcrowded <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/gaza">Gaza</a> city of Rafah ahead of an expected ground invasion.</p>
  4363.  
  4364.  
  4365.  
  4366. <p>An estimated 600,000 children are believed to be sheltering in Rafah in <a href="https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/q-a-rafah-health-care-1.7193380" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">terrible conditions</a> and under the near-constant threat of Israeli airstrikes, which rocked the city and <a href="https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/26-killed-as-israeli-warplanes-strike-several-houses-in-rafah/3211265" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">killed dozens</a> of people—including at least eight kids—hours before the <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/israel">Israel</a> Defense Forces (IDF) issued its <a href="https://www.commondreams.org/tag/israel" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">evacuation directives</a>.</p>
  4367.  
  4368.  
  4369.  
  4370. <p>&#8220;They&#8217;re being told to move, quote unquote, to a &#8216;humanitarian zone.&#8217; That&#8217;s a unilaterally declared humanitarian zone,&#8221; James Elder, a spokesperson for the United Nations Children&#8217;s Fund (UNICEF), said in a&nbsp;<em>BBC</em>&nbsp;appearance Monday. &#8220;That&#8217;s not a humanitarian zone where humanitarians have been able to provide the services they need to. I&#8217;ve been talking to colleagues and friends in Rafah this morning, and they&#8217;re terrified.&#8221;</p>
  4371.  
  4372.  
  4373.  
  4374. <p>&#8220;Nowhere is safe,&#8221; said Elder. &#8220;But as unbearable as this is, it&#8217;s happening and it&#8217;s going to be horrific.&#8221;</p>
  4375.  
  4376.  
  4377.  
  4378. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-twitter wp-block-embed-twitter"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  4379. <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-width="550" data-dnt="true"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;Its going to be horrific&quot;  <br><br>James Elder from UNICEF on Israel ordering people in Rafah to move.  <br><br>When will our journalists start calling this what it is? <a href="https://t.co/hYMQWyQss2">pic.twitter.com/hYMQWyQss2</a></p>&mdash; Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) <a href="https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1787416362647757109?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 6, 2024</a></blockquote><script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
  4380. </div></figure>
  4381.  
  4382.  
  4383.  
  4384. <p>Threatening &#8220;extreme force&#8221; in the area, the Israeli military on Monday&nbsp;<a href="https://twitter.com/AvichayAdraee/status/1787344298943365560" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">ordered</a>&nbsp;roughly 100,000 people in the eastern part of Rafah to move west to Al-Mawasi, a town on Gaza&#8217;s southern coast. Humanitarian groups said Al-Mawasi doesn&#8217;t have&nbsp;<a href="https://www.nrc.no/news/2024/may/rafah-an-israeli-military-offensive-will-lead-to-mass-atrocities/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">anywhere near</a>&nbsp;sufficient infrastructure to house displaced people from Rafah and stressed that nowhere in Gaza is safe as long as Israel continues its bombing campaign.</p>
  4385.  
  4386.  
  4387.  
  4388. <p>Inger Ashing, CEO of Save the Children International,&nbsp;<a href="https://www.savethechildren.net/news/save-children-warns-deadly-consequences-children-following-new-relocation-orders-families-rafah" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a>&nbsp;in response to the IDF&#8217;s directives that &#8220;for weeks we have been warning there is no feasible evacuation plan to lawfully displace and protect civilians.&#8221;</p>
  4389.  
  4390.  
  4391.  
  4392. <p>&#8220;For weeks, we have been warning of the devastating consequences this will have for children and our ability to assist them in an already straight-jacketed response. For weeks, we have been calling for preventive action,&#8221; Ashing continued. &#8220;Instead, the international community has looked away. They cannot look away now.&#8221;</p>
  4393.  
  4394.  
  4395.  
  4396. <p>&#8220;The announced incursion will not only risk the lives of over 600,000 children but will at best disrupt and at worst cause the collapse of the humanitarian aid response currently struggling to keep Gaza’s population alive,&#8221; she added. &#8220;Forcibly displacing people from Rafah while further disrupting the aid response will likely seal the fate of many children. We had already run out of words to describe how catastrophic the situation is in Rafah—but this next chapter will take it to indescribable new levels.&#8221;</p>
  4397.  
  4398.  
  4399.  
  4400. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  4401. <p>&#8220;History will judge all of those who are complicit in what is being done to Palestinians in Gaza. It must end now.&#8221;</p>
  4402. </blockquote>
  4403.  
  4404.  
  4405.  
  4406. <p>Roughly 1.4 million people, many of them already displaced multiple times since October, are currently sheltering in Rafah, which Israel&#8217;s military has been threatening to invade for months amid faltering cease-fire talks with Hamas.</p>
  4407.  
  4408.  
  4409.  
  4410. <p><em>Reuters </em><a href="https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/rafah-live-gazans-start-leaving-parts-southern-city-israel-warns-operation-2024-05-06/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reported</a> that in the wake of the IDF&#8217;s evacuation order, &#8220;some loaded children and possessions onto donkey carts, some packed into cars, others simply walked&#8221; in the hopes of escaping Israel&#8217;s ground assault.</p>
  4411.  
  4412.  
  4413.  
  4414. <p>&#8220;People have nowhere to go, no area is safe. All that remains in Gaza is death,&#8221; Mohammed Al-Najjar, a 23-year-old man with family in Rafah, told the news agency. &#8220;I wish I could erase these last seven months from my memory. So many of our dreams and hopes have faded.&#8221;</p>
  4415.  
  4416.  
  4417.  
  4418. <p><a href="https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/there-nowhere-safe-go-600000-children-rafah-warns-unicef" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">According to</a>&nbsp;UNICEF, around 65,000 children in Rafah have a preexisting disability—including seeing, hearing, and walking difficulties—and nearly 80,000 are infants. Roughly 8,000 children under the age of two in Rafah are acutely malnourished.</p>
  4419.  
  4420.  
  4421.  
  4422. <p>&#8220;The &#8216;evacuation&#8217; of Rafah is illegal,&#8221;&nbsp;<a href="https://twitter.com/Heidi__Matthews/status/1787447803028947128" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a>&nbsp;Heidi Matthews, an assistant professor of law at the Osgoode Hall Law School of York University. &#8220;There are no &#8216;humanitarian&#8217; or &#8216;safe zones.&#8217; Civilians are being forcibly displaced to areas totally unsuitable to human habitation. This is a crime against humanity.&#8221;</p>
  4423.  
  4424.  
  4425.  
  4426. <p>The Biden administration, which has supported Israel&#8217;s war on Gaza from the start, has expressed opposition to a Rafah ground invasion absent a credible plan to keep civilians out of harm&#8217;s way. On Monday, a spokesperson for the White House National Security Council said that &#8220;we continue to believe that a hostage deal is the best way to preserve the lives of the hostages, and avoid an invasion of Rafah, where more than a million people are sheltering.&#8221;</p>
  4427.  
  4428.  
  4429.  
  4430. <p>The spokesperson said U.S. President Joe Biden plans to speak with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at some unspecified point on Monday.</p>
  4431.  
  4432.  
  4433.  
  4434. <p>Mike Merryman-Lotze, just peace global policy director at the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC), said in a statement Monday that &#8220;the Biden administration has spoken against the invasion of Rafah but continues to send billions of dollars in weapons to Israel for its genocidal campaign.&#8221;</p>
  4435.  
  4436.  
  4437.  
  4438. <p>&#8220;Any invasion will only bring countless more deaths and exacerbate the risk of famine that is already high because Israel continues to block most humanitarian aid from entering Gaza. President Biden and all elected officials must act now to stop this invasion, demand a permanent and complete cease-fire, and end all arms transfers to Israel.&#8221;</p>
  4439.  
  4440.  
  4441.  
  4442. <p><em>CNN</em> <a href="https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/05/politics/war-israel-palestine-gaza-biden-weapons/index.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reported</a> Sunday that the Biden administration decided to pause a shipment of U.S.-made ammunition to Israel, but an unnamed official told the outlet that the hold was &#8220;not connected to a potential Israeli operation in Rafah and doesn&#8217;t affect other shipments moving forward.&#8221;</p>
  4443.  
  4444.  
  4445.  
  4446. <p>Medical Aid for Palestinians, an advocacy group based in the United Kingdom,&nbsp;<a href="https://www.map.org.uk/news/archive/post/1583-map-demands-urgent-action-to-halt-rafah-offensive-and-avert-further-humanitarian-catastrophe" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">said</a>&nbsp;Monday that &#8220;the international community knows that this invasion will be a catastrophe.&#8221;</p>
  4447.  
  4448.  
  4449.  
  4450. <p>&#8220;The killing of civilians will accelerate and much more of Gaza&#8217;s remaining infrastructure will be destroyed,&#8221; the group said. &#8220;History will judge all of those who are complicit in what is being done to Palestinians in Gaza. It must end now.&#8221;</p>
  4451. ]]></content:encoded>
  4455. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313139</post-id> </item>
  4456. <item>
  4457. <title>&#8216;Help us to get better&#8217;: Maryland is failing women released from prison</title>
  4458. <link>https://therealnews.com/help-us-to-get-better-maryland-is-failing-women-released-from-prison</link>
  4460. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Mansa Musa]]></dc:creator>
  4461. <pubDate>Mon, 06 May 2024 16:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
  4462. <category><![CDATA[Prisons and Policing]]></category>
  4463. <category><![CDATA[Rattling the Bars]]></category>
  4464. <category><![CDATA[Prison Industrial Complex]]></category>
  4465. <category><![CDATA[prison reform]]></category>
  4466. <category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
  4467. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313132</guid>
  4468.  
  4469. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="708" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?fit=1024%2C708&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Screenshot courtesy of TRNN" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?w=1330&amp;ssl=1 1330w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=300%2C208&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=1024%2C708&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=768%2C531&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=1200%2C830&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=400%2C277&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?fit=1024%2C708&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Instead of support and resources, formerly incarcerated women face surveillance, fees, and stigma.]]></description>
  4470. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="708" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?fit=1024%2C708&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Screenshot courtesy of TRNN" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?w=1330&amp;ssl=1 1330w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=300%2C208&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=1024%2C708&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=768%2C531&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=1200%2C830&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?resize=400%2C277&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screen-Shot-2024-05-06-at-10.24.20-AM.jpeg?fit=1024%2C708&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  4471. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  4472. <iframe title="&#039;Help us to get better&#039;: Life after prison | Rattling the Bars" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VSzCYQ1pWiY?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  4473. </div></figure>
  4474.  
  4475.  
  4476.  
  4477. <p class="has-drop-cap">Critics of the prison industrial complex have long noted the system&#8217;s failure to properly rehabilitate those who are locked away in its bowels. Christina Merryman and Ameena Deramous return to&nbsp;<em>Rattling the Bars</em>&nbsp;for the second part of a&nbsp;<a href="https://therealnews.com/the-womens-cut-marylands-only-womens-prison" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">two-part interview</a>&nbsp;on the reality facing prisoners in Maryland&#8217;s only women&#8217;s correctional facility.</p>
  4478.  
  4479.  
  4480.  
  4481. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  4482. <p>Studio Production: David Hebden<br>Post-Production: Cameron Granadino</p>
  4483. </blockquote>
  4484.  
  4485.  
  4486.  
  4487. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  4488.  
  4489.  
  4490.  
  4491. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  4492.  
  4493.  
  4494.  
  4495. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  4496.  
  4497.  
  4498.  
  4499. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4500.  
  4501.  
  4502.  
  4503. <p>Welcome to Rattling Bars here on The Real News Network. I&#8217;m your host, Mansa Musa. Last week, we published part one of our deep dive into the conditions for incarcerated women in the State of Maryland. I spoke with my guests, Christina Merryman and Ameena Deramous, both formerly incarcerated, about life on the inside for incarcerated women in the state.</p>
  4504.  
  4505.  
  4506.  
  4507. <p>Today, we&#8217;re going to look at part two of that conversation. I spoke with Christina and Ameena about what it is like for women who are returning home or trying to return home from prison. Here&#8217;s part two of that conversation.</p>
  4508.  
  4509.  
  4510.  
  4511. <p>Welcome back to Rattling the Bars, Christina and Ameena. We was talking about how do we maintain our sanity in the face of the most arduous conditions in prison? And y&#8217;all made the observation that in terms of how women&#8217;s [inaudible 00:01:11] being ran, it&#8217;s almost like it&#8217;s a whole nother colony. It&#8217;s outside of Maryland. It&#8217;s somewhere else in the Third World country, for lack of better description.</p>
  4512.  
  4513.  
  4514.  
  4515. <p>But what I want to talk about now is, okay, we recognize that in order to maintain our sanity under those types of conditions, we have to find a purpose. We have to find something to live for, and whatever that is, we have to find it, and we had to make a commitment to that. I was telling y&#8217;all I was litigious when I was in the Maryland prison system, and I got so bad with them that I shut down one time, me and another guy shut down the whole&#8230; We was up in Hagerstown, which is where they had a correctional facility. And we had found so many inmate grievances complaints that we shut down the whole 8:00 to 4:00 shift and the 4:00 to 12:00 shift because so many witnesses was coming in from them two shifts from doing abusive things towards prisoners. Needless to say that that didn&#8217;t sit well with the administration, and ultimately I found myself back in max eventually because of that.</p>
  4516.  
  4517.  
  4518.  
  4519. <p>But in terms of that whole experience, it was hard for me to stay focused because I knew&#8230; I said, &#8220;Well, any day they&#8217;re going to come and get me, take me in the hole and beat me,&#8221; because that&#8217;s how litigious I was, and I knew they were abusive.</p>
  4520.  
  4521.  
  4522.  
  4523. <p>But when y&#8217;all were describing some of the things that going on in the women&#8217;s cut and how the officers are, how did it impact? And y&#8217;all talk about how it impacted y&#8217;all and how y&#8217;all was able to, like you say Kristen, you was a social butterfly, so that was your way of maintaining your sanity to maintain your social skills. And I mean, you was saying in your situation, your thing was to be litigious, that if okay, you ain&#8217;t like it, you try to find a way to resolve it through the legal means. Well, not everybody like that. Talk about the impact that this has on the women in general, some of the problems that you see going on in that environment as a result of the way the women&#8217;s cut is being ran. We go with you first, Christina.</p>
  4524.  
  4525.  
  4526.  
  4527. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4528.  
  4529.  
  4530.  
  4531. <p>So the problem starts with the administration. There is none.</p>
  4532.  
  4533.  
  4534.  
  4535. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4536.  
  4537.  
  4538.  
  4539. <p>At Chippendale [inaudible 00:03:45]?</p>
  4540.  
  4541.  
  4542.  
  4543. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4544.  
  4545.  
  4546.  
  4547. <p>Chippendale, I don&#8217;t believe is there anymore. I don&#8217;t even know who the warden is. When I left, I couldn&#8217;t tell you who the warden was. They went through four of them within a two-month time period, I believe.</p>
  4548.  
  4549.  
  4550.  
  4551. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4552.  
  4553.  
  4554.  
  4555. <p>Yes.</p>
  4556.  
  4557.  
  4558.  
  4559. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4560.  
  4561.  
  4562.  
  4563. <p>There was no administration at one point. You couldn&#8217;t get anything done. I was a peer specialist. So, when I say I was a social butterfly, I helped and spoke with a lot of other sisters within the facility and mentored a bunch of people with education and issues that they were having. And no matter what we tried to accomplish, we hit a wall because we couldn&#8217;t go anywhere with it because there was nowhere to go because there&#8217;s no administration. There&#8217;s no one to help, and it&#8217;s impossible.</p>
  4564.  
  4565.  
  4566.  
  4567. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4568.  
  4569.  
  4570.  
  4571. <p>Talk about that a minute. Talk about why is it that in this environment that we had this type of abuse that&#8217;s going on in the State of Maryland, and it seems like nobody&#8217;s talking about because&#8230; I know about because I&#8217;ve been in that space, but you don&#8217;t hear the drumbeat of women being abused, women being psychologically traumatized, women being forced into such a insane state that they substance abuse is high, mental illness is high. Talk about these things.</p>
  4572.  
  4573.  
  4574.  
  4575. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4576.  
  4577.  
  4578.  
  4579. <p>So what I would like for you to think about is the system. We think that the system is not working, but it&#8217;s working exactly that way they would like for it to work.</p>
  4580.  
  4581.  
  4582.  
  4583. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4584.  
  4585.  
  4586.  
  4587. <p>Come on. Come on.</p>
  4588.  
  4589.  
  4590.  
  4591. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4592.  
  4593.  
  4594.  
  4595. <p>It&#8217;s supposed to be for rehabilitation, but there is none, right? You have to want that in yourself. Right? I&#8217;m grateful that I went in there from the service as an adult because those children or those ladies who have issues bigger than mine, more than mine, just like mine, who aren&#8217;t as strong, who don&#8217;t have as big of a support, they&#8217;re hurting.</p>
  4596.  
  4597.  
  4598.  
  4599. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4600.  
  4601.  
  4602.  
  4603. <p>Mm-hmm. No chance.</p>
  4604.  
  4605.  
  4606.  
  4607. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4608.  
  4609.  
  4610.  
  4611. <p>As if we&#8217;re not coming back out here on the streets.</p>
  4612.  
  4613.  
  4614.  
  4615. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4616.  
  4617.  
  4618.  
  4619. <p>Come on.</p>
  4620.  
  4621.  
  4622.  
  4623. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4624.  
  4625.  
  4626.  
  4627. <p>They&#8217;re treating us as if we&#8217;re not returning. At some point, everybody&#8217;s going to realize who&#8217;s in charge. We&#8217;re coming back out here.</p>
  4628.  
  4629.  
  4630.  
  4631. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4632.  
  4633.  
  4634.  
  4635. <p>That&#8217;s right.</p>
  4636.  
  4637.  
  4638.  
  4639. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4640.  
  4641.  
  4642.  
  4643. <p>And we&#8217;re either going to be better or we&#8217;re going to be worse. And if we&#8217;re sitting down and that&#8217;s your opportunity to help us get better, help us to get better. Give us the classes. Give us the counseling. Give us what we need. Right? It&#8217;s not a&#8230; I&#8217;m saying it&#8217;s not a&#8230; It is a moneymaker.</p>
  4644.  
  4645.  
  4646.  
  4647. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4648.  
  4649.  
  4650.  
  4651. <p>That&#8217;s right.</p>
  4652.  
  4653.  
  4654.  
  4655. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4656.  
  4657.  
  4658.  
  4659. <p>Right? If those women are in there getting high and none of us leave, how&#8217;s it coming in? It&#8217;s a moneymaker, right?</p>
  4660.  
  4661.  
  4662.  
  4663. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4664.  
  4665.  
  4666.  
  4667. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  4668.  
  4669.  
  4670.  
  4671. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4672.  
  4673.  
  4674.  
  4675. <p>So, then you have someone who has an addiction. We don&#8217;t have any programs other than AA and NA. And I&#8217;m not saying that those are not good programs.</p>
  4676.  
  4677.  
  4678.  
  4679. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4680.  
  4681.  
  4682.  
  4683. <p>No, I got you.</p>
  4684.  
  4685.  
  4686.  
  4687. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4688.  
  4689.  
  4690.  
  4691. <p>I&#8217;m saying we don&#8217;t have a program for people who have those issues. We have people that are bringing those things in. And then, when the ladies leave and they die because they&#8217;ve tried something real because they have that anti, their body is filled with Suboxone.</p>
  4692.  
  4693.  
  4694.  
  4695. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4696.  
  4697.  
  4698.  
  4699. <p>Right. Right.</p>
  4700.  
  4701.  
  4702.  
  4703. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4704.  
  4705.  
  4706.  
  4707. <p>And then, when you get out there and you get a really good something, what&#8217;s going to happen? There are several women who don&#8217;t have their GEDs, but if the list is long but the classes are empty, that doesn&#8217;t make any sense. If you have to be pre-released to take a class, then you&#8217;re not helping everyone. They&#8217;re not giving us the help. And that&#8217;s intentional.</p>
  4708.  
  4709.  
  4710.  
  4711. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4712.  
  4713.  
  4714.  
  4715. <p>Yeah.</p>
  4716.  
  4717.  
  4718.  
  4719. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4720.  
  4721.  
  4722.  
  4723. <p>That&#8217;s not by mistake. That&#8217;s intentional. Everything that&#8217;s done is intentional.</p>
  4724.  
  4725.  
  4726.  
  4727. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4728.  
  4729.  
  4730.  
  4731. <p>And I want to beat that point right there because as you said, and I want our audience to understand this here. We&#8217;re talking about, and it is important to everybody that listen to this and look at this podcast, it&#8217;s important to understand this here. In the Maryland system, correction system, the Department of Public Safety and Correctional Service, you have what we talked about earlier, Code of Maryland regulations. And in the Code of Maryland regulations, it outlines the policies and procedures for how the institutions in the State of Maryland is going to be ran. Now, how the men&#8217;s institutions going to be ran versus how the women&#8217;s institutions. It&#8217;s uniformity associated with the policies and procedures on paper, in theory. It fluctuates, as well, in men&#8217;s prison. Only difference is you have different institutions, but it fluctuates, as well. They ignore rules and regulations.</p>
  4732.  
  4733.  
  4734.  
  4735. <p>But in this case, I want the audience to understand that as these women sit here, we have two women sitting here. Both of them was in the Maryland House of Corrections. One, both of them at some point in time because of their time supposed to been eligible for a security reduction. Both of them, according to their sentence, supposed to been able to get from medium, if they was medium security when they went in, they&#8217;ll go from medium security to minimum security to pre-release prior to being released. And the purpose of that is that to help them acclimate themselves back into society. If I&#8217;m in pre-release, and I&#8217;m working on the street, and I can save some money, I can get my social skills back up. I can deprogram myself. But in y&#8217;all cases, and I think you&#8217;ve spoken to this, Christina, and talk about this. You said that you was on work release and that not only was you not allowed with your family, but you had to pay rent.</p>
  4736.  
  4737.  
  4738.  
  4739. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4740.  
  4741.  
  4742.  
  4743. <p>Yes.</p>
  4744.  
  4745.  
  4746.  
  4747. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4748.  
  4749.  
  4750.  
  4751. <p>Talk about that.</p>
  4752.  
  4753.  
  4754.  
  4755. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4756.  
  4757.  
  4758.  
  4759. <p>When I&#8217;m on work release, the only contact with any people that I had was the people that I worked with, which was still associated with&#8230; I worked for Maryland Correctional Enterprises, and during Maryland Correctional Enterprises during work, which was also, it was a great opportunity, but the officers would come and do their checks to make sure I was at work. They would come and search my desk, pat me down during work hours, which is very degrading, but I would have to pay room and board and transportation fees. I believe it was approximately&#8230; It was like 690 to $720 a month depending on how many trips they took me back and forth to work. I had no special privileges.</p>
  4760.  
  4761.  
  4762.  
  4763. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4764.  
  4765.  
  4766.  
  4767. <p>And let&#8217;s start right there. How much money you say? 600? Now, you can go from here to New Orleans on a round-trip ticket for that much money and probably do to Mardi Gras at the same time.</p>
  4768.  
  4769.  
  4770.  
  4771. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4772.  
  4773.  
  4774.  
  4775. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  4776.  
  4777.  
  4778.  
  4779. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4780.  
  4781.  
  4782.  
  4783. <p>How far was you going?</p>
  4784.  
  4785.  
  4786.  
  4787. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4788.  
  4789.  
  4790.  
  4791. <p>Three miles to and from.</p>
  4792.  
  4793.  
  4794.  
  4795. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4796.  
  4797.  
  4798.  
  4799. <p>Six miles. 600 something. And that-</p>
  4800.  
  4801.  
  4802.  
  4803. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4804.  
  4805.  
  4806.  
  4807. <p>That was also for my housing. I had to pay to live at the institution. No special room. Not guaranteed to have a room by myself. Yes.</p>
  4808.  
  4809.  
  4810.  
  4811. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4812.  
  4813.  
  4814.  
  4815. <p>And we recognize this. I did an interview with some people from down in Alabama, and they doing outsourcing. They doing convict leasing. But the reality is, in that system, it&#8217;s so barbaric that I would prefer to go work in some inhumane conditions than be put in a section of the jail where it&#8217;s fight or flight. So, you understand what I&#8217;m saying? This is the alternative in your situation. The preference is you prefer to be able to get treated like everybody else, but under the circumstances you would take&#8230; And this is an example of the lesser of the [inaudible 00:12:42]. I mean talk about, you just got out.</p>
  4816.  
  4817.  
  4818.  
  4819. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  4820.  
  4821.  
  4822.  
  4823. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  4824.  
  4825.  
  4826.  
  4827. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4828.  
  4829.  
  4830.  
  4831. <p>And talk about the fact that they didn&#8217;t give you the opportunity to prepare yourself and God willing, that you have been able to make the adjustment. But how would that have looked if they would&#8217;ve gave you the opportunity to get work release, make you some money, have access to your family, hug your mother, kiss your children? How would that, because remember, this ain&#8217;t something I&#8217;m making up. These are the things that men get.</p>
  4832.  
  4833.  
  4834.  
  4835. <p>Everything I just outlined, men get under the same policies and procedures. That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m so outraged at this. I&#8217;m so outraged at it because I&#8217;m sitting here looking at you and both of y&#8217;all and you have family. And why your children don&#8217;t deserve to be hugged and kissed? Why your children don&#8217;t deserve to give you the right to be able to have a weekend with your family when the rules and regulations say this, and the State of Maryland is ignoring it when it comes to y&#8217;all? Talk about that.</p>
  4836.  
  4837.  
  4838.  
  4839. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4840.  
  4841.  
  4842.  
  4843. <p>Intentional. Did I say that already?</p>
  4844.  
  4845.  
  4846.  
  4847. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4848.  
  4849.  
  4850.  
  4851. <p>Yeah. You can say that a hundred times.</p>
  4852.  
  4853.  
  4854.  
  4855. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4856.  
  4857.  
  4858.  
  4859. <p>Intentional. If they don&#8217;t want you to do something, you&#8217;re not going to be able to do it. If they don&#8217;t want you to do it, they&#8217;re not following the rules and regulations. Everybody does what they want to do. There is no oversight and&#8230; I&#8217;m sorry. If the administration acknowledges all of the things that are going on within the institution, then that falls on the admin, right?</p>
  4860.  
  4861.  
  4862.  
  4863. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4864.  
  4865.  
  4866.  
  4867. <p>Mm-hmm. That&#8217;s right.</p>
  4868.  
  4869.  
  4870.  
  4871. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4872.  
  4873.  
  4874.  
  4875. <p>So, then why would they admit to the staff members bringing in drugs? Why would they admit to the physical abuse of stuff of law, the young ladies who are transgendering, right? We have male officers that will beat those incarcerated individuals because, &#8220;You think you&#8217;re a man? You want to be a man? All right, I got something for you.&#8221;</p>
  4876.  
  4877.  
  4878.  
  4879. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4880.  
  4881.  
  4882.  
  4883. <p>Yeah, that&#8217;s [inaudible 00:15:13].</p>
  4884.  
  4885.  
  4886.  
  4887. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4888.  
  4889.  
  4890.  
  4891. <p>Women get raped, too.</p>
  4892.  
  4893.  
  4894.  
  4895. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4896.  
  4897.  
  4898.  
  4899. <p>Yeah. Yeah.</p>
  4900.  
  4901.  
  4902.  
  4903. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4904.  
  4905.  
  4906.  
  4907. <p>But if you check or if you ask, how many of those have been reported that have gotten outside of the institution, right? It&#8217;s intentional. They don&#8217;t want us to be that ready. And I am being honest when I tell you that I wasn&#8217;t prepared. I wasn&#8217;t prepared because I didn&#8217;t qualify for any of the classes. I wasn&#8217;t prepared because the classes that I could have gotten into, depending on which staff member was the person to put you in those classes, I didn&#8217;t get into those classes.</p>
  4908.  
  4909.  
  4910.  
  4911. <p>Some of the staff members didn&#8217;t like me to the point where I didn&#8217;t get my ID when I left. There are certain things that you&#8217;re supposed to leave the institution with. You&#8217;re supposed to leave the institution with your R card.</p>
  4912.  
  4913.  
  4914.  
  4915. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4916.  
  4917.  
  4918.  
  4919. <p>Yeah. Yeah.</p>
  4920.  
  4921.  
  4922.  
  4923. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4924.  
  4925.  
  4926.  
  4927. <p>I went to go get my state ID. I&#8217;ve been covered my entire incarceration, even on my housing unit, I&#8217;m covered. I was told, take your [inaudible 00:16:16] off. You got to take that thing off is what I was told. And because I refused to do that and said I was going to talk to the warden, they told me, &#8220;Oh, it&#8217;s really like a two or three week process. You&#8217;re probably not going to be here, so just get yours on the outside.&#8221; &#8220;Okay, no problem.&#8221; When I left, I went to the MVA to get my state ID and they didn&#8217;t give me my R card.</p>
  4928.  
  4929.  
  4930.  
  4931. <p>So, you get this brown envelope with everything that you&#8217;re supposed to have.</p>
  4932.  
  4933.  
  4934.  
  4935. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4936.  
  4937.  
  4938.  
  4939. <p>Yup. Your Social Security. Yup.</p>
  4940.  
  4941.  
  4942.  
  4943. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4944.  
  4945.  
  4946.  
  4947. <p>You get a brown envelope with everything that you are supposed to be given when you leave that institution. And I didn&#8217;t leave with everything that I was supposed to leave with.</p>
  4948.  
  4949.  
  4950.  
  4951. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4952.  
  4953.  
  4954.  
  4955. <p>Intentionally?</p>
  4956.  
  4957.  
  4958.  
  4959. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4960.  
  4961.  
  4962.  
  4963. <p>Intentionally.</p>
  4964.  
  4965.  
  4966.  
  4967. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4968.  
  4969.  
  4970.  
  4971. <p>Yeah.</p>
  4972.  
  4973.  
  4974.  
  4975. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4976.  
  4977.  
  4978.  
  4979. <p>Right? So, thank God, one of my friends that works at Prepare came to get me and was able to pull up my file off of her phone and show that I had been accepted into a place, and they were able to use that paperwork to show that I had an address. So, I was able to use paperwork from one of my friends that supported me, that came to get me. What about the people that don&#8217;t have support? When you wonder why people are going back, it&#8217;s because they&#8217;re not prepared when you put them out there.</p>
  4980.  
  4981.  
  4982.  
  4983. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  4984.  
  4985.  
  4986.  
  4987. <p>Right.</p>
  4988.  
  4989.  
  4990.  
  4991. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  4992.  
  4993.  
  4994.  
  4995. <p>Right? We have a really good reentry person that&#8217;s on A East. We have a couple of really good phenomenal case managers, but they can&#8217;t do what they&#8217;re supposed to do. How is that?</p>
  4996.  
  4997.  
  4998.  
  4999. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5000.  
  5001.  
  5002.  
  5003. <p>Yeah.</p>
  5004.  
  5005.  
  5006.  
  5007. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5008.  
  5009.  
  5010.  
  5011. <p>Why is that?</p>
  5012.  
  5013.  
  5014.  
  5015. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5016.  
  5017.  
  5018.  
  5019. <p>Why is that? Why is that?</p>
  5020.  
  5021.  
  5022.  
  5023. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5024.  
  5025.  
  5026.  
  5027. <p>Why is that? Why are they limited?</p>
  5028.  
  5029.  
  5030.  
  5031. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5032.  
  5033.  
  5034.  
  5035. <p>Right.</p>
  5036.  
  5037.  
  5038.  
  5039. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5040.  
  5041.  
  5042.  
  5043. <p>We have someone that is a reentry person in the facility, but I didn&#8217;t get to see her until a week or two before I went home. Why did they not give me access to her or her access to me because she&#8217;s there to give me what I needed before I left. But someone didn&#8217;t put my name on the list, and I didn&#8217;t have access. Did you set me up to succeed or to fail?</p>
  5044.  
  5045.  
  5046.  
  5047. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5048.  
  5049.  
  5050.  
  5051. <p>Oh, it&#8217;s no doubt. It is no doubt in my mind that the fact that y&#8217;all here today is only by the grace of God. There&#8217;s no doubt in my mind because everything y&#8217;all say is designed for you to fail. It&#8217;s designed like you said, I think you said earlier, Christina, &#8220;Don&#8217;t let them rent space in your head.&#8221; Well, some people got a mansion being written in their head because they don&#8217;t have no other choice.</p>
  5052.  
  5053.  
  5054.  
  5055. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5056.  
  5057.  
  5058.  
  5059. <p>Right.</p>
  5060.  
  5061.  
  5062.  
  5063. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5064.  
  5065.  
  5066.  
  5067. <p>Some people, this system and the women&#8217;s cut, and it&#8217;s premeditated on the part of the State of Maryland, and you talking about the governor, Wes Moore, and then you put somebody in the secretary Department of Public Safety that&#8217;s responsible for overseeing a prison system. But yet this has been going on since, I think, since the women&#8217;s cut been in existence. It hasn&#8217;t gotten any better. And the problem, I think, that we really need to recognize is that it&#8217;s intentional, and it&#8217;s designed to make sure that the women that leave, they leave in a broken state, and they don&#8217;t have no choice but to revert back to behavior because like you say, they getting out. So, they don&#8217;t have no choice but to revert back to the same behavior and keep this system afloat.</p>
  5068.  
  5069.  
  5070.  
  5071. <p>Christina, talk about [inaudible 00:19:50] out and really your process of once you got out and how you started re acclimating yourself back into society. I know you say you&#8217;re doing work. Talk about some of the things that you&#8217;re doing.</p>
  5072.  
  5073.  
  5074.  
  5075. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5076.  
  5077.  
  5078.  
  5079. <p>Yeah, so luckily, just to reiterate that a little bit back on what Ameena was saying, I was on work release, and you&#8217;d leave with a brown envelope. But when I was on work release, I did not qualify for the reentry classes because I was at work. And so, for me to be able to get my insurance and my ID card, I would have to miss work with a pass. And so, when they gave me a pass for me to get all my insurances and my cards to get all that stuff processed, I would miss work and stay back, and then they wouldn&#8217;t show. So, luckily I had documents at home. I was able to, when I got released, I had to go handle everything on my own because the institution didn&#8217;t help me get any documents, no insurance, no ID. So, when I was released, luckily enough, my family was able to run me around and take me to get all the documents and all the things I needed.</p>
  5080.  
  5081.  
  5082.  
  5083. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5084.  
  5085.  
  5086.  
  5087. <p>We have women that don&#8217;t have-</p>
  5088.  
  5089.  
  5090.  
  5091. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5092.  
  5093.  
  5094.  
  5095. <p>They don&#8217;t have that, and they don&#8217;t have the knowledge. Luckily, I was able to know where I had to go, what I had to do and the websites and the places that I had to visit to get the information I needed to get to accomplish what I need to accomplish. But if they&#8217;re not given that information, how do they know when they come home? We&#8217;re talking about some of the younger generation that are coming home. What do they do? But luckily, we have certain people that help, and they got support, and they can do it. But now, I work for a non-profit. It&#8217;s called Prepare. We help re-entry, and we help incarcerated individuals prepare for their parole and come home with re-entry services. We get them set up with their documents and re-entry facilities or housing places to go. So, I love my job. It&#8217;s fantastic.</p>
  5096.  
  5097.  
  5098.  
  5099. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5100.  
  5101.  
  5102.  
  5103. <p>So, what you been eating? A lot of chicken?</p>
  5104.  
  5105.  
  5106.  
  5107. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5108.  
  5109.  
  5110.  
  5111. <p>Everything. Everything but ham and turkey. I don&#8217;t need no turkey. Not no turkey based products.</p>
  5112.  
  5113.  
  5114.  
  5115. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5116.  
  5117.  
  5118.  
  5119. <p>How about your transition? First, where are you staying? You got your own place?</p>
  5120.  
  5121.  
  5122.  
  5123. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5124.  
  5125.  
  5126.  
  5127. <p>No. So, fortunately I&#8217;m a veteran. So, I&#8217;m at McVets.</p>
  5128.  
  5129.  
  5130.  
  5131. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5132.  
  5133.  
  5134.  
  5135. <p>Okay.</p>
  5136.  
  5137.  
  5138.  
  5139. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5140.  
  5141.  
  5142.  
  5143. <p>So, I&#8217;m not far from here, but I&#8217;m at a veteran&#8217;s transitional education and learning training place. That&#8217;s good. I&#8217;m not working. I&#8217;m a little over 30 days out. I have to take care of me.</p>
  5144.  
  5145.  
  5146.  
  5147. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5148.  
  5149.  
  5150.  
  5151. <p>Oh, yeah.</p>
  5152.  
  5153.  
  5154.  
  5155. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5156.  
  5157.  
  5158.  
  5159. <p>Seriously. I thought that I was going to hit the ground running. Mm-mm. [inaudible 00:23:03] a little bit too fast, so I am in the process of getting counseling. I&#8217;m in the process of figuring me out outside of from behind those walls. I&#8217;m learning that I don&#8217;t have to fight as hard on the outside as I had to fight on the inside.</p>
  5160.  
  5161.  
  5162.  
  5163. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5164.  
  5165.  
  5166.  
  5167. <p>Yeah.</p>
  5168.  
  5169.  
  5170.  
  5171. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5172.  
  5173.  
  5174.  
  5175. <p>Right? To be a Muslim, I had to fight to be a Muslim.</p>
  5176.  
  5177.  
  5178.  
  5179. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5180.  
  5181.  
  5182.  
  5183. <p>I know. Believe me, I know.</p>
  5184.  
  5185.  
  5186.  
  5187. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5188.  
  5189.  
  5190.  
  5191. <p>I had to fight-</p>
  5192.  
  5193.  
  5194.  
  5195. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5196.  
  5197.  
  5198.  
  5199. <p>Yeah.</p>
  5200.  
  5201.  
  5202.  
  5203. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5204.  
  5205.  
  5206.  
  5207. <p>To be a Muslim.</p>
  5208.  
  5209.  
  5210.  
  5211. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5212.  
  5213.  
  5214.  
  5215. <p>Talk about&#8230; Like I told you earlier, I was in Islam when I was incarcerated, and it was Salam vs. Collins. Well, before Salam vs. Collins came out. But Salah versus Collins established the equity as far as Islamic coordinator because you had a Christian chaplain that was regulating all the affairs. So, we wound up getting Islamic coordinator, but before all that came about, like Ramadan, they didn&#8217;t have no break fast. No, get up in the morning and break fast. No start to fast. None of that. If the sun set later than the chow line, whatever you had, you had to hold back. And that&#8217;s how it was before. But since then, it changed. But how, in your situation because I know that they making it hard. Mainly if you litigious and then you say you have the audacity to say that, &#8220;Not only I&#8217;m litigious, but I&#8217;m also a Muslim woman, Black woman at that.&#8221; How was you able to deal with those things?</p>
  5216.  
  5217.  
  5218.  
  5219. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5220.  
  5221.  
  5222.  
  5223. <p>What I&#8217;m going to say to you is I never tried to compare one religion to another religion, but I was able to show on way too many times the seven day a week studies for one group and one for this one. Right? Not do for me what you&#8217;re doing for them, but recognize the difference. And if you can accommodate, accommodate. Ramadan starts and ends whenever it wants to when you&#8217;re in prison.</p>
  5224.  
  5225.  
  5226.  
  5227. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5228.  
  5229.  
  5230.  
  5231. <p>Oh yeah. I already know.</p>
  5232.  
  5233.  
  5234.  
  5235. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5236.  
  5237.  
  5238.  
  5239. <p>Right? So, I&#8217;m obligated as a Muslim to do Ramadan. So, I had better be prepared to start it when it starts and end it when it ends. Because several times start when they felt like it. We&#8217;re not ready today. Y&#8217;all aren&#8217;t real Muslims anyway. That&#8217;s one of the things, fake Muslims. That&#8217;s a super-duper word when you&#8217;re incarcerated, right? Sleeves. They took our jeans and T-shirts and all these other things and gave us uniforms. And up until the day that I left, they still never gave me long sleeves. So, I always had to wear thermals or long sleeve T-shirts under the short sleeve uniform that I was issued. So, in the summertime I was dressed in layers because they wouldn&#8217;t accommodate me. But if I went to work or if a program came in and they gave out a T-shirt, I&#8217;d be like, &#8220;Hey, can I get a long sleeved T-shirt?&#8221; &#8220;Absolutely.&#8221; But in the prison where I had to be, I couldn&#8217;t be accommodated. You&#8217;re allowed, according to Kohmar, one religious meal. We barely got that one. But there are other groups that got, before I left, five in one year.</p>
  5240.  
  5241.  
  5242.  
  5243. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5244.  
  5245.  
  5246.  
  5247. <p>And you know what? And on that note right there, this is the problem that I&#8217;m having and that I think our audience need to understand is that taxpayers paying for that, it&#8217;s taxpayers&#8217; money that&#8217;s keeping this thing that we call a prison industrial complex afloat. This ain&#8217;t about a person doing time. This ain&#8217;t about a person committing a crime. This is about whether or not you are obeying the law because this is about the law. This ain&#8217;t about Ameena. This ain&#8217;t about Christina. This ain&#8217;t about Man. This is about the law. Now, if you ain&#8217;t obeying the law, then you should be held accountable.</p>
  5248.  
  5249.  
  5250.  
  5251. <p>And if you taking and intentionally discriminating against people because of their religion, it say you shouldn&#8217;t be discriminating against religious or your gender or none of these things. But as you outline, if you transgender, if you accept that identity, if you accept that pronoun and you in the woman&#8217;s cut, then they&#8217;re going to say, &#8220;Well, okay. You a man in a woman&#8217;s prison. I can abuse you as such. I&#8217;m not recognizing.&#8221; But then you don&#8217;t have the outcry from the transgender community in society. You understand what I&#8217;m saying? Let somebody come up and say something on TV about something that they deem demeaning, and it&#8217;s an outcry, but when it come to prison-</p>
  5252.  
  5253.  
  5254.  
  5255. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5256.  
  5257.  
  5258.  
  5259. <p>They don&#8217;t want to hear it.</p>
  5260.  
  5261.  
  5262.  
  5263. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5264.  
  5265.  
  5266.  
  5267. <p>&#8220;I&#8217;m transgender. I&#8217;m in prison. I&#8217;m being abused. Help me.&#8221; But if I&#8217;m on the street, I&#8217;m transgender, somebody say use a derogatory term towards me, oh, it&#8217;s all, &#8220;Yeah.&#8221; Or if I&#8217;m in society and somebody is Islamic-phobia, it become an outcry. But in the prison system, mainly within the women&#8217;s&#8230; But talk about this, and both of y&#8217;all can weigh on this individual. Talk about the young women because the population in changed. It&#8217;s lot more younger. Talk about where you see them at in terms of the impact this is having on them. When I left, we was doing things to try to get control over, but they clicked up blue, red, alphabets. You know what I&#8217;m saying? It was like a nightmare in terms of trying to get some things done. We was able to get some things done because we was able to press the issue. But talk about the young ladies.</p>
  5268.  
  5269.  
  5270.  
  5271. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5272.  
  5273.  
  5274.  
  5275. <p>So, let me say this. I got a couple of things I want to say because I said intentional. So, let me say two things before I say that. They pit the women against each other, and that&#8217;s why we don&#8217;t fight together. Right.</p>
  5276.  
  5277.  
  5278.  
  5279. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5280.  
  5281.  
  5282.  
  5283. <p>Yes.</p>
  5284.  
  5285.  
  5286.  
  5287. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5288.  
  5289.  
  5290.  
  5291. <p>So, you have the transgender women, and then you have the women who are not transgender. If they do something to benefit the transgender women, then the women who are not transgender, I&#8217;m not saying jealous, but why should they be able to get supplements, and we can&#8217;t get supplements? So, we&#8217;re unable to come together. So, when I say intentional, they do things to put things in place to make us not be able to come together like that. If we were able to get rehabilitated, you&#8217;re never going to be able to do pre-release inside of a prison setting. You&#8217;re never going to get what you need.</p>
  5292.  
  5293.  
  5294.  
  5295. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5296.  
  5297.  
  5298.  
  5299. <p>No.</p>
  5300.  
  5301.  
  5302.  
  5303. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5304.  
  5305.  
  5306.  
  5307. <p>Right. And if you don&#8217;t prepare them to do what they&#8217;re supposed to do, if you don&#8217;t find an alternative to just incarcerating people, those are our children that are in there. I&#8217;ve seen mothers and daughters and granddaughters [inaudible 00:30:51].</p>
  5308.  
  5309.  
  5310.  
  5311. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5312.  
  5313.  
  5314.  
  5315. <p>Yeah. Three generations.</p>
  5316.  
  5317.  
  5318.  
  5319. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5320.  
  5321.  
  5322.  
  5323. <p>I&#8217;ve seen families in this place. I&#8217;ve seen communities in this place. You&#8217;re going to have to find an alternative to that, and you&#8217;re going to have to make your&#8230; People are paying, like you said, their money for nothing. No one wants to give away money. People complain about how much things cost, and yet you&#8217;re giving up money because nothing&#8217;s happening. We&#8217;re not being taken care of properly, and our children are coming in there because we&#8217;re in there. Who&#8217;s going to raise my children? Who raised my children? [inaudible 00:31:28]. My family raised my children. But what about someone else who didn&#8217;t have that support? There was a bunch of ladies in there with me who didn&#8217;t have that support, and their children came in ready for it, ready for whatever, and you can&#8217;t raise them then. It&#8217;s hard.</p>
  5324.  
  5325.  
  5326.  
  5327. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5328.  
  5329.  
  5330.  
  5331. <p>Oh, I know.</p>
  5332.  
  5333.  
  5334.  
  5335. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5336.  
  5337.  
  5338.  
  5339. <p>These kids are coming in with their grandmothers and aunts and they&#8217;re, &#8220;I don&#8217;t know you because you&#8217;ve been in here just as long as&#8230; &#8220;</p>
  5340.  
  5341.  
  5342.  
  5343. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5344.  
  5345.  
  5346.  
  5347. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  5348.  
  5349.  
  5350.  
  5351. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5352.  
  5353.  
  5354.  
  5355. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  5356.  
  5357.  
  5358.  
  5359. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5360.  
  5361.  
  5362.  
  5363. <p>Right?</p>
  5364.  
  5365.  
  5366.  
  5367. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5368.  
  5369.  
  5370.  
  5371. <p>Christine?</p>
  5372.  
  5373.  
  5374.  
  5375. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5376.  
  5377.  
  5378.  
  5379. <p>It&#8217;s sad because I watched so many young kids come in, and they get younger and younger and younger, and it&#8217;s so hard to offer any advice because they don&#8217;t want to hear it. They know everything. And it&#8217;s hard to offer suggestions and directions when they can run wild because there&#8217;s no structure. You&#8217;re coming to a facility with no structure, no regulation, and you can pretty much run around and do what you want. You get in trouble, there&#8217;s really no punishment besides going to a lockup where you can go get what you want. You get more what you want. You just pay more for it. [inaudible 00:33:05]. And it&#8217;s sad. I&#8217;ve watched the facility run out of toilet paper. I&#8217;ve watched the officers throw cookout and barbecues for themselves, but yet we can&#8217;t get toilet paper, and they&#8217;re having cookouts.</p>
  5380.  
  5381.  
  5382.  
  5383. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5384.  
  5385.  
  5386.  
  5387. <p>Yeah. Officer appreciation.</p>
  5388.  
  5389.  
  5390.  
  5391. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5392.  
  5393.  
  5394.  
  5395. <p>Yeah.</p>
  5396.  
  5397.  
  5398.  
  5399. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5400.  
  5401.  
  5402.  
  5403. <p>Once a month.</p>
  5404.  
  5405.  
  5406.  
  5407. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5408.  
  5409.  
  5410.  
  5411. <p>It&#8217;s so backwards. It really needs help because there&#8217;s no way to rehabilitate us. There&#8217;s no substance abuse programs. There&#8217;s no&#8230;</p>
  5412.  
  5413.  
  5414.  
  5415. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5416.  
  5417.  
  5418.  
  5419. <p>Cognitive.</p>
  5420.  
  5421.  
  5422.  
  5423. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5424.  
  5425.  
  5426.  
  5427. <p>&#8230; cognitive programs. There&#8217;s no mental health. There&#8217;s no therapy. There&#8217;s no proper medication treatments. There&#8217;s nothing. I believe it&#8217;s in Komar to where when you go in and you get classified, you get put into a job bank or you get put into education.</p>
  5428.  
  5429.  
  5430.  
  5431. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5432.  
  5433.  
  5434.  
  5435. <p>One of the two.</p>
  5436.  
  5437.  
  5438.  
  5439. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5440.  
  5441.  
  5442.  
  5443. <p>These young kids are coming in with no GEDs, no high school diplomas. You get mandatory education. You have to go to school.</p>
  5444.  
  5445.  
  5446.  
  5447. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5448.  
  5449.  
  5450.  
  5451. <p>But there&#8217;s a waiting list.</p>
  5452.  
  5453.  
  5454.  
  5455. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5456.  
  5457.  
  5458.  
  5459. <p>They&#8217;re not going to school. Schools are empty.</p>
  5460.  
  5461.  
  5462.  
  5463. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5464.  
  5465.  
  5466.  
  5467. <p>As we close out, we&#8217;re going to start with you, Ameena.</p>
  5468.  
  5469.  
  5470.  
  5471. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5472.  
  5473.  
  5474.  
  5475. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  5476.  
  5477.  
  5478.  
  5479. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5480.  
  5481.  
  5482.  
  5483. <p>As we close out, what&#8217;s your final thought? What do you want people to know about what we need to do or what you think they should be doing or what their outlook should be on? I mean, finish that out. You ain&#8217;t telling nobody, but if you had the ability to convey or tell somebody how to operate in this environment, and I&#8217;m talking about policy makers.</p>
  5484.  
  5485.  
  5486.  
  5487. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5488.  
  5489.  
  5490.  
  5491. <p>Oversight. Most recently an ombudsman bill was introduced. It needs to be taken seriously. They have to interact with the people that are incarcerated. Because if you only deal with the people, the admin or the staff, they&#8217;re not going to tell you what&#8217;s going on. But we&#8217;re out here, and we&#8217;re going to talk about these things. There are some of us out here now that are going to talk about these things, so they need to listen to us and take what we&#8217;re saying seriously. And even for people who have people incarcerated, when they tell you that something is wrong, something is wrong. Having a family member incarcerated is like having your child in school or your parent in a nursing home. You better check-</p>
  5492.  
  5493.  
  5494.  
  5495. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5496.  
  5497.  
  5498.  
  5499. <p>That&#8217;s right.</p>
  5500.  
  5501.  
  5502.  
  5503. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5504.  
  5505.  
  5506.  
  5507. <p>&#8230; to make sure that&#8230; We&#8217;re broken. Right? We&#8217;re broken. Help us to be better.</p>
  5508.  
  5509.  
  5510.  
  5511. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5512.  
  5513.  
  5514.  
  5515. <p>Help us to be better. Christina, you have the last thought.</p>
  5516.  
  5517.  
  5518.  
  5519. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5520.  
  5521.  
  5522.  
  5523. <p>I wish that the officers within the institutions would really wake up and do their job. Just do your job and do it the right way, and treat us as we&#8217;re people, and help us rehabilitate ourselves. And I will absolutely piggyback on Ameena to check on us. Like I understand we broke the law. We did something wrong.</p>
  5524.  
  5525.  
  5526.  
  5527. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5528.  
  5529.  
  5530.  
  5531. <p>Yes.</p>
  5532.  
  5533.  
  5534.  
  5535. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5536.  
  5537.  
  5538.  
  5539. <p>We made a bad choice, but we are still a person, and we are still within a facility that we are trying to get better because I will tell you that probably over 90% of us are actually trying to get better.</p>
  5540.  
  5541.  
  5542.  
  5543. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5544.  
  5545.  
  5546.  
  5547. <p>There you have it. The Real News, Rattling the Bars. Sincerely, I appreciate y&#8217;all coming in and rattling the bars with me today. I want to make sure that our audience understand this, that we are talking about human beings. We&#8217;re talking about somebody&#8217;s mother. We&#8217;re talking about somebody&#8217;s daughter. We&#8217;re talking about somebody&#8217;s granddaughter. We&#8217;re talking about real live human beings, and all they asking to be treated like human beings. And more importantly, be treated like everybody else. What the rules and regulations say, if I violate them, you going to punch me, then let me get the benefit of those things that I&#8217;m supposed to get. And I&#8217;m telling you this, and I&#8217;m going to direct this to Governor Wes Moore, oversight.</p>
  5548.  
  5549.  
  5550.  
  5551. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5552.  
  5553.  
  5554.  
  5555. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  5556.  
  5557.  
  5558.  
  5559. <p>Christina Merryman:</p>
  5560.  
  5561.  
  5562.  
  5563. <p>Yes.</p>
  5564.  
  5565.  
  5566.  
  5567. <p>Veronica (Ameena) Deramous:</p>
  5568.  
  5569.  
  5570.  
  5571. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  5572.  
  5573.  
  5574.  
  5575. <p>Mansa Musa:</p>
  5576.  
  5577.  
  5578.  
  5579. <p>Thank you.</p>
  5580. ]]></content:encoded>
  5584. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313132</post-id> </item>
  5585. <item>
  5586. <title>Update on the status of The Chris Hedges Report from TRNN’s Editor-in-Chief</title>
  5587. <link>https://therealnews.com/update-on-the-status-of-the-chris-hedges-report-from-trnns-editor-in-chief</link>
  5589. <dc:creator><![CDATA[TRNN]]></dc:creator>
  5590. <pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2024 23:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
  5591. <category><![CDATA[Press Releases]]></category>
  5592. <category><![CDATA[internal]]></category>
  5593. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=313037</guid>
  5594.  
  5595. <description><![CDATA[I write to confirm that The Real News Network (TRNN) will unfortunately no longer be able to produce and co-publish The Chris Hedges Report. All past episodes produced by TRNN are freely available on TRNN and Chris’s Substack, and Chris has full rights to publish all other recorded and as-yet unpublished episodes. For the past [&#8230;]]]></description>
  5596. <content:encoded><![CDATA[
  5597. <p class="has-drop-cap">I write to confirm that The Real News Network (TRNN) will unfortunately no longer be able to produce and co-publish <em>The Chris Hedges Report</em>. All past episodes produced by TRNN are freely available on TRNN and Chris’s Substack, and Chris has full rights to publish all other recorded and as-yet unpublished episodes. For the past two years, TRNN’s non-monetary agreement with Chris entailed producing <em>The Chris Hedges Report</em> for his independent Substack and for TRNN, in exchange for each party, including Chris himself, having full publishing rights to the show. Throughout the duration of that contract, Chris has not been an employee of TRNN, his income from the show has derived and will continue to derive from Substack, and TRNN has no intention or ability to censor or suppress the show, nor to prevent Chris from continuing to produce the show. Chris has assured us and his audience that the show will continue. We are incredibly proud of the work we’ve done together with Chris over the past two years, and the episodes of <em>The Chris Hedges Report</em> we produced together will remain on TRNN’s site, YouTube channel, and on Substack.</p>
  5598.  
  5599.  
  5600.  
  5601. <p>As Editor-in-Chief of TRNN, this difficult decision was mine alone, and it was a decision I made after exhausting all options to avoid it. Chris Hedges needs to be free to be Chris Hedges, and he’s got to be free to say what’s in his heart without being restricted by working within a nonprofit newsroom. And I, ultimately, am the Editor-in-Chief of a nonprofit newsroom. I resolutely affirm that this decision had nothing to do with Chris’s excellent and important coverage on vital issues from Israel and the war on Gaza to the trial of Julian Assange—issues that matter deeply to our audience, our entire team, and our network of freelance contributors. We will continue our longstanding commitment to reporting on these and other stories, and we have no ill will whatsoever towards Chris Hedges, and we are so grateful for the time we got to work together. I am heartbroken to lose Chris as a colleague, but we remain comrades in the struggle for truth, justice, and life. I will forever cherish our conversations, our chess games between recordings, our camaraderie, and our friendship, and I can’t wait to see what this titan of journalism does next. </p>
  5602.  
  5603.  
  5604.  
  5605. <p>With love and solidarity, <br>Maximillian Alvarez<br>Editor-in-Chief, TRNN</p>
  5606.  
  5607.  
  5608.  
  5609. <figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><img decoding="async" width="780" height="585" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?resize=780%2C585&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-313038" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?w=960&amp;ssl=1 960w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?resize=300%2C225&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?resize=768%2C576&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?resize=800%2C600&amp;ssl=1 800w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?resize=600%2C450&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?resize=400%2C300&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?resize=200%2C150&amp;ssl=1 200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/CdDhGjEdXuHi6Va-tBFVVwEG9Zh9YN7lW3e_oFGc7qgrp2qVwzEtcsDbvBRn3mpRPGN9BEfKOoLVoWejqiOOIjnCAYhT5rs9PtO-_NwdRVc3EmTSQ8Ik_8QJGwrCPzbXJgpbO2ernSTyXJyJpPa53HE.jpg?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w" sizes="(max-width: 780px) 100vw, 780px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure>
  5610. ]]></content:encoded>
  5614. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">313037</post-id> </item>
  5615. <item>
  5616. <title>Inside the &#8216;Student Intifada&#8217;: A roundtable with campus organizers</title>
  5617. <link>https://therealnews.com/inside-the-student-intifada-a-roundtable-with-campus-organizers</link>
  5619. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Maximillian Alvarez]]></dc:creator>
  5620. <pubDate>Fri, 03 May 2024 13:56:38 +0000</pubDate>
  5621. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  5622. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  5623. <category><![CDATA[Racial Justice]]></category>
  5624. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  5625. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  5626. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  5627. <category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
  5628. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312957</guid>
  5629.  
  5630. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A demonstrator holds up flares during a pro-Palestinian demonstration in the courtyard of the Institute of Political Studies building in Lyon, central Eastern France, on April 30, 2024. Photo by OLIVIER CHASSIGNOLE/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Students organizing for divestment from Stanford, Indiana University, University of Michigan, and other schools share experiences and lessons from the ground.]]></description>
  5631. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A demonstrator holds up flares during a pro-Palestinian demonstration in the courtyard of the Institute of Political Studies building in Lyon, central Eastern France, on April 30, 2024. Photo by OLIVIER CHASSIGNOLE/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-2150308877-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  5632. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  5633. <iframe title="&quot;Student Intifada&quot; livestream: Stanford, University of Michigan, Indiana University, &amp; more" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Mu-hVJdQ4PM?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  5634. </div></figure>
  5635.  
  5636.  
  5637.  
  5638. <p class="has-drop-cap">Seven months into Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza, a student-led grassroots movement is spreading across the US and beyond, hearkening back to the student protests of the ‘60s that played a pivotal role in ending the US war in Vietnam. In what is being called the “student intifada,” with over 100 encampments going up at different college and university campuses, students, faculty, grad students, and other campus community members are exercising civil disobedience, occupying space on campuses, defying brutal repression from administrators and police, combatting skewed and wildly lopsided narratives in corporate media, and pressuring their universities to “disclose and divest” their investments in companies and financial institutions connected to Israel.</p>
  5639.  
  5640.  
  5641.  
  5642. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  5643. <p>Studio Production: Adam Coley, Cameron Granadino, David Hebden<br>Pre-Production: Maximillian Alvarez, Jocelyn Dombroski</p>
  5644. </blockquote>
  5645.  
  5646.  
  5647.  
  5648. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  5649.  
  5650.  
  5651.  
  5652. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  5653.  
  5654.  
  5655.  
  5656. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  5657.  
  5658.  
  5659.  
  5660. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5661.  
  5662.  
  5663.  
  5664. <p>Welcome everyone to The Real News Network. My name is Maximillian Alvarez. I&#8217;m the editor-in-chief here at The Real News, and it&#8217;s so great to have you all with us. Before we get rolling today, I want to quickly remind you all that The Real News is an independent viewer and listener-supported grassroots media network. We don&#8217;t take corporate cash, we don&#8217;t have ads, and we never put our reporting behind paywalls. We got a small, but incredibly dedicated, team of folks who are trying their best to lift up the voices from the front lines of struggle here in the US and around the world. But we cannot continue to do this work without you and your support, and we need you to become a supporter of The Real News now. So please head on over to therealnews.com/donate. Become a donor today, I promise you it really makes a difference.</p>
  5665.  
  5666.  
  5667.  
  5668. <p>It is being called the Student Intifada, a grassroots protest movement spreading to different college and university campuses around the country involving students at over a hundred campuses, setting up encampments, occupations and protests to demand an end to Israel&#8217;s US-backed genocidal war on Gaza and its ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and to pressure university administrations to disclose and divest their institution&#8217;s financial ties to the Israeli war machine and the military industrial complex. What we are seeing in these encampments is an escalation of tactics by student organizers, grad student workers, faculty, and other campus community members who have been organizing and protesting since October 7th. And in many cases, well before. Encampments have been set up at big and small campuses, public and private, from the Ivy League campuses of Columbia University, Harvard and Princeton to flagship state universities in Michigan, Minnesota, Texas, Arizona, Ohio, and Florida. From Cal Poly Humboldt to the Community College of Denver. And encampments are even cropping up in countries like France, the UK and Ireland, Canada, New Zealand, Jordan and Japan.</p>
  5669.  
  5670.  
  5671.  
  5672. <p>But we are also seeing a corresponding escalation of tactics from the establishment, from the police, from the university administrative and donor class, from Zionist counter protesters, and from a hostile corporate media. On Tuesday night, April 30th, exactly 56 years to the day after the 1968 student occupation at Columbia University was brutally squashed by the New York Police Department. At the request of Columbia University President Minouche Shafik, an army of hundreds of New York police officers stormed the Columbia campus this week demolishing the encampment, raiding the occupation at Hamilton Hall, kettling students, faculty and student journalists on campus. Arresting over a hundred people. And at that same time, mayor Eric Adams sent another army of cops to raid the City University of New York encampment. Police have been storming our institutions of higher education, violently cracking down on protesters and bystanders on campuses from UT Austin and Texas to Emory University in Georgia.</p>
  5673.  
  5674.  
  5675.  
  5676. <p>Videos of professors being slammed to the ground and dragged away unconscious have been going viral. Videos of Zionist counter protesters instigating violence while campus security and police stand by and let it happen have also been circulating widely. And we&#8217;re going to check in soon with our LA-based reporter, Mel Buer, to talk about what she saw firsthand two nights ago at the UCLA encampment and elsewhere in Southern California. We are standing right in the middle of history and what happens next depends on what we all do now. The stakes are incredibly high, the violence is very real, and the fate of this struggle will hinge on the bravery, courage, conviction, strategy, and solidarity of those on the ground, and the support and protection they get from their campus communities, the public and from each other. And while the corporate media, cops, and politicians hell-bent on defending Israel at all costs, do what they can to squash this movement into unbeing.</p>
  5677.  
  5678.  
  5679.  
  5680. <p>Let it never be forgotten that the reason we are here now is because there is a genocide happening in real-time. Funded by our tax dollars, supported by our elected officials. Tens of thousands killed, generations of Palestinians have been wiped off the face of the earth. Gaza itself is a pile of rubble; hospitals, homes, universities and schools obliterated. Over a million people displaced, disease and forced starvation are killing children, elders, men, women, everyone, as we speak. This is a systematic slaughter, and people of conscience everywhere, including on college campuses, are doing whatever they can to stop it. And today, as we always do with The Real News, we&#8217;re going to take you directly to the front lines of struggle so you can hear for yourself what is happening on the ground at these encampments, what people are feeling, what they&#8217;re doing, and what you can do to get involved.</p>
  5681.  
  5682.  
  5683.  
  5684. <p>We&#8217;ve got an incredible live panel of encampment organizers and participants from Stanford University and Indiana University Bloomington today. We were hoping to have folks from my alma mater, the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, but they are buried with organizing tasks at the moment, graduation is going on, so we wish them well and we will check in with them later, if you haven&#8217;t already listened to my podcast interview on The Real News or from earlier this week with student and grad student organizers at the University of Michigan. We&#8217;re going to get to our panel very soon and we&#8217;re going to hear from our guests about what&#8217;s going on on their campuses. But before we do, we want to give y&#8217;all some updates from other encampments where our extended Real News team have been reporting from. So let&#8217;s get rolling. First up, we&#8217;ve got a video interview with a student organizer of the Johns Hopkins Gaza Encampment right here in Baltimore. This interview was recorded earlier this week by former Real News staff reporter and amazing all around journalist, Jaisal Noor. Let&#8217;s play that clip from Jaisal now.</p>
  5685.  
  5686.  
  5687.  
  5688. <p>Speaker 2:</p>
  5689.  
  5690.  
  5691.  
  5692. <p>We have five demands and they&#8217;re all related to divestment and divulgement of Hopkins and their investment in weapons manufacturers like Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, places like that, who are all complicit in the genocide of the Palestinians, and in many cases are making the weapons or designing the targeting systems that are murdering innocent civilians. So our big request, our top line demand, is that Johns Hopkins University immediately divest. That it pulls its money out of investments in these companies, and instead chooses to invest them in literally any other company that is not currently and actively complicit in the genocide. The other demands are related to divulgement. Of course, they&#8217;re not totally 100% crystal clear about what their demand, rather what their investments are, and who has the exact amounts. So we want them to be very clear and show the student body exactly what financial ties to Israel they have, where those ties are and in what amounts. We want them to be clear with that, so we have some accountability with the divestment.</p>
  5693.  
  5694.  
  5695.  
  5696. <p>After that. The rest of the demands are related to the demilitarization of the university campus. The APL, the Applied Physics Laboratory often has a lot of involvement with the United States government; rocketry, that sort of thing. So we want a demilitarization of campus so that campus resources are not contributing to that genocide. And we want the university to really take up its mission that it proclaims and that the University President, Ron Daniels, proclaims, that the university is a place for democracy to grow and thrive. That is what we&#8217;re asking for here today. But unfortunately, the university has a long track record of not hearing students&#8217; demands when we ask nicely. So this is what happens. We don&#8217;t want to do this encampment. We don&#8217;t want to live in a world where we have to put ourselves on the line for suspension, expulsion, arrest, all sorts of problems just to stop a genocide. But the fact of the matter is that unless we do this, the university will not do anything. So that&#8217;s why we&#8217;re here.</p>
  5697.  
  5698.  
  5699.  
  5700. <p>Jaisal Noor:</p>
  5701.  
  5702.  
  5703.  
  5704. <p>So what do you say to people that are concerned that this movement is inherently anti-Semitic because you&#8217;re protesting Israel?</p>
  5705.  
  5706.  
  5707.  
  5708. <p>Speaker 2:</p>
  5709.  
  5710.  
  5711.  
  5712. <p>So the first thing I would like to get at is that we very, very strongly condemn anti-Semitism, as strongly as we condemn Islamophobia, racism, sexism, homophobia. All these sorts of things, there is absolutely no place for any of them in our encampment. We&#8217;ve gone to great length to ensure that that does not sort of boil over. There&#8217;s a couple counter protesters up by the encampment, they&#8217;re holding an Israeli flag. We&#8217;re not engaging with them, we are not yelling at them, we are not shouting at them, we&#8217;re not getting violent with them. So this very much is not against certainly Jewish people, it is very much against Zionism. And I think the proposition that being Jewish inherently means you&#8217;re Zionist or that you need to be Zionist is a complete fallacy. I think that&#8217;s sort of a designed position that if the Zionist state can permanently link itself to Judaism and make anti-Zionism appear anti-Semitic, then they&#8217;ve won this battle. Then you can&#8217;t say anything bad about the state of Israel without being an anti-Semite.</p>
  5713.  
  5714.  
  5715.  
  5716. <p>But come on folks, look at the national political situation. Bernie Sanders is one of the largest critics of the state of Israel, a renowned Jew. A lot of our organizers are Jewish, have Jewish family members. So many of us have deep ties to that Jewish community, and that&#8217;s not what it&#8217;s about. We&#8217;re not going to synagogues and yelling slurs and being mean to people. We are here having a peaceful protest on campus asking for one thing and one thing only, and that&#8217;s to stop a genocide. I&#8217;m obscuring my face because I would not like to, if possible, be suspended, expelled, and I would like to avoid arrest, among other things. But we don&#8217;t know what action the university is going to take. Within the first couple hours of us being here, admin made at least two attempts to try and get us to take down parts of our encampment and then another attempt to actually have us vacate the area entirely. Both of those failed to great delight.</p>
  5717.  
  5718.  
  5719.  
  5720. <p>It&#8217;s not unreasonable to expect that campus might try and retaliate against students, despite their tendency to proclaim that they&#8217;re these champions of democracy and free speech. There is a very real risk that at some point students might be getting expelled, suspended or arrested. And so covering our faces, I think for a lot of us, is a way to ensure that anonymity as much as possible. And that for our mere presence here, that we are not going to see extreme deleterious consequences. That being said, I know there are plenty of us here that if push comes to shove, are willing to be suspended, expelled, and arrested.</p>
  5721.  
  5722.  
  5723.  
  5724. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5725.  
  5726.  
  5727.  
  5728. <p>Thank you so much, Jaisal, for that report. And everyone should be following Jaisal&#8217;s work, if you&#8217;re not already. Follow him on social media, J-A-I-S-A-L N-O-O-R, incredible reporter. He&#8217;s already on the ground doing more coverage as we speak, and we thank him so much for going to Johns Hopkins and talking to that student organizer who we of course granted anonymity to protect their safety under these very real threats that we are seeing around the country. And I think students have every right to take these precautions because we have seen firsthand how counter protesters are trying to expose their identities, get them fired, get job offers rescinded and ruin their lives. And we, at The Real News Network, will always take whatever precautions we need to protect the safety and rights of our interviewees, and we&#8217;re going to do that today.</p>
  5729.  
  5730.  
  5731.  
  5732. <p>But next we want to go to Columbia University where of course everyone has been talking about the police raid that happened this Tuesday and many of the encampments we&#8217;re seeing around the country sprung up after seeing the encampment at Columbia University. We got a video interview from Columbia before the raid, and this is with an undergraduate of Palestinian descent, which our Real News engagement editor, Ju-Hyun Park, recorded on Columbia&#8217;s campus this past weekend. Now, again, keep in mind, of course this interview was recorded before Tuesday&#8217;s police raid, but I think that makes it all the more important to remember what students were doing there in the first place and what voices the university and the police are actually trying to silence. Let&#8217;s play that clip from Columbia now.</p>
  5733.  
  5734.  
  5735.  
  5736. <p>Speaker 3:</p>
  5737.  
  5738.  
  5739.  
  5740. <p>Honestly, the people of Gaza are the lifeblood of our struggle, and I think just seeing the overwhelming support from the people of Gaza themselves saying that they see us, they see what we&#8217;re doing, they appreciate it. And I think also being a Palestinian myself and having the privilege to be a Palestinian in the diaspora while there are currently no universities left in Gaza, I understand that I have the obligation for my peers in Gaza, for my family in Palestine, to use this university as my platform to call for divestment. In addition to its financial ties, so it has shares in companies that indirectly profit off of Palestinian occupation like Airbnb, but it also is funding military companies like Raytheon that have direct links to the occupation. As well as the financial ties, we also call for an academic boycott of Israel. So Columbia is opening the Tel Aviv Global Center. We have dual degrees with Israel as well as several research opportunities that Palestinian students like myself will never be able to attend due to visa issues. So we also call for complete academic boycott of Israel.</p>
  5741.  
  5742.  
  5743.  
  5744. <p>I would say that it&#8217;s a unifying movement and that it&#8217;s an inclusionary movement. I have never seen the student body galvanized for something this quickly and this intensely and this persistently. Just two days ago, Columbia College voted almost 77% for Columbia College to divest. CUAD, Columbia University Apartheid Divest, represents over a hundred organizations on this campus who are all unified for the struggle for divestment. So I genuinely think that this is a unifying movement, and I think that the administration and a lot of external media is trying to manufacture this otherwise. I think the administration fails to learn from its mistakes that every time it suspends us, every time it comes down with heavy force, the student body only galvanizes further.</p>
  5745.  
  5746.  
  5747.  
  5748. <p>The unjust suspension of SJP and JVP was months ago. And after that, the student movement only grew stronger. After 108 arrests of our peers from the student university administration deploying the NYPD, overriding the University Senate and deploying the NYPD on its own students, the students by the hundreds were ready to jump the fence and start a second encampment. So I think that despite administration&#8217;s repression, despite administration sanctioning violence against its students, that we are more galvanized than ever. I would say once again that this is a unifying movement and that it&#8217;s honestly being manufactured by the media, that it&#8217;s anything other than that.</p>
  5749.  
  5750.  
  5751.  
  5752. <p>And I think that what makes this encampment so beautiful and the people who enter the encampment so beautiful is that we all understand that the Palestinian liberation struggle is the litmus test of our time; that you cannot have Jewish liberation without Palestinian liberation. You cannot have Black liberation without Palestinian liberation. And that&#8217;s clear in our demands as well. When we call for no more land grabs in Palestine, we also call for no more land grabs in Harlem. We call for no more land grabs on the Indigenous Lenape land that we&#8217;re standing on. So I think everybody in this encampment is truly dedicated to complete divestment, and we understand that that complete divestment is what is unifying us.</p>
  5753.  
  5754.  
  5755.  
  5756. <p>I&#8217;ve honestly, at this point in time, I think we&#8217;ve all learned to take what the administration has to say with a grain of salt. We know that they&#8217;re not negotiating in good faith, and we know that no statement that they release is indicative of when they&#8217;re going to come, of when they&#8217;re going to risk another sweep. So honestly, I&#8217;m just inspired that no matter how many statements are being released by Shafik and the administration, how many new moving finish lines are introduced, the students are still here and they&#8217;re still galvanized, and they will not stop and they will not leave the encampment until we get divestment.</p>
  5757.  
  5758.  
  5759.  
  5760. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5761.  
  5762.  
  5763.  
  5764. <p>Again, that interview with an undergraduate at Columbia was recorded this weekend before the overwhelming police raid that ended the encampment on Tuesday, at least temporarily. And we learned through the brave and noble and incredible reporting from student radio journalists at Columbia who were reporting in real-time on Tuesday that the campus community did not receive an email from President Minouche Shafik alerting them that this army of police was about to raid campus. And we are also being told through those journalists that police will have a permanent presence on campus for the rest of the month, even after graduation. So whatever you think about these protests, I mean, you should think about what it means that we&#8217;ve got state police permanently occupying our campuses right now in defense of a foreign government and squashing the rights of our students at our institutions of higher learning. So that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re here to talk about. And I&#8217;m incredibly grateful to our engagement editor, Ju-Hyun Park, for going to Columbia this weekend, recording that interview. And of course, thank you so much to the student organizer for speaking with us.</p>
  5765.  
  5766.  
  5767.  
  5768. <p>Now, before we go to our live panel where again, we&#8217;re going to talk with folks from Stanford University and Indiana University, and we&#8217;re going to talk to them live about what they&#8217;re going through and what&#8217;s happening on their campuses. We want to check in with our real news staff reporter, Mel Buer, who is based in LA and has been running around the past week covering the encampments and the violent repression of those encampments at UCLA, USC and more. And if you guys haven&#8217;t already, go watch Mel&#8217;s appearance on Democracy Now from earlier today where she broke down what she saw firsthand at the violent Zionist counterdemonstration and police crackdown on the UCLA encampment on Tuesday. Mel, thank you so much for joining us, especially after getting up at four in the morning to go on Democracy Now, how are you holding up?</p>
  5769.  
  5770.  
  5771.  
  5772. <p>Mel Buer:</p>
  5773.  
  5774.  
  5775.  
  5776. <p>Oh, I&#8217;m hanging in there. Thanks for having me on. I&#8217;m so excited to be a part of this live stream. I think it&#8217;s incredibly important.</p>
  5777.  
  5778.  
  5779.  
  5780. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5781.  
  5782.  
  5783.  
  5784. <p>Well, we&#8217;re excited to have you, and so grateful for all the great reporting you&#8217;ve been going out and doing there, being on the ground, getting the bear mace all over yourself, just like student organizers themselves. So I want to turn it over to you and ask if you could take the next few minutes to sort of walk us through what you&#8217;ve been reporting on, what you&#8217;ve been seeing across Southern California over the past week.</p>
  5785.  
  5786.  
  5787.  
  5788. <p>Mel Buer:</p>
  5789.  
  5790.  
  5791.  
  5792. <p>Sure. I think maybe the best place to start is just to kind of get a bit of a tally of the number of encampments that have sprung up over the last couple of weeks. The first one being a building occupation at Cal Poly Humboldt, which is about 10 hours north from where I&#8217;m at in Los Angeles. Those undergraduate students held a building for almost 10 days before they were summarily evicted by the police, and they&#8217;re currently regrouping, as far as I know, trying to figure out what to do, bailing folks out of jail. The UC system has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, at least 6 campuses that have encampments. The most recent one that sprang up was UC San Diego yesterday, that also experienced some pretty hefty police response.</p>
  5793.  
  5794.  
  5795.  
  5796. <p>We have students at Occidental College, a private college, that have also set up their own encampment who are trying to finish the job of negotiating actual divestment procedures with Occidental College because those negotiations that they had originally won when they occupied an administration building last semester fizzled out quite quickly over the break and into the new semester. So that&#8217;s what they&#8217;re working on.</p>
  5797.  
  5798.  
  5799.  
  5800. <p>And then we also have a couple more encampments with the CSU system, so California State University, LA and I think Northridge, both set up encampments yesterday in the last couple of days, and I will be heading to those encampments at some point in the near future to talk with students there. So we have from the North to the South, we have an incredible amount of college campuses, universities, even potentially some city community colleges that are setting up demonstrations and encampments in solidarity and in struggle for Palestinian liberation. Obviously, the one that&#8217;s been the biggest in the news recently is UCLA. I was at UCLA last week on the first day of their occupation as they were setting up and experienced quite a wonderful couple of hours of solidarity; students studying together, you could really see that they were determined to stick it out and to force or pressure the UC system to divest from their relationships with Israel and with the Imperial war machine, of which there are many.</p>
  5801.  
  5802.  
  5803.  
  5804. <p>And really it&#8217;s kind of hard, I&#8217;m still processing the last couple of days because these students have grown in number, they built out their encampments. They were doing their best to really de-escalate any sort of aggression from the pro-Israel counter-protesters, which have been causing a ruckus frankly for the last four or five days. Came to a head just two nights ago, and the LA Police Department and various other state agencies then used that violence as an excuse to clear the encampment last night. And they waged essentially all-out war against those students and their allies for six or seven hours last night and finally cleared the encampment just this morning at five AM local time. So it&#8217;s been a bit of a whirlwind the last couple of days.</p>
  5805.  
  5806.  
  5807.  
  5808. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5809.  
  5810.  
  5811.  
  5812. <p>Yeah, and I&#8217;m sure folks have been seeing your footage, like your cell phone footage, going around over the past 48 hours. And I imagine folks who&#8217;ve seen it have been as horrified as everyone here was to see it, with echoes to January 6th, seeing these Zionist counter-protesters just essentially be allowed to go in and wreak this havoc on non-violent encampment protesters. And then, yeah, the kind of ongoing and escalating battle that we saw through your footage of the violence thereof. The very physical violence that materialized in very physical injuries for people. And you yourself, as we talked about, were covered in the mace that was being sprayed all over the place. Of course, we know instances over the past few months of Zionist counter-protesters also instigating violence at these encampments and these protests, even spraying skunk water on other students at Columbia. And as y&#8217;all said on the Democracy Now segment with the panel that you were on this morning, the visual parallels to what we are seeing between Israel and Palestine and Zionist counter-protesters in these encampments is hard to miss.</p>
  5813.  
  5814.  
  5815.  
  5816. <p>And we again, we&#8217;re so grateful to you for being our eyes there and showing people what they&#8217;re not seeing on CNN or hearing from people like Anderson Cooper who are all trying to paint these encampments as being run by outside instigators, that they are threatening the safety of Jewish students, even though so many of the organizers of these encampments are Jewish students themselves. So it&#8217;s really vital to get that on-the-ground perspective. And I just wanted to ask you one more question before we go to our live panel. You have a long history of covering protests on the ground. You were there at the Yellow Vest protests in France. You were there in Minneapolis at the George Floyd Uprising in 2020 while we were here in Baltimore. And in many ways, it feels like this is sort of like a next chapter in that story. I wanted to ask if you could just comment on that in terms of the protests themselves and the police response that you were witnessing.</p>
  5817.  
  5818.  
  5819.  
  5820. <p>Mel Buer:</p>
  5821.  
  5822.  
  5823.  
  5824. <p>Yeah, we were talking about this the other day. The other night, and now last night, and seeing what police departments across the United States have been engaging in on college campuses feels to me sort of like the opening salvo to the next chapter of what was essentially began, I would argue in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2020, and moving forward. And what we are seeing is, every year, because of perhaps failed defunding strategies at various police departments or this growing sense amongst the powerful classes that run this company&#8230; Company, this country. Yeah, okay, this corporation that is a country, there&#8217;s this sense within this crisis of legitimacy that&#8217;s been happening that they&#8217;re kind of losing the thread, and folks are becoming increasingly more agitated, increasingly more dissatisfied with the way things are run here. And especially now with our ostensibly, quote, air quotes, &#8220;progressive president,&#8221; pumping billions into wars across this globe, especially in the occupation in Palestine and the continued bombardment of Palestine folks are fed up.</p>
  5825.  
  5826.  
  5827.  
  5828. <p>And the police response here was very reminiscent of some of the images that came out of the 2020 uprising. I think they&#8217;re even better funded than they were in 2020. I think they&#8217;ve also sort of replenished their ranks with young police officers who maybe, quote, &#8220;missed out on the action.&#8221; I mean, I&#8217;m speculating here, but it felt like 2020. And I&#8217;ve been gathering text messages from colleagues who were out there last night who were astounded at the level of brutality that these police officers were [inaudible 00:28:05] out to students. And so I think with the DNC on the horizon, the election, this continued, just today, Biden, right before we went on air, President Biden had some formal remarks about the campus encampments. And one essential quote here is, &#8220;Dissent is essential for democracy.&#8221; He said at the White House, &#8220;But dissent must never lead to disorder.&#8221;</p>
  5829.  
  5830.  
  5831.  
  5832. <p>So he has no plans to change how he is handling this ongoing genocide in the Middle East. He has no plans to change his own thoughts about how he interacts with Israel. So you can kind of see where we&#8217;re headed. I think no matter who ends up in the White House in November, we&#8217;re going to see more of this, and it&#8217;s going to continue to be a conversation that we&#8217;re having. And we are going to continue to see images coming out of mostly incredibly peaceful dissent. They&#8217;re going to get more graphic, I think, and hopefully we will be here to tell stories about the resilience of these protesters. Obviously, we have all of these in encampment folks who have come on today to talk about the incredible work that they&#8217;re doing.</p>
  5833.  
  5834.  
  5835.  
  5836. <p>And I got to tell you, I was mad impressed by these students holding their own, putting together barricades regularly as they were getting ripped down by these counter protesters and really taking care of each other, especially when the folks who are supposed to be protecting the students are standing by or locking themselves in buildings or not picking up the phone. And the last thing I&#8217;ll say is the future is bright with these folks in it. And I am proud to be a part of this movement, and I&#8217;m proud to be telling stories of this movement, and I look forward to continuing to do that.</p>
  5837.  
  5838.  
  5839.  
  5840. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5841.  
  5842.  
  5843.  
  5844. <p>Oh, yeah. Well, Mel Buer, thank you so much for your reporting. Keep it up. But please get some rest as well.</p>
  5845.  
  5846.  
  5847.  
  5848. <p>Mel Buer:</p>
  5849.  
  5850.  
  5851.  
  5852. <p>Thank you.</p>
  5853.  
  5854.  
  5855.  
  5856. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5857.  
  5858.  
  5859.  
  5860. <p>We need you out there. And for everyone watching, if you&#8217;re not already, please follow Mel on any and all social media platforms where she&#8217;s giving regular updates from the ground in Southern California and beyond, on these encampments. We&#8217;re going to keep covering this across the country and increasingly across the world as best we can. We&#8217;re going to keep checking in with Mel, but yeah, until the next live stream, make sure that you&#8217;re following her on all platforms because you&#8217;re going to get more updates. Mel, thank you so much for all the work that you&#8217;ve done over the past week. Thank you so much for checking in with us. We&#8217;re going to let you go get some sleep, but we&#8217;ll see you soon.</p>
  5861.  
  5862.  
  5863.  
  5864. <p>Mel Buer:</p>
  5865.  
  5866.  
  5867.  
  5868. <p>Thank you. Have a good rest of your live stream.</p>
  5869.  
  5870.  
  5871.  
  5872. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5873.  
  5874.  
  5875.  
  5876. <p>Hell yeah. So again, we are a small but mighty team, fiercely dedicated to lifting up voices from the grassroots of struggle. And that is not going to stop here or anywhere in the future. And now we want to take y&#8217;all to our live panel where we&#8217;re going to talk directly with student, grad student and faculty members, organizers and participants in different encampments at Stanford University and at Indiana University. And you may have been seeing more news stories coming out of those encampments, including a fucking sniper on the roof at Indiana. But we&#8217;ll get to that in a minute, pardon my French.</p>
  5877.  
  5878.  
  5879.  
  5880. <p>I want to start, since we have our folks from Indiana University on here, I want to start there since we were just talking about California, and then we&#8217;re going to go to our group from Stanford. But I wanted to ask if we could just go around the table in this first round, start by introducing yourselves to the live stream viewers and listeners. And in the next three to five minutes, a piece, can you just give us breakdowns of the past week to two weeks from your vantage points, give our listeners the on-the-ground perspective about how you got involved in this movement, what it looks and feels like on the ground, what the response from the administration and the campus community has been, especially over the past few days as police repression has escalated across the country. So let&#8217;s go to our folks from Indiana University. Aidan, can we start with you?</p>
  5881.  
  5882.  
  5883.  
  5884. <p>Aidan Khamis:</p>
  5885.  
  5886.  
  5887.  
  5888. <p>Yeah. So I&#8217;m Aidan Khamis. I&#8217;m a leading organizer with the Indiana Divestment Coalition that&#8217;s leading this encampment, and also separately an organizer with the Palestine Solidarity Committee. And so particularly, we&#8217;ve had an interesting past eight days because we began our encampment on Thursday. And what initially happened is, on the day of our encampment, we were met with state police, state troopers. The administration was very, very quick to bring down military-level force. And on that first day, we also saw the snipers, which I would say continued for three days. And so what had happened is initially on that first day, we had some 33 arrested, which included faculty and students for participation in their encampment. All of them were sent to a site on campus, a warehouse, then processed and sent to a jail. Next, we had a day of relatively quiet, though there was a lot of psychological warfare speeding around the encampment, going quiet on the radio scanners, so on and so forth, drones.</p>
  5889.  
  5890.  
  5891.  
  5892. <p>But come Saturday morning, they doubled down with an even larger onslaught consisting of, at least on the police line, 60 SWAT, if not more. Again, military-level force, a BearCat tear gas grenade launchers, police armed with assault rifles, pepper spray bullets, and again, those snipers. And so on that day, I was arrested along with 21 other individuals. And again, the same processes. Now the university has&#8230; We&#8217;ve held, we rebuilt our encampment each and every time. The police got pushed off each and every time regardless of the raid. And so now we&#8217;re in day eight, and we&#8217;ve seen a relatively minimal police presence. Which again, we think the university is again engaging in that psychological tactics.</p>
  5893.  
  5894.  
  5895.  
  5896. <p>What&#8217;s interesting too is we also have to deal with the counter-protestor issue. They haven&#8217;t necessarily escalated to violence, but we&#8217;ve dealt with pods of individuals coming to harass the camp, speaking of sexual obscenities towards protesters, saying Islamophobic rhetoric and very firmly anti-Semitic rhetoric referring to the Jewish students participating in the encampment as, &#8220;You are not Jewish whatsoever.&#8221; And so we are holding strong and firm until we get those demands. And again, these students are committed. They&#8217;re committed because many of them see what is taking place in Gaza, and they know that although we&#8217;re experiencing a brutal level of force, it is a minuscule amount compared to the sheer atrocity being unleashed in Gaza. But I can hand it off to Anne to give it from her perspective.</p>
  5897.  
  5898.  
  5899.  
  5900. <p>Anne:</p>
  5901.  
  5902.  
  5903.  
  5904. <p>Yeah. Thank you, Aidan. Thank you The Real News for having us on today. Everything Aidan said is a really accurate description of what&#8217;s happened. So just to go over the points so far, there have been two really violent police raids of camp. So these are extremely militarized state troopers that the administration has invited into our campus. Some things that didn&#8217;t go over is that the encampment is taking place in what is known at IU, and what has been known for over 50 years, as a designated free speech zone, as a designated assembly ground. Dunn Meadow has had many, many, many different kinds of encampments, occupations, shantytown, tent cities, by many names over the years, specifically in Dunn Meadow.</p>
  5905.  
  5906.  
  5907.  
  5908. <p>And the night before the encampment began, the Provost Rahul Shrivastav created an ad hoc committee to create a brand new rule that said something about how temporary structures needed prior approval. And it was supposedly under that new ad hoc committee, changed a long-standing 55-year plus policy that enabled state police to come through and just do violence to our students, and additionally some faculty. And so there&#8217;s just layers of administrative cruelty to this that is really upsetting to see.</p>
  5909.  
  5910.  
  5911.  
  5912. <p>I think the other thing that I would also add, just for people watching, there&#8217;s encampments all over the country right now, all over the world right now, but for those who have not yet visited one, I want to say that both the level of violence that you might see from afar is worse and scarier on the ground, but also the level of courageousness and resolve of the students that are organizing it is also so much greater than what you can possibly capture through a screen. And I guess I should have introduced myself. My name&#8217;s Anne, I&#8217;m a graduate student and union organizer, and I&#8217;ve been participating and attending the encampment almost every day, so I&#8217;ve seen this with my own eyes.</p>
  5913.  
  5914.  
  5915.  
  5916. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5917.  
  5918.  
  5919.  
  5920. <p>Well, and Anne, just real quick before we toss it to our panelists from Stanford, could you just say a little bit about how the grad students and the grad union, y&#8217;all were just on strike. I mean, could you say a little bit about how you&#8217;ve entered this movement from the grad student perspective?</p>
  5921.  
  5922.  
  5923.  
  5924. <p>Anne:</p>
  5925.  
  5926.  
  5927.  
  5928. <p>Yeah, absolutely. There&#8217;s a lot that you could say about how labor and Palestine are interconnected, a lot about the way that normalizing this kind of militarized assault on protest affects labor. But I&#8217;ll say that even a really simple example is that less than a week before the encampments, we were on strike and we had tents up at the picket lines, and it was perfectly fine, because of course, a tent on a college campus is perfectly fine. But the reason that these tents are not perfectly fine is because these tents are there as part of a protest against a genocide in Gaza. And that&#8217;s what has been enabling this onslaught. I&#8217;ll say as a graduate, as a union organizer, as a union member, it has been really powerful and important for me to make sure that I&#8230; Oh, I&#8217;m so sorry. What is happening?</p>
  5929.  
  5930.  
  5931.  
  5932. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5933.  
  5934.  
  5935.  
  5936. <p>You&#8217;re good. Yeah, like you were saying, as a grad student, organizer, worker organizer, as a member of the union.</p>
  5937.  
  5938.  
  5939.  
  5940. <p>Anne:</p>
  5941.  
  5942.  
  5943.  
  5944. <p>Yeah, sorry. So one thing, our union membership has not yet had a chance to&#8230; We represent 1,300 members, so we have not had a chance for all of those members to come together and vote and discuss on our feelings towards the encampment. But our leadership has come&#8230; We haven&#8217;t had a chance to have a meeting in a month because of the strike and this encampment, but our leadership, and as well as many of our members, but just to speak for our leadership, of which I&#8217;m a part of, we have really thrown our support both behind the encampment and especially behind condemning this assault on our students. We are instructors. And so when we see&#8230; The only way I can describe the police raids is like watching a tank like maul through a group of students and faculty. So we see this as an assault on our students, and we really condemn this to our fullest extent.</p>
  5945.  
  5946.  
  5947.  
  5948. <p>Additionally, a week before the encampment began, and the day before our strike began, IU faculty voted overwhelmingly no confidence in President Pamela Whitten, Provost Rahul Shrivastav and Vice Provost of Faculty and Academic Affairs, Carrie Docherty. There&#8217;s a lot that can be said about the absolute fiascos and mismanagement that these three administrators have done to this university. In particular, their anti-Palestinian sentiment. But I&#8217;ll just say that that is immediately one of the shared demands of the union and of the IU Divest Coalition. So as a union, we really see our struggles very much as interconnected, and we are doing what we can to support our students and support our students right to protest for and to the genocide in Gaza.</p>
  5949.  
  5950.  
  5951.  
  5952. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5953.  
  5954.  
  5955.  
  5956. <p>Yeah. And let&#8217;s roll right into talking to our folks from the Stanford encampment. Building on this, I want to go to our first guest from Stanford who is an undergraduate whose identity we are protecting out of security concerns, but we want to hear from our anonymous undergraduate encampment participant here, and then we&#8217;re going to hear from a faculty member as well. So can we go, and just for a couple minutes, can we hear from your perspective, our Stanford undergraduate here about what the past week has been like for you, from your eyes, what you&#8217;re seeing, what you&#8217;re feeling, and what the response from the campus community, the administration, has been?</p>
  5957.  
  5958.  
  5959.  
  5960. <p>Speaker 7:</p>
  5961.  
  5962.  
  5963.  
  5964. <p>Yeah, I mean, firstly, thank you guys so much for having us on. It&#8217;s really appreciated to have a platform to share what&#8217;s been going on. We&#8217;re nothing honestly compared to what our peers across the country, and even in Indiana, have been doing in terms of police presence. Stanford is a relatively protected campus. It&#8217;s a private university, and Stanford has been relatively adamant about maintaining their discipline and their punishment and penalty, keeping that really internal. We started our encampment Thursday afternoon after a rally that had around 800 attendees. And at that rally, we had just really began setting up an intifada wall on our lawn in the place directly across from where our former 120 day sit-in was. And after we set that up, we circled and had a lot of chants, essentially protecting the folks who were setting up encampments. Yeah, it really just picked up from there.</p>
  5965.  
  5966.  
  5967.  
  5968. <p>Within only a little short while we had hundreds more attendees, hundreds more participants, we had really been able to build this amazing base of people who were able to support us. That very night, Stanford administration came into the encampment with police and issued letters that said essentially something to the effect of, &#8220;If you don&#8217;t stop camping, you&#8217;ll be receiving Office of Community Standards violations.&#8221; That morning, or the day after, or maybe a day after that, they issued Office of Community Standards violations, which could be as much as suspension and as little as a quarter of probation. They issued those letters to about 15 people, a majority of us, Arab and Muslim, and to the others Black or Brown students that were not Arab or Muslim, and as well as some anti-Zionist Jews. But they issued those sort of arbitrarily and gave them to the folks that they assumed were in leadership of organizing.</p>
  5969.  
  5970.  
  5971.  
  5972. <p>However, since then, the camp has really grown. We&#8217;ve been able to expand and have really just been working against obviously the administration in a lot of ways. At the end of the day, what they&#8217;re trying to do is silence our ability to stand up for this. And similar to what my peers at Indiana said, what we&#8217;re experiencing is really just a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what people in Gaza are experiencing. So if anything, this feels more of our moral responsibility to act this way and take these actions, and remain steadfast.</p>
  5973.  
  5974.  
  5975.  
  5976. <p>Again, we are really not facing as much police presence or repression as our peers across the country because we are such a protected campus. But we have been facing a lot on that psychological warfare level. We&#8217;ve had administrators lurking, quite literally lurking in the shadows, taking videos and pictures of us in order to report us to the Office of Community Standards. We&#8217;ve had, very late at night, APEX security guards, who are standards private security, follow students home and take videos of them. We&#8217;ve had them do that at night as well, just trying to get our faces, trying to intimidate our safety marshals, really just doing whatever they can to derail us. But we remain, and we&#8217;ll stay here. We&#8217;ve been here since, today is one week of our encampment, and we plan to stay for the long haul.</p>
  5977.  
  5978.  
  5979.  
  5980. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  5981.  
  5982.  
  5983.  
  5984. <p>And can I just ask on that last point before we go to Professor David Palumbo-Liu, can you just say a little more about what you and your fellow students are feeling right now as you try to&#8230; I mean, again, we are protecting your identity here so folks can hear from you without your future, your enrollment, your safety, being compromised. And for folks watching, could you just say just a little bit about why that&#8217;s so important? What the kind of thoughts that are going through in your mind, the minds of other students right now who are trying to stand up for this, but who are in a position where the futures you&#8217;ve been working towards your entire lives to get to these universities and get to the next step are the things that are being threatened?</p>
  5985.  
  5986.  
  5987.  
  5988. <p>Speaker 7:</p>
  5989.  
  5990.  
  5991.  
  5992. <p>Yeah. Quite honestly, it feels a little bit silly to be in a position where I want to protect my identity in order to protect my future because we already just live in such an insane position of privilege. I mean, every university in Gaza has been destroyed. Tens of thousands of kids have had their [inaudible 00:46:52] stripped from them. And I&#8217;m already in a better position than majority of people there will ever be in. It does feel very silly to think this way. But also, the university is intentionally trying to deal with us from the inside out and trying to really knock us down and knock down our capacity and our power to organize against this genocide. I guess they need to sort of&#8230; I think the only reason that I&#8217;m personally remaining anonymous is because I am nervous about more retaliation from the university.</p>
  5993.  
  5994.  
  5995.  
  5996. <p>I&#8217;m one of the students who faced charges. Wrongfully, but did face charges. And I think we are all just in a very vulnerable position. And I think quite honestly, the administration is aware that we&#8217;re in a vulnerable position. I personally, as well as a lot of the other organizers, I do feel a lot of fear. I feel a lot of anxiety just surrounding even being near the encampment just because that will be exacerbated into such a larger issue. And at the same time, I also feel a lot of passion and community every single time I&#8217;m around. For every ounce of fear that I have or every ounce of anxiety that I have, it&#8217;s really very quickly doubled and tripled by the amount of energy and passion and excitement that I get from being around fellow organizers and being around people who believe in these just causes.</p>
  5997.  
  5998.  
  5999.  
  6000. <p>It&#8217;s an anxiety-inducing situation, but also, again, it&#8217;s a fraction of a fraction of what folks in Gaza are facing. And it is our moral responsibility. So as much as possible, we are doing our best to stay grounded not in anxiety and fear, and to know that there&#8217;s power in numbers and we protect each other.</p>
  6001.  
  6002.  
  6003.  
  6004. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6005.  
  6006.  
  6007.  
  6008. <p>Well, thank you again so much for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. We really, really appreciate it, and folks around the country desperately need to hear it. Again, right now as we speak across corporate media all week, we&#8217;ve been hearing folks talk about students, but very few talking to students. So even getting to just hear from your perspective is so invaluable, and we really, really appreciate it.</p>
  6009.  
  6010.  
  6011.  
  6012. <p>And we want to also get a faculty perspective on this. And we&#8217;re very fortunate to have Professor David Palumbo-Liu here with us who is a faculty member, has been involved in Palestine solidarity organizing for many, many years. David first, please, introduce yourself to the good livestream viewers and listeners, and tell us what it&#8217;s been looking like for you the past week as a faculty member and also as someone who, as I said, has been in this movement for a long time. How does this feel different to you?</p>
  6013.  
  6014.  
  6015.  
  6016. <p>David Palumbo-Liu:</p>
  6017.  
  6018.  
  6019.  
  6020. <p>Well, thanks for having me on, Max. It&#8217;s wonderful to see you. I wanted to say something first about the Biden quote that Mel mentioned about being disruptive. And I&#8217;m reminded of this great quote from Howard Zinn who said, &#8220;They accuse us of disturbing the peace. There is no peace, we&#8217;re disturbing the war.&#8221; So I think that reverse and much more real perspective is important to get out there. And I have to say that as you said, I&#8217;ve been involved in Palestine work for a while. I&#8217;m a member of the organizing collective of USACBI which is the US Campaign for the Cultural and Academic Boycott of Israel. And many years ago, we started an initiative called Faculty for Justice in Palestine. And it was sort of an embryonic idea, and it really laid sleeping for some time. We had maybe five chapters. And then in November, just by coincidence, two major organizations had their meetings in Montreal, and one was American Studies, and the other one was the Middle East Studies Association.</p>
  6021.  
  6022.  
  6023.  
  6024. <p>And progressive and radical faculty members from both organizations, and we knew each other quite well, set up a separate mini-conference where we wanted to discuss what we could do to help the movement. And we decided to reanimate the Faculty for Justice in Palestine and to in fact hand it over to a new group of people because we wanted to make sure it was organic, it was built from the ground up, given the capacity and the interest. And right now, we have a hundred chapters across the country. And our primary motivation right now is to support students, because students is where all the energy is coming from.</p>
  6025.  
  6026.  
  6027.  
  6028. <p>And I wanted to add this in terms of Stanford, because I think it&#8217;s such an important point to add. In the autumn, spontaneously, Stanford students started a sit-in way before anything else had happened, and they occupied The Plaza for 120 days, day and night, this was the longest-standing protest at Stanford&#8217;s history. And they stayed their day and night. Even over the winter break, they were there. And this was, I think, instrumental in essentially training the administration. The administration hasn&#8217;t been bad, and one of the reasons why it hasn&#8217;t been worse is because the students taught them what this was about. I mean, administration still is problematic, but I think the students deserve so much credit for bringing this issue not just to their fellow students and to faculty, but to the administration itself. And yes, the administration finally dismantled and there&#8217;s a long story behind how that happened. They dismantled the sit-in after 120 days.</p>
  6029.  
  6030.  
  6031.  
  6032. <p>And then Columbia happened, and what was amazing to me is students went out and built an encampment. I mean, these are people who have been sleep-deprived, had missed classes, had missed their families, had sacrificed everything. And within a few days, the encampment popped up again and has turned into a huge movement because not only are they replenishing the sit-in participants in terms of the individuals, but all sorts of other organizations on campus have chimed in.</p>
  6033.  
  6034.  
  6035.  
  6036. <p>I&#8217;ll just say one last thing. One of the most beautiful moments in the new encampment so far was that we were about to begin classes there. And we heard all this commotion and we looked up and there were all these students from the Black Student Union marching with, waving Palestinian flags, all dressed in black, but most importantly and impressively, bringing food. And they said they were inspired by the Black Panthers Free Breakfast Program, and this was how they were going to show their support to the encampment. So I really want to underscore how collaborative, how much solidarity there is, how much commitment, how much energy there is. And the students are amazing.</p>
  6037.  
  6038.  
  6039.  
  6040. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6041.  
  6042.  
  6043.  
  6044. <p>Hell yeah. Well, I know our dearly departed colleague, comrade and mentor and legendary former Black Panther, Marshall Eddie Conway is out there smiling somewhere right now on hearing that. Now, there&#8217;s so many things I want to talk to y&#8217;all about, but I know we only have a limited time left. And I want to assure our viewers that as always, we&#8217;re going to commit. The Real News is not a one-and-done network. We dig in and commit and we keep showing up and keep reporting as long as we need to. That&#8217;s why we&#8217;re still reporting on East Palestine Ohio. That&#8217;s why we&#8217;re still reporting on the genocide in Gaza. That&#8217;s why we&#8217;re still reporting on the police repression that&#8217;s happening to citizens, not just on college campuses, but all across this country. If you watch The Real News Network, you know what we&#8217;re about, and we&#8217;re going to be here trying to cover this movement as it develops.</p>
  6045.  
  6046.  
  6047.  
  6048. <p>So this will not be the last live stream that we do, nor will it be the last podcast or article that we publish. So please stay tuned for more. And again, please follow our journalists online, follow Mel Buer, follow myself, follow great journalists like Jaisal Noor, follow our Real News account for more updates in between published segments.</p>
  6049.  
  6050.  
  6051.  
  6052. <p>But I wanted to take the last round that we&#8217;ve got here before we got to let everybody go, to sort of talk about where we are headed, where things go now, and how this movement is growing and how these different encampments can or are already learning from each other and building on each other and devising strategies for dealing with hostile media, hostile administrations, police, repression. I want to just take advantage of the fact that we have folks from different encampments here who are directly in communication with each other and talk about where this goes and what folks watching and listening on campuses and off campuses can do to help.</p>
  6053.  
  6054.  
  6055.  
  6056. <p>And so I&#8217;m going to turn things back over to our folks over at Indiana University in a second. But just one point that I wanted to underline that came out in the first part of this live stream, from Mel Buer&#8217;s report from LA to what Aidan at Indiana University was talking about in terms of a BearCat; these armored cars, these armored police, these hordes of police marching into campuses. These do not come from nowhere. I remember myself as a student anti-fascist or a grad student, anti-fascist organizer at the University of Michigan years ago, when we were all part of this coalition to stop Richard Spencer and his Nazis from coming on campus. And we stood down and brawled with them at Michigan State University in 2018.</p>
  6057.  
  6058.  
  6059.  
  6060. <p>I remember standing there in Lansing on a cold winter day while we were surrounded by police facing people with Nazi tattoos all over their bodies and seeing a BearCat, an armored car with Michigan State University on the side of it. And wondering, what the hell does Michigan State University need a BearCat for? And this is what the kind of cumulative response from the police and the ruling establishment has been to protest movements of the past and what it has been to the 2020 uprisings that we saw spread across this country and across the globe.</p>
  6061.  
  6062.  
  6063.  
  6064. <p>The police do not ever want to be caught off guard like they were in 2020 again. And their response is to build Cop City. Their response is to build up and fund more the police departments that are now storming our college campuses. So we need to see this in a long historical perspective, and we need to take seriously where that path is leading. And so I want to again, turn things back over to our panelists to have the final word here to tell us where the resistance is leading, where we are going from here? And what these different encampments, what this movement can do to build mutual support within their campus communities, across campus communities, what&#8217;s already happening in that regard, what folks listening should be on the lookout for and what they can do to help? So any final words y&#8217;all got on that? Aidan, I&#8217;m going to toss it back to you, then we&#8217;ll go to Anne. So I&#8217;ll shut up and y&#8217;all just kind of hop in when you&#8217;re ready.</p>
  6065.  
  6066.  
  6067.  
  6068. <p>Aidan Khamis:</p>
  6069.  
  6070.  
  6071.  
  6072. <p>So I&#8217;ve really been thinking about this so much lately. And I think there&#8217;s two points I really want to discuss. And I think the first one refers to seeing how the state is willing to go to protect fascists, and realizing that within the context of say, business as usual, given the absence of escalation, the absence of protests and so on and so forth, there appears discursively like a contradiction between far-right fascists and facilitation from the state.</p>
  6073.  
  6074.  
  6075.  
  6076. <p>But now what essentially these encampments have done has brought that veil down, has allowed the state to reveal itself as this violent machine, that these values are not necessarily, they&#8217;re not principled by any means, but really guided by just assertion of force. And has showed that they&#8217;re not in fact contradictory, that they serve each other mutually. And especially in suppressing those who see to dismantle the genocidal structure that we have in play.</p>
  6077.  
  6078.  
  6079.  
  6080. <p>Secondly, what I think too is we&#8217;re in a very interesting liminal space, because outside again of this occupation encampment movement, the Student Intifada, there is a place to grab institutional power to act on that front while having disruptions and so on and so forth. But given the context of the encampments, given the context of schools becoming just so forceful with militarized police and so on and so forth, it&#8217;s really about holding firm in protest and causing that internal crisis.</p>
  6081.  
  6082.  
  6083.  
  6084. <p>I might have cut.</p>
  6085.  
  6086.  
  6087.  
  6088. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6089.  
  6090.  
  6091.  
  6092. <p>Yeah, Aidan, you&#8217;re cutting out just for a second.</p>
  6093.  
  6094.  
  6095.  
  6096. <p>Aidan Khamis:</p>
  6097.  
  6098.  
  6099.  
  6100. <p>Did I cut?</p>
  6101.  
  6102.  
  6103.  
  6104. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6105.  
  6106.  
  6107.  
  6108. <p>Yeah. We got you back now?</p>
  6109.  
  6110.  
  6111.  
  6112. <p>Aidan Khamis:</p>
  6113.  
  6114.  
  6115.  
  6116. <p>Yeah. Did I cut out? Yeah, can you hear me?</p>
  6117.  
  6118.  
  6119.  
  6120. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6121.  
  6122.  
  6123.  
  6124. <p>You are cutting out. Why don&#8217;t we check your connection real quick. We&#8217;re going to toss things to&#8230; Oh wait, but you seem okay now. All right, you&#8217;re back on, Aidan, go for it.</p>
  6125.  
  6126.  
  6127.  
  6128. <p>Aidan Khamis:</p>
  6129.  
  6130.  
  6131.  
  6132. <p>Okay. I should be&#8230; Am I? It&#8217;s cutting out for me again. I think going forward with Anne.</p>
  6133.  
  6134.  
  6135.  
  6136. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6137.  
  6138.  
  6139.  
  6140. <p>You&#8217;re good on this end. Go for it.</p>
  6141.  
  6142.  
  6143.  
  6144. <p>Anne:</p>
  6145.  
  6146.  
  6147.  
  6148. <p>Yeah, I can go. Yeah, I think one is we should just really continue following the lead of these student movements just in every single way that we can. We should not lose sight that the encampments are demanding justice in Palestine, an end to the genocide in Gaza. At minimum, that means for everyone in these areas, especially the students, faculty and staff, just go to these encampments and support them. There are so many layers in which our universities especially are complicit in this violence that is being done to their students just for their supposed crime of protesting genocide. I already mentioned the ways in which President Pamela Whitten and Provost Rahul Shrivastav and Vice Provost Carrie Docherty have really invited these militarized forces onto campus. You mentioned the BearCat. There was a BearCat. So absurdly Bloomington, a city with a population of like a hundred thousand has its own BearCat, but on Saturday we saw the BearCat from Indianapolis. So there were two BearCats in town.</p>
  6149.  
  6150.  
  6151.  
  6152. <p>And I mean, just thinking about how much this endangers not just our students, but the entire community, when there is a sniper on the roof of one of the tallest buildings in town, when there are riot troops with tear gas and other kinds of weaponry, that endangers all of us. Aidan mentioned, referring to the arrest, arrestees were taken away on an IU bus, and then they were taken to an IU facility, and then they were taken to the Monroe County Jail. So there are just levels of complicity in every single administrative position. And I would really urge everyone affiliated with these universities to support these encampments, physically go down if they can, and also to withdraw their consent. The graduate union has put out a call asking for everyone to withdraw from any kind of service committee they are for this administration.</p>
  6153.  
  6154.  
  6155.  
  6156. <p>Whether that&#8217;s all these bizarre committee work that faculty members are expected to do all of the time. At minimum, this administration is a lame-duck administration, our administration, that has been voted out just by the vast majority of faculty less than two weeks ago. And I would really urge just everyone who is at all involved in work at this university to withdraw their consent from enabling this university to continue doing this kind of violence to our students just because they are protesting genocide. I would just really affirm that these student movements are so inspiring, so clear-headed about their need and their political goals that I, on every single campus everywhere, I would encourage everyone in the community, especially within these universities themselves to support them.</p>
  6157.  
  6158.  
  6159.  
  6160. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6161.  
  6162.  
  6163.  
  6164. <p>And Aidan, if we got you back, any kind of final words before we toss it to folks from Stanford?</p>
  6165.  
  6166.  
  6167.  
  6168. <p>Aidan Khamis:</p>
  6169.  
  6170.  
  6171.  
  6172. <p>No, yeah, just back to what I was saying. I was saying the idea of the encampment as its own form of protest outside of generally the ways in which other organizations, SJPs, so on and so forth, have protested complicity. It&#8217;s interesting because it&#8217;s causing that internal crisis. And in that way it&#8217;s about supporting the encampment. And I think Anne put on it, and about faculty and community members, their support means furthering that. And putting the university in position where it has no other option, where its hand is forced. You can&#8217;t beg the hand to move itself. By standing firm and standing steadfast, that&#8217;s how we really accomplish it, because there&#8217;s going to be the up and downs. We have the low days where we&#8217;re just kind of left to figure things out. And that can be difficult, but it&#8217;s about really committing yourselves to that principle first and foremost, and getting people to commit to those principles.</p>
  6173.  
  6174.  
  6175.  
  6176. <p>It might be hard sometimes. Sometimes it&#8217;s hard because in these situations, a lot of our emotional tendencies come out, but remembering that this is for a larger cause, something beyond yourself, just transcending your ego. That&#8217;s what will really persevere this movement, because there&#8217;ll be ups and downs, there will be high points, there will be points like when Columbia took Hamilton Hall. And then there will be low points seeing the repression that followed. And it&#8217;s about balancing through and really sticking.</p>
  6177.  
  6178.  
  6179.  
  6180. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6181.  
  6182.  
  6183.  
  6184. <p>Oh, man. Aidan was really on a roll there, but I think that we got the near total amount of that. But I am so sorry to everyone watching and listening, we&#8217;re having a little internet connection difficulties with Aidan. But I hope that you could hear most of what he was saying just then. I want to toss things back to our anonymous undergraduate from Stanford, and ask if we could say a little more from your perspective about where this is all going, what folks on and off campus can do to get involved? And how this movement is growing or can grow and should grow as we continue into this struggle?</p>
  6185.  
  6186.  
  6187.  
  6188. <p>Speaker 7:</p>
  6189.  
  6190.  
  6191.  
  6192. <p>Yeah. I really want to echo a lot of what Aidan and Anne said. The work that we&#8217;re doing now is really just laying the groundwork for overall liberation. There cannot be Black liberation without Palestinian liberation. There cannot be Indigenous liberation without Palestinian liberations. Our struggles are all inherently interlinked. And I think one of the most important things that we&#8217;ve had to remind ourselves, really just jumping off of Aidan&#8217;s point, is this is not about us. It has never been about us and it&#8217;ll never be about us. We are people living in the heart of the American empire, and we are people who are trying our very best to really unlearn what we&#8217;ve been taught. And even at these universities, Stanford prides itself on teaching its students to think critically and providing them with the skills necessary to change the world around them.</p>
  6193.  
  6194.  
  6195.  
  6196. <p>And then we will take those skills that we&#8217;ve been taught and we&#8217;ll take the critical thinking skills that we&#8217;ve been taught and the literature and the history that we&#8217;ve learned and apply that to our world today. And then we&#8217;ll be criticized for it. And I think one of the most important things as well is just learning that every single thing that we do will inevitably be criticized. I mean, every single camp across the country, every single pro-Palestinian movement across the country, has been called anti-Semitic, has been called a slew of terrible things, whether it&#8217;s terrorists or anti-Semitic or racist or whatever it may be. And we know, realistically, that none of that is true. It&#8217;s the same way that your feminism will be accused of being anti-man, and your fight for Black liberation will be accused of reverse racism. Everybody will do their very best.</p>
  6197.  
  6198.  
  6199.  
  6200. <p>The oppressor will always find a way to appropriate, co-opt and manipulate the language of the oppressed and to claim victimhood and then to justify the violence that they&#8217;re using against the activists of our generation as self-defense. And we know very clearly and very, very obviously, that the Student Intifada is only now. Or is not starting now, and it&#8217;ll continue for years and years to come. Palestinians have been fighting this fight long before us, and they&#8217;ll be fighting this fight long after us. So it&#8217;s important that we ground ourselves really in this understanding that this is not about us, will not be about us, and people will try to poke holes in our narrative no matter how hard we try. It&#8217;s important that we remain steadfast and grounded in our morals and our disciplined values.</p>
  6201.  
  6202.  
  6203.  
  6204. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6205.  
  6206.  
  6207.  
  6208. <p>Hell yeah. Well, David, I want to toss it to you to round us out on, again, your faculty perspective there at Stanford. How is this growing? What happens now? What can folks do to get involved? And then Aidan, if your connection&#8217;s good, please do hop in right after Dave, give us your final word and we will close out. Oh, you&#8217;re muted, Dave.</p>
  6209.  
  6210.  
  6211.  
  6212. <p>David Palumbo-Liu:</p>
  6213.  
  6214.  
  6215.  
  6216. <p>So I&#8217;ll be really brief. To begin with talking about the militarization of the police. It&#8217;s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Remember that a lot of the munitions that the police have come from their army surplus from the Iraq and their Afghan war, and the conditions upon which they get them is often, &#8220;If you don&#8217;t need them, we&#8217;ll take them back.&#8221; So there&#8217;s an incentive to use them, not just symbolically, but in very real and deadly ways. And this will age me immensely in terms of your understanding. I was in college when Kent State happened, when Jackson State happened. These things are real. And I want to really underscore how this is so dangerous and we need to keep on top of it and really be active about pressing back on it.</p>
  6217.  
  6218.  
  6219.  
  6220. <p>Second point, do you know that the house just passed the IHRA definition, right? That equates any criticism of the state of Israel with anti-Semitism. And that&#8217;s going to be an incredibly powerful tool for&#8230; I mean, it already is, but now that it has the US government sanctioning it, it&#8217;s going to become even worse. So I think going forward, we really have to develop other tactics or add other tactics onto our inventory of things that we can do because we&#8217;re going to be much more strategic about how we act on campus.</p>
  6221.  
  6222.  
  6223.  
  6224. <p>Third point, I have a love-hate relationship with the university. I recommend you all reading Robin D. G. Kelley&#8217;s letter to the president of Columbia that came out in Boston Review, in which he correctly says she just threw the entire university under the bus. It wasn&#8217;t just students, it wasn&#8217;t just faculty. The very idea of the university was completely tossed over to the right-wing. And the right-wing is after not only Palestine, although primarily Palestine now, but any kind of independence the university might have.</p>
  6225.  
  6226.  
  6227.  
  6228. <p>So in that regard, I think we have to be both defenders of the university, but I also think we shouldn&#8217;t fetishize the university. There are all sorts of other learning spaces that we can create and maintain that are not dependent on the approval of the university. And I think we should really stay strong in developing those spaces. Other tactics, this is going to be a challenging, challenging world. We have a presidential election coming in. We might very well have a full-blown fascist coming into office. So we need to lean on each other even more. And the Palestinians have shown us again and again how that resolve is absolutely necessary.</p>
  6229.  
  6230.  
  6231.  
  6232. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6233.  
  6234.  
  6235.  
  6236. <p>Hell yeah. Aidan, we got you back for final word.</p>
  6237.  
  6238.  
  6239.  
  6240. <p>Aidan Khamis:</p>
  6241.  
  6242.  
  6243.  
  6244. <p>Yeah, can you hear me?</p>
  6245.  
  6246.  
  6247.  
  6248. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6249.  
  6250.  
  6251.  
  6252. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  6253.  
  6254.  
  6255.  
  6256. <p>Aidan Khamis:</p>
  6257.  
  6258.  
  6259.  
  6260. <p>Yeah, and so I think just echoing what everyone has said. My final point was, what I was trying to get to, is really, and I think about this and I might add a little religious touch as a Muslim, because especially I can&#8217;t deny it, with this being about Palestine, but I asked and I contemplated myself, what does it mean? This period we&#8217;re going through with such difficulty in face of brutalization and highs and lows, and how do we navigate all that? And it&#8217;s really through submission. That&#8217;s the word of Islam, submitting to Allah. And this submission, this steadfastness, this faith in principle is ultimately what will have us persevere. And I think everyone has said that today, no matter the way, no matter how, it&#8217;s that core, that essence that is guiding us, and that will prevail and that will make us victorious. And I think that&#8217;s something we can all think about and agree about and hope to continue.</p>
  6261.  
  6262.  
  6263.  
  6264. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6265.  
  6266.  
  6267.  
  6268. <p>All right, folks, that&#8217;s going to do it for this Student Intifada livestream here at The Real News Network. I cannot thank our guests enough for giving us their time and for taking this past hour to share with us their on-the-ground perspective. Again, this will not be the last time that we are covering the Student Intifada movement, the encampments, the fight. As we&#8217;ve been covering for months and months and months to end the genocidal war on Gaza, we are going to continue to report on the ground. So again, thank you to my colleagues, Mel Buer, Ju-Hyun Park, Jaisal Noor, everyone here at The Real News who is hustling their butts off to try to give folks the news that they are not getting on piece-of-shit channels like CNN with folks like Anderson Cooper. But we won&#8217;t get into that. Now, if you want the real story from the grassroots of struggle, you come to The Real News and we&#8217;re going to keep delivering for you.</p>
  6269.  
  6270.  
  6271.  
  6272. <p>So again, I want to thank our guests for joining us today. I want to thank our correspondents for all their hard work. I want to thank everyone in the studio booth right now for all your help in putting this together. And of course, I want to thank you all out there for watching, for listening, and for caring. For The Real News Network, this is Maximillian Alvarez signing off. Again, before you go, please head over to therealnews.com/donate. Become a supporter of our work so we can keep bringing you important coverage and conversations just like this. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other, solidarity forever.</p>
  6273.  
  6274.  
  6275.  
  6276. <p>David Palumbo-Liu:</p>
  6277.  
  6278.  
  6279.  
  6280. <p>Thank you.</p>
  6281.  
  6282.  
  6283.  
  6284. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  6285.  
  6286.  
  6287.  
  6288. <p>Thank you so much for watching The Real News Network, where we lift up the voices, stories and struggles that you care about most. And we need your help to keep doing this work, so please tap your screen now, subscribe and donate to The Real News Network. Solidarity forever.</p>
  6289. ]]></content:encoded>
  6293. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312957</post-id> </item>
  6294. <item>
  6295. <title>Former A&#8217;s catcher Bruce Maxwell opens up on the Oakland A&#8217;s betrayal</title>
  6296. <link>https://therealnews.com/bruce-maxwell-opens-up-on-the-oakland-as-betrayal</link>
  6298. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Zirin]]></dc:creator>
  6299. <pubDate>Thu, 02 May 2024 18:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
  6300. <category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
  6301. <category><![CDATA[Edge of Sports TV]]></category>
  6302. <category><![CDATA[The Cultural Front]]></category>
  6303. <category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
  6304. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312926</guid>
  6305.  
  6306. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="731" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C731&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Bruce Maxwell of the Oakland Athletics in action against the New York Yankees at Yankee Stadium on May 12, 2018. Photo by Jim McIsaac/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C214&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C731&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C548&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1096&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1462&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C856&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1119&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1427&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C285&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C731&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The former MLB catcher has some choice words of his own about Oakland A's owner John Fisher's decision to move the team to Las Vegas.]]></description>
  6307. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="731" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C731&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Bruce Maxwell of the Oakland Athletics in action against the New York Yankees at Yankee Stadium on May 12, 2018. Photo by Jim McIsaac/Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C214&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C731&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C548&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1096&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1462&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C856&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1119&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1427&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C285&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/GettyImages-958052054-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C731&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  6308. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  6309. <iframe title="Former A&#039;s Bruce Maxwell calls out Oakland A&#039;s owner John Fisher for Vegas move | Edge of Sports" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DhfsRifNios?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  6310. </div></figure>
  6311.  
  6312.  
  6313.  
  6314. <p class="has-drop-cap">After more than 50 years, the Oakland A&#8217;s announced their departure from the city last year, leaving Oakland bereft of its sports teams after the flight of the Warriors in 2019 and the Raiders in 2020. To the dismay of fans, the A&#8217;s plan to temporarily relocate to a minor league stadium in Sacramento before permanently moving to Las Vegas in the 2028 season. Former A&#8217;s catcher <a href="https://www.instagram.com/bruce.maxwell8/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Bruce Maxwell</a> joins&nbsp;<em>Edge of Sports</em>&nbsp;to discuss the move, its impact on the local community and workers, and the trajectory of his own career and the place of the A&#8217;s in his life story.</p>
  6315.  
  6316.  
  6317.  
  6318. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  6319. <p>Studio Production: David Hebden<br>Post-Production: Taylor Hebden<br>Audio Post-Production: David Hebden<br>Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino<br>Music by: Eze Jackson &amp; Carlos Guillen</p>
  6320. </blockquote>
  6321.  
  6322.  
  6323.  
  6324. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />
  6325.  
  6326.  
  6327.  
  6328. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  6329.  
  6330.  
  6331.  
  6332. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Welcome to <em>Edge of Sports</em>, the TV show only on The Real News Network. I&#8217;m Dave Zirin.</p>
  6333.  
  6334.  
  6335.  
  6336. <p>We are talking baseball right now with former Oakland A&#8217;s and current Mexican League catcher Bruce Maxwell. If that name rings a bell, it might be because Maxwell was the first Major League Baseball player to take a knee during the National Anthem in protest of racist police violence.</p>
  6337.  
  6338.  
  6339.  
  6340. <p>We&#8217;ll be speaking to Maxwell about the Oakland A&#8217;s temporary move next year to a Minor League ballpark in Sacramento and their 2028 move to Las Vegas — In other words, the death of baseball in Oakland. Let&#8217;s speak with him now.</p>
  6341.  
  6342.  
  6343.  
  6344. <p>Bruce Maxwell, thank you so much for joining us here on <em>Edge of Sports TV</em>.</p>
  6345.  
  6346.  
  6347.  
  6348. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>Hey, good to see you, Dave. I appreciate the invite.</p>
  6349.  
  6350.  
  6351.  
  6352. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Oh man, there&#8217;s so much I want to talk to you about. But before we talk Oakland baseball, can you give my listeners and my viewers a sense of where you are right now and what your baseball life is like?</p>
  6353.  
  6354.  
  6355.  
  6356. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>Well, I&#8217;m currently in Monterrey, Mexico, at Monterrey Nuevo León. I&#8217;m now coaching with the Toros de Tijuana, it&#8217;s another team in the Mexican League Baseball, this summer.&nbsp;</p>
  6357.  
  6358.  
  6359.  
  6360. <p>Quick turnaround for me; I was just a player last week for a different team, and things didn&#8217;t work out so well. They didn&#8217;t see me in their future plan, so they sent me home. And as I was headed home, the GM for this team, who I know very well, he called me and offered me a coaching job.&nbsp;</p>
  6361.  
  6362.  
  6363.  
  6364. <p>So now I&#8217;m here in Monterrey, preparing for Opening Day tonight against the Sultanes in Monterrey, and continuing my love for the game, man.</p>
  6365.  
  6366.  
  6367.  
  6368. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Amazing. It&#8217;s certainly a love I share. No matter how much the people who are in charge of the game try to mess it up, somehow the game is still the game.</p>
  6369.  
  6370.  
  6371.  
  6372. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>Exactly, exactly.</p>
  6373.  
  6374.  
  6375.  
  6376. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Wow. So before we talk about Oakland baseball, I did an intro where I spoke about your incredible history where you kneeled during the anthem in such a conservative sport that is baseball. I just wanted to give you the chance to speak on it. Why did you take that move? Why did you kneel during the anthem?</p>
  6377.  
  6378.  
  6379.  
  6380. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>When it comes to that, man, these things are very important. That&#8217;s a bigger-than-baseball stance that I took.</p>
  6381.  
  6382.  
  6383.  
  6384. <p>Growing up where I grew up in Alabama, being biracial, me and my sister being very athletic, we grew up in similar circumstances to those of which can&#8217;t have their voices be heard. The racial profiling, the unfair treatment because of skin color. And with my sister and I, we actually got bad things from both sides of our race because we weren&#8217;t enough of one or we&#8217;re too much of the other.</p>
  6385.  
  6386.  
  6387.  
  6388. <p>So it was difficult, especially me being the male. It was difficult for me growing up and being the only Black player on my team literally almost my whole life. I think my junior year of college, I had a freshman who was a young African American kid.&nbsp;</p>
  6389.  
  6390.  
  6391.  
  6392. <p>And then in pro ball, they&#8217;re very scattered. Most of the guys when you turn on the TV that you see that are darker-skinned or whatever, most of them are Latin guys. And so as the numbers have decreased since&#8230; Hell, in the last 30, 40 years, the significant decrease is something that&#8217;s important.</p>
  6393.  
  6394.  
  6395.  
  6396. <p>But also in our country, a lot of people don&#8217;t understand because they&#8217;re not in areas or they&#8217;re not affected by it. And we live in a society where if it doesn&#8217;t bother your life, it doesn&#8217;t really matter.</p>
  6397.  
  6398.  
  6399.  
  6400. <p>And I think as athletes, no matter what sport you play, I feel like our job is to speak up for the ones who can&#8217;t speak or can&#8217;t be heard because their platform and their influence is not big enough. We put athletes on a higher pedestal than the president of the United States in this country.</p>
  6401.  
  6402.  
  6403.  
  6404. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Yeah.</p>
  6405.  
  6406.  
  6407.  
  6408. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>And as those influences, as those ballplayers, I feel like it&#8217;s our duty to also stand up for the regular people, the little people that we once were in life. It&#8217;s much bigger than the game. It&#8217;s much bigger than my salary. It was much bigger than the hate that I received and the problems thereafter.</p>
  6409.  
  6410.  
  6411.  
  6412. <p>But I still work in that space. I still tend to Latin and African American ballplayers as young men, as ballplayers. I work with kids here in Mexico because I speak the language. I have guys that I work with that are Dominican. I have a couple Cuban kids, then I have also African Americans and other youth in the United States. So I still live in my truth. I still stand for what&#8217;s right, and it&#8217;s how my parents raised me.</p>
  6413.  
  6414.  
  6415.  
  6416. <p>No matter how difficult it may be or no matter the consequences, you have to have a strong sense of character. And even though you might be the only one standing for what&#8217;s right, that means a whole lot more than moving with the crowd.</p>
  6417.  
  6418.  
  6419.  
  6420. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Yeah, let&#8217;s talk about consequences. Because I&#8217;ve always been of the belief that you paid a price for it in terms of your career in Major League Baseball — Feel free to agree or disagree with that. Do you think that&#8217;s been one of the consequences?</p>
  6421.  
  6422.  
  6423.  
  6424. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>Yeah, I agree 100%. I definitely agree. Like you said, it&#8217;s a very conservative sport. And again, it&#8217;s kind of the whole reason I&#8217;m down here in Mexico playing. At the time, I was very, very solid with my analytics and my numbers defensively. I was a very solid catcher in the big leagues. And after that, it changed how people saw me. It was no longer about my play; I could go out and play very well, and it really didn&#8217;t matter.&nbsp;</p>
  6425.  
  6426.  
  6427.  
  6428. <p>And it happened with the Mets when I went back in 2020, 2021. I was playing well. I was doing well, but I just wasn&#8217;t getting the opportunities to really play. And they had no intentions of taking me to the big leagues or giving me a shot back in the big leagues. I was just kind of there as a just-in-case.</p>
  6429.  
  6430.  
  6431.  
  6432. <p>And therefore I was like, all right, well, if I&#8217;m going to play, then I want to go somewhere where I actually play and I can contribute. And so I came back down here where I&#8217;m respected. I&#8217;ve played a whole lot, and I&#8217;ve got some championships down here to prove it.</p>
  6433.  
  6434.  
  6435.  
  6436. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Wow. It is a damning comment on Major League Baseball, especially the way they bathe themselves in the memory of people like Jackie Robinson and Roberto Clemente, that they&#8217;ve treated you in such a way.</p>
  6437.  
  6438.  
  6439.  
  6440. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>Yeah.</p>
  6441.  
  6442.  
  6443.  
  6444. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>And I just wanted to say that.</p>
  6445.  
  6446.  
  6447.  
  6448. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>Yeah, it&#8217;s tough to see. Because you don&#8217;t see a whole lot of difference being made, outside of going to cities and giving out free stuff and maybe appearing a time or two or whatever. But the game is still the same. They still frown upon it, and the environment makes it tough for people of the minority to really speak their minds and stand up for what they actually truly believe in because they&#8217;re in fear of consequences.</p>
  6449.  
  6450.  
  6451.  
  6452. <p>So it&#8217;s a tough world, man. But slowly, I feel like if you want to really make a change, you first have to put yourself in that environment of change and change it from the ground up. And that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m trying to do.</p>
  6453.  
  6454.  
  6455.  
  6456. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Wow. I&#8217;m going to put some church organ music behind you with that last answer. That was beautiful.</p>
  6457.  
  6458.  
  6459.  
  6460. <p>Yo, so I want to talk to you about the Oakland A&#8217;s, their move to Sacramento, and then their subsequent move that&#8217;s coming up in 2028 to Las Vegas. You&#8217;re the person I wanted to ask this: What was your impression, when you played for the A&#8217;s, of Oakland as a baseball town?</p>
  6461.  
  6462.  
  6463.  
  6464. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>It was incredible, the environment. I&#8217;m a big history buff when it comes to baseball. My dad&#8217;s favorite team was the Oakland A&#8217;s, and my dad&#8217;s from Indiana.&nbsp;</p>
  6465.  
  6466.  
  6467.  
  6468. <p>It&#8217;s just with that team, its history. It&#8217;s one of the oldest organizations in baseball. The players that have come through there, the winning environment, what they&#8217;ve done for the City of Oakland itself, it&#8217;s really given the community a staple in a sports team. And that&#8217;s something that you cannot allow to leave. You cannot allow that to move to another area.</p>
  6469.  
  6470.  
  6471.  
  6472. <p>Because now you&#8217;re turning Oakland into almost like a wasteland when it comes to sports. They lost the Warriors, the Raiders moved, this, that, and the other. But I feel like the Oakland A&#8217;s have been more of a pillar of the community than either one of those teams. It&#8217;s upsetting.</p>
  6473.  
  6474.  
  6475.  
  6476. <p>And honestly, it&#8217;s bothersome to see that being allowed to happen. It&#8217;s like taking the Cubs out of Chicago. It&#8217;s like taking the Dodgers out of LA. It can&#8217;t happen. It can&#8217;t happen. So it&#8217;s devastating to see their moves, and the fact that they&#8217;re allowing it to happen because of greed, and because of the lack of stature when it comes to the City of Oakland.</p>
  6477.  
  6478.  
  6479.  
  6480. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>What does this say about John Fisher, the owner of the team? He inherited all the money from Gap clothing. That&#8217;s where his $3.3 billion comes from — That&#8217;s his net worth. What does it say about John Fisher that he&#8217;s so willing to remove the team from Oakland when he clearly has the financial means to keep them there as long as he wants to?</p>
  6481.  
  6482.  
  6483.  
  6484. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>It just says that he&#8217;s selfish, and it&#8217;s about as clear as I can be with that. It&#8217;s the fact that the fans in the City of Oakland have seen him gouge our prospects and our players over the years. And then the Oakland A&#8217;s fans have still been loyal and stayed loyal while watching their very players be All-Stars and important players for other teams.</p>
  6485.  
  6486.  
  6487.  
  6488. <p>The fact that he has the financial means to move the team but not the financial means to upgrade the stadium, to upgrade the locker rooms, the field itself, to put more money into the contracts of players, to keep fans coming and wanting to support the Oakland A&#8217;s. The fans took a stand, and I would too in that situation, especially, again, for such a historical team.</p>
  6489.  
  6490.  
  6491.  
  6492. <p>These people in Oakland, man, they grow up and teach their kids the love of the Oakland A&#8217;s. Even to this day, it&#8217;s a culture up there. It&#8217;s not just another team. And I think with John Fisher, he doesn&#8217;t care at the end of the day.</p>
  6493.  
  6494.  
  6495.  
  6496. <p>He doesn&#8217;t care about the workers who&#8217;ve been working there for 40 years. He doesn&#8217;t care about the kids and the grandparents and the great-grandparents that have been coming to Oakland A&#8217;s games, that have had season tickets for 40 years. He doesn&#8217;t care about that. He wants new and shiny things.&nbsp;</p>
  6497.  
  6498.  
  6499.  
  6500. <p>But he could easily have made those shiny things in Oakland. He just didn&#8217;t want to be there. And for him to be able to move the team without batting an eye, it&#8217;s disappointing and it&#8217;s upsetting for the people of Oakland, but also for a lot of us that&#8230; I can&#8217;t speak for everybody else, but it saddens me.&nbsp;</p>
  6501.  
  6502.  
  6503.  
  6504. <p>I played seven years with that organization, and the whole time it was history. You have Rickey Henderson, Dave Stewart, Vida Blue, all these guys coming in to spring training, working with the kids. So [inaudible] right? All of that is because of the Oakland A&#8217;s.</p>
  6505.  
  6506.  
  6507.  
  6508. <p>It&#8217;s not because, oh, they&#8217;re just big leaguers. No, they spend a good chunk of their careers playing for this team, winning for this team, and it&#8217;s part of their lives. So to see it be uprooted to a new place for whatever the reason may be, it&#8217;s bothersome.</p>
  6509.  
  6510.  
  6511.  
  6512. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>I&#8217;m really glad you mentioned the stadium workers, because as awful as it is to move the team, there have been some articles about how generations of people have worked for that team. And Fisher&#8217;s disregard for them is just another mark against him to me, as somebody who cares about the sport. I mean, clearly he does not.</p>
  6513.  
  6514.  
  6515.  
  6516. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>He doesn&#8217;t. I went back this off season. I was coaching kids with a couple of my former teammates in Palo Alto. And when I got there, I went to an A&#8217;s game within about a week, just go see my coaches and things. Because when I was there, the coaches are the same — Minus Bob Melvin, but they&#8217;re the same.&nbsp;</p>
  6517.  
  6518.  
  6519.  
  6520. <p>And I walked up in the players area, and same security guards. They gave me a big old hug. They were like, great to see you. It&#8217;s been forever. Mind you, I haven&#8217;t been in the big leagues since 2018. I don&#8217;t remember their names, but 100% they remember me: the people that man the parking lot, the people that check you before you go into the locker room, the people on the field, the grounds crew. I spent most of my time talking to all those people, because those are the people that make the difference in our days every day.</p>
  6521.  
  6522.  
  6523.  
  6524. <p>And so for him to be able to uproot that team and put all of those people out of a job willingly, it&#8217;s upsetting and it&#8217;s cruel. At the end of the day, it&#8217;s cruel.</p>
  6525.  
  6526.  
  6527.  
  6528. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>It is cruel. You know the area well. What are your opinions about the fact that, until 2028, they&#8217;re going to be playing in a Minor League park in Sacramento? People watching in lawn chairs, God bless them.</p>
  6529.  
  6530.  
  6531.  
  6532. <p>Also, they&#8217;re not going to be known as the Sacramento A&#8217;s or the Oakland A&#8217;s. They&#8217;re taking the city&#8217;s name off of it, and just they&#8217;re going to go by the A&#8217;s, which to me just feels like a wretched scrawling on the history of Major League Baseball. But please, your thoughts.</p>
  6533.  
  6534.  
  6535.  
  6536. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>It is. It very much so is. Because without Oakland, there would be no A&#8217;s, period.</p>
  6537.  
  6538.  
  6539.  
  6540. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Right.</p>
  6541.  
  6542.  
  6543.  
  6544. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>You can&#8217;t carry that name if you&#8217;re going to move the team. And so they&#8217;re going to move to Sacramento. Sacramento is&#8230; When it comes to big league protocol, it&#8217;s not even close.</p>
  6545.  
  6546.  
  6547.  
  6548. <p>So instead of putting money into the stadium you already have that holds history with Rickey Henderson, Dave Stewart on the mountaintop, all these things, you&#8217;re going to go out and have to shell out even more money potentially to renovate that stadium to make it “big league protocol”.</p>
  6549.  
  6550.  
  6551.  
  6552. <p>And you&#8217;re in Sacramento. It&#8217;s not a Major League park. Even when you renovate it, it&#8217;s not going to be a Major League park. So you&#8217;re basically downgrading your big league team even more than it was already in Oakland.</p>
  6553.  
  6554.  
  6555.  
  6556. <p>Because I&#8217;ve heard from a lot of players over my years, they call the Oakland A&#8217;s were four-A and everybody else is in the big leagues because of the stadium, because of the locker rooms, because of the field, because of the dugouts, because they feel like they&#8217;re not playing in a big league ballpark.</p>
  6557.  
  6558.  
  6559.  
  6560. <p>And so you&#8217;re more than willing to put in all this money to renovate Sacramento Stadium and then go get a new one in Vegas but you can&#8217;t put the same energy and effort into preserving the historic team in the very city that made it what it is today.</p>
  6561.  
  6562.  
  6563.  
  6564. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Wow. This is a question that I think you are uniquely positioned to answer. We&#8217;ve already touched on it a little bit. But we&#8217;ve seen some players be public in their disgust with the move, and they&#8217;ve been punished.</p>
  6565.  
  6566.  
  6567.  
  6568. <p>One player sent to the minors, another player who is the sole All-Star on the team sent to the bench just because they wore little macrame bracelets in solidarity with a group that wants to keep the team in Oakland.</p>
  6569.  
  6570.  
  6571.  
  6572. <p>Why can&#8217;t baseball just allow some free thinking among players? Why is that so terrible?</p>
  6573.  
  6574.  
  6575.  
  6576. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>Because there is no free thinking. Major League Baseball is always and will forever be a very controlled sport. We&#8217;re expendable. And the fact that we have a gigantic Minor League system, we have a draft every single year, it makes players expendable. So nobody really wants to share their true thoughts because their job&#8217;s on the line.</p>
  6577.  
  6578.  
  6579.  
  6580. <p>And when you play for organizations like Oakland where they&#8217;re very nitpicky about what you say and how you say it, this, that, and the other, it&#8217;s very difficult for you to really get people&#8217;s true thoughts about what&#8217;s going on.</p>
  6581.  
  6582.  
  6583.  
  6584. <p>You have a kid, Ruiz, who got sent down, and they gave him some things to work on for him to get back in the starting lineup. But he was hitting .430 when they sent him down in the big leagues after also setting the rookie record for stolen bases last year and hitting about .280. All because of a bracelet.</p>
  6585.  
  6586.  
  6587.  
  6588. <p>I feel like when you play for a team, especially in the big leagues on a stage like that, it&#8217;s our job as players to engage and to stand with our community outside of the ballpark. It&#8217;s a very, very bad move.<strong> </strong>It makes Oakland look like a joke. It makes the city look like a joke, makes the whole organization as a whole be frowned upon. Because something as simple as that, wanting to stand for keeping the team in this very historical spot is subject to you losing your job.</p>
  6589.  
  6590.  
  6591.  
  6592. <p>It&#8217;s a pretty tough take, and I think it&#8217;s very immature. I think it&#8217;s very selfish. And that just goes to show how much John Fisher and our front office don&#8217;t care about the freedom of free thinking and what our players actually really think and feel on that field.</p>
  6593.  
  6594.  
  6595.  
  6596. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>Wow. I got one more question for you, Bruce, but before I ask, is there anything else you&#8217;d like to say about the Oakland A&#8217;s, the move, your experience, anything else?</p>
  6597.  
  6598.  
  6599.  
  6600. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>I feel bad for the fans. I know I&#8217;m no longer in uniform, but I just want to say to them, I love all of you. I&#8217;ve had some of my best times and met some of my best friends in the seven years I was representing the green and gold.</p>
  6601.  
  6602.  
  6603.  
  6604. <p>I lost one of my dearest friends two years ago. She passed away. I met her in spring training. She used to talk to my mom, she used to talk to my father. And I&#8217;ve had some great meaningful experiences and relationships come out of my time in Oakland. And I truly feel sorry for the city because I know that this move has broken a lot of hearts, it&#8217;s broken a lot of spirits, when all people have ever done in that area has grow up and be A&#8217;s fans.</p>
  6605.  
  6606.  
  6607.  
  6608. <p>So from my heart to theirs, I love all of you. I feel for you. And everybody that&#8217;s ever put on that uniform is affected by this change.</p>
  6609.  
  6610.  
  6611.  
  6612. <p><strong>Dave Zirin:&nbsp; </strong>You know what? That&#8217;s where we need to end it. Bruce Maxwell, thank you so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports.</p>
  6613.  
  6614.  
  6615.  
  6616. <p><strong>Bruce Maxwell:&nbsp; </strong>Yeah. And always a pleasure talking to you.</p>
  6617.  
  6618.  
  6619.  
  6620. <p><strong>Maximillian Alvarez:&nbsp; </strong>Thank you so much for watching The Real News Network, where we lift up the voices, stories, and struggles that you care about most. And we need your help to keep doing this work. So please tap your screen now, subscribe, and donate to The Real News Network. Solidarity Forever.</p>
  6621. ]]></content:encoded>
  6625. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312926</post-id> </item>
  6626. <item>
  6627. <title>An ethics expert says Sinclair Broadcasting should disclose its business conflicts with Baltimore. I was part of the problem.</title>
  6628. <link>https://therealnews.com/ethics-expert-sinclair-broadcasting-disclose-business-conflicts-baltimore</link>
  6630. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen Janis]]></dc:creator>
  6631. <pubDate>Thu, 02 May 2024 16:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
  6632. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  6633. <category><![CDATA[Baltimore]]></category>
  6634. <category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
  6635. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  6636. <category><![CDATA[Tax Broke]]></category>
  6637. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312441</guid>
  6638.  
  6639. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="873" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?fit=1024%2C873&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="The headquarters of the Sinclair Broadcast Group is shown April 3, 2018, in Hunt Valley, Maryland." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?w=2005&amp;ssl=1 2005w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=300%2C256&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=1024%2C873&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=768%2C655&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=1536%2C1310&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=1200%2C1023&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=1568%2C1337&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=2000%2C1706&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=400%2C341&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?fit=1024%2C873&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>The broadcast media giant has been unrelenting with its reporting on Baltimore’s problems and miscues; at the same time, Sinclair has failed to disclose its own ties to the city government and the generous tax breaks it's received.]]></description>
  6640. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="873" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?fit=1024%2C873&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="The headquarters of the Sinclair Broadcast Group is shown April 3, 2018, in Hunt Valley, Maryland." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?w=2005&amp;ssl=1 2005w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=300%2C256&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=1024%2C873&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=768%2C655&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=1536%2C1310&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=1200%2C1023&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=1568%2C1337&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=2000%2C1706&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?resize=400%2C341&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-941498830-scaled-e1714665997876.jpg?fit=1024%2C873&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  6641. <p class="has-drop-cap">The barrage of bad news from Baltimore&#8217;s Fox 45 local newscast is as consistent as it is dismal.</p>
  6642.  
  6643.  
  6644.  
  6645. <p>Nightly, the local Fox affiliate churns out stories on teen carjackings, students who can&#8217;t read, and smashed car windows outside police headquarters, all fodder for an ongoing series with titles like &#8220;City in Crisis,&#8221; and &#8220;Project Baltimore.&#8221; The reporting demands transparency from a government often portrayed as hesitant to oblige. It has also been showered with awards and acclaim for its hard-nosed approach to municipal accountability reporting.</p>
  6646.  
  6647.  
  6648.  
  6649. <p>However, there is one aspect of the city government&#8217;s alleged penchant for secrecy and dysfunction that the station has generally avoided: the lucrative partnership between the owners of Fox 45, their immediate family members, and City Hall, a partnership made manifest in the generous tax breaks afforded to the glitzy downtown development called&nbsp;<a href="https://therealnews.com/baltimore-touts-equality-so-why-did-it-lavish-tens-of-millions-in-tax-breaks-on-a-single-development-harbor-east" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Harbor East</a>.</p>
  6650.  
  6651.  
  6652.  
  6653. <p>As we previously reported, Harbor East is a taxpayer-bolstered urban oasis: a 20-acre upscale entertainment district that has benefited from tens of millions of dollars in tax breaks, subsidies, and infrastructure spending by city taxpayers. The full price tag has remained secret—until now.</p>
  6654.  
  6655.  
  6656.  
  6657. <p>Even more opaque is the role that the beneficiaries of this communal largesse play in Baltimore&#8217;s media ecosystem—a connection that starts with two of Baltimore’s most powerful families, whose interests in both Fox 45 and Harbor East are intertwined through real estate holdings, restaurants, and other businesses financed, in part, by City Hall.</p>
  6658.  
  6659.  
  6660.  
  6661. <p>The nexus of this overlapping relationship is the aforementioned high-rise development astride Baltimore&#8217;s gleaming Inner Harbor. It&#8217;s there, along those cobblestone streets, that the Paterakis family, renowned for their sprawling Fells Point bakery, and the Smiths, who control Sinclair, have collectively invested heavily in one of Baltimore&#8217;s swankiest neighborhoods. And it&#8217;s an investment that has benefited from a breathtaking array of tax credits and subsidies.</p>
  6662.  
  6663.  
  6664.  
  6665. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-dots"/>
  6666.  
  6667.  
  6668.  
  6669. <p>Harbor East was the brainchild of John Paterakis Sr., the successful entrepreneur who actually built the baking business from a single row home into an expansive industrial food giant. In 1990, he brokered a deal with the city that laid out an ambitious plan to turn a dusty parking lot into a waterfront palisade.</p>
  6670.  
  6671.  
  6672.  
  6673. <p>Paterakis&#8217; daughter, Vanessa Paterakis Smith, is married to Frederick Smith, one of four Smith brothers, who collectively own the vast majority of Sinclair Class B stock and, thus, control the local broadcasting giant. The 1990 agreement lists her as one of the beneficiaries of the eventual buildout, which specifically names “the children and grandchildren” of John Paterakis as parties to the initial deal.&nbsp;</p>
  6674.  
  6675.  
  6676.  
  6677. <p>But the ties don&#8217;t end there.</p>
  6678.  
  6679.  
  6680.  
  6681. <p>The Atlas Group, the restaurant juggernaut owned by John Paterakis Sr.&#8217;s grandson Alex Smith, operates roughly 10 locations within the boundaries of Harbor East. Among them are four eateries in the ritzy Four Seasons Hotel, which, incidentally, received $10.8 million in tax breaks from a Brownfields remediation program.</p>
  6682.  
  6683.  
  6684.  
  6685. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote><p>The ties formed and benefits accrued through the Harbor East development, for the most part, remain hidden from Fox 45 viewers.</p></blockquote></figure>
  6686.  
  6687.  
  6688.  
  6689. <p>In fact, a recent front-page story in the <em>Baltimore Sun</em> hyping the grand opening of yet another Atlas-run Harbor East restaurant, The Ruxton, revealed that Sinclair&#8217;s chairman, David Smith, is an investor in Atlas. David Smith is also the new owner of the <em>Baltimore Sun</em>, which he purchased in February from the private equity firm Alden Capital for an undisclosed sum.</p>
  6690.  
  6691.  
  6692.  
  6693. <p>All of this, ironically, makes the story of Harbor East a prime candidate for Fox 45&#8217;s accountability reporting: a wealthy developer and his family benefiting from lucrative deals with the Baltimore government to build a shiny city on the harbor without requisite transparency. Nevertheless, the ties formed and benefits accrued through the Harbor East development, for the most part, remain hidden from Fox 45 viewers.</p>
  6694.  
  6695.  
  6696.  
  6697. <p>&nbsp;It’s an oversight some media ethicists say runs afoul of the requirements that journalists must disclose material conflicts with the subject—in this case, the city—they cover.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  6698.  
  6699.  
  6700.  
  6701. <p>&#8220;The station owes its audience some transparency about its business conflicts of interest,&#8221; Kelly McBride, the chair of the Craig Newmark Center for Ethics and Leadership at the Poynter Institute, told TRNN.</p>
  6702.  
  6703.  
  6704.  
  6705. <p>&#8220;And clearly, when the story is directly related to a conflict, disclosure is in order.&#8221;</p>
  6706.  
  6707.  
  6708.  
  6709. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-a-taxpayer-bolstered-paradise"><strong>A taxpayer-bolstered paradise</strong></h2>
  6710.  
  6711.  
  6712.  
  6713. <p>As our investigation of Harbor East uncovered, the 20-acre site, home to a dazzling entertainment district, relies heavily on tax breaks to operate. Between 2012 and 2022, the development was granted roughly $115 million in direct tax abatements, making it one of the most-subsidized developments in the city.</p>
  6714.  
  6715.  
  6716.  
  6717. <p>Yet that number covers just a decade of incentives that, in some cases, were already in effect in the early 2000s. It also excludes many other less direct forms of assistance outlined in the 1990 agreement between the developers of Harbor East and the city.</p>
  6718.  
  6719.  
  6720.  
  6721. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote><p>Between 2012 and 2022, the [Harbor East] development was granted roughly $115 million in direct tax abatements, making it one of the most-subsidized developments in the city.</p></blockquote></figure>
  6722.  
  6723.  
  6724.  
  6725. <p>That agreement reveals that the buildout of the waterfront included a variety of additional contributions from the city; namely, a marina, bulkheads, and an interest-free mortgage to finance the purchase of land the city owned before Paterakis made the deal.&nbsp;</p>
  6726.  
  6727.  
  6728.  
  6729. <p>The subsidies have paid off handsomely. In 2022, the Marriott Waterfront Hotel was sold for roughly $130 million by an LLC controlled by the Paterakis family. The hotel was the beneficiary of a 25-year payment in lieu of taxes (PILOT) agreement, which abated $57 million in taxes. In 2018, the family sold the former Legg Mason building for $300 million. That property also garnered tens of millions in tax breaks in a lucrative deal the city has refused to release the details of, with the courts rebuffing a lawsuit from the nonprofit Abell Foundation seeking information about how the original development was financed.&nbsp;</p>
  6730.  
  6731.  
  6732.  
  6733. <p>We reached out to Sinclair for comment to ask why this information had not been disclosed to viewers of Fox 45. Spokesperson Jessica Bellucci denied any relationship between the ownership of Sinclair and Harbor East. She also accused TRNN and myself of bias.&nbsp;</p>
  6734.  
  6735.  
  6736.  
  6737. <p>&#8220;In your past coverage of Sinclair, you have referred to the <a href="https://therealnews.com/elite-institutions-hoard-wealth-while-cities-die" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">company</a> as &#8220;Right-wing,&#8221; &#8220;Absolutely right-wing,&#8221; and &#8220;Extremist right-wing,&#8221; and Real News Network has <a href="https://therealnews.com/the-infernal-triangle-destroying-us-democracy" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">recently called</a> David &#8220;a right-wing demagogue.&#8221;</p>
  6738.  
  6739.  
  6740.  
  6741. <p>&#8220;With this type of bias, I&#8217;m not confident Sinclair will be covered fairly and accurately by your organization,&#8221; wrote Bellucci.</p>
  6742.  
  6743.  
  6744.  
  6745. <p>&#8220;Harbor East is owned and controlled by Paterakis Family. Sinclair owns 0% and has no involvement in that development,&#8221; she added.&nbsp;</p>
  6746.  
  6747.  
  6748.  
  6749. <p>&#8220;I would hope, in the interest of journalism, similar inquiries by Real News Network regarding tax interest disclosures will be asked of every media company that you cover, and this is not a new line of inquiry specific to WBFF simply because you have an unfavorable opinion of its parent company. I would also hope in your reporting, you do disclose your past ties to the station.&#8221;</p>
  6750.  
  6751.  
  6752.  
  6753. <p>&#8220;Furthermore, as you are well aware, the city of Baltimore has not had a Republican mayor in more than 75 years, every City Council President in history has been a Democrat and all 15 members of the current City Council are also Democrats. So, if any companies are receiving a tax break in Baltimore, that tax break was put into place by Democrats.&#8221;</p>
  6754.  
  6755.  
  6756.  
  6757. <p>Full disclosure: &nbsp;I worked as an investigative producer for Fox from 2011 to 2015, a fact I address in more detail below.&nbsp;</p>
  6758.  
  6759.  
  6760.  
  6761. <p>However, the central question as to what Sinclair should reveal about ownership&#8217;s ties to Harbor East is simply a matter of transparency: what are the obligations of a media enterprise when its journalism and business interests intersect?&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  6762.  
  6763.  
  6764.  
  6765. <p>McBride said the myriad of ties between Sinclair&#8217;s ownership and the very city government and development properties Smith-owned outlets are reporting on warrants a fulsome disclosure strategy. Among her recommendations is the full accounting of the material relationships that might affect Sinclair&#8217;s coverage of the city.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  6766.  
  6767.  
  6768.  
  6769. <p>&#8220;The first line of defense is to be transparent that the conflict exists,&#8221; McBride told TRNN. &#8220;This safeguard includes adding information to the organization&#8217;s website, for example, detailing the material conflict and letting viewers know what management is doing to wall off the prospects that it could impact coverage.”&nbsp;</p>
  6770.  
  6771.  
  6772.  
  6773. <p>McBride expressed concern that material conflicts are not the only problem for Sinclair—she also said perception must be addressed.&nbsp;</p>
  6774.  
  6775.  
  6776.  
  6777. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote><p>&nbsp;The central question as to what Sinclair should reveal about ownership&#8217;s ties to Harbor East is simply a matter of transparency: what are the obligations of a media enterprise when its journalism and business interests intersect?</p></blockquote></figure>
  6778.  
  6779.  
  6780.  
  6781. <p>&#8220;If the conflict is revealed to an average new consumer and they perceive that may have influenced a story, you want to be transparent about that as well,&#8221; she added.&nbsp;</p>
  6782.  
  6783.  
  6784.  
  6785. <p>&#8220;Because perception becomes reality.&#8221;</p>
  6786.  
  6787.  
  6788.  
  6789. <p>From that perspective, Sinclair&#8217;s obligation to reveal its business relationship with the city seems fairly straightforward. The problem isn&#8217;t that the owners of media companies also own property in the municipalities they cover, nor is the problem that there are tax incentives for owners and media companies like these to take advantage of—The Real News Network itself,&nbsp;<a href="https://therealnews.com/about" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">as stated on our website</a>, is a nonprofit media organization, a 501(c)(3) entity, which means it is tax exempt. It is because of the special and exceptional benefits the firm&#8217;s owners have been granted by the city Fox 45 reports on.</p>
  6790.  
  6791.  
  6792.  
  6793. <p>These conflicts have real-world implications.</p>
  6794.  
  6795.  
  6796.  
  6797. <p>Consider a story posted on Fox 45’s website in February, titled “<a href="https://foxbaltimore.com/morning/waste-watch-02-15-2024" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Waste Watch: Why Harborplace Will Put Taxpayer Dollars On The Line</a>,” which focused on the proposed use of public money to fund the overhaul of the city’s iconic and aging waterfront pavilions. The plan calls for tearing down the existing infrastructure and replacing it with residential apartments. To fund it, the developer is asking for $400 million in public subsidies.</p>
  6798.  
  6799.  
  6800.  
  6801. <p>In the piece, David Williams—president of the Taxpayers Protection Alliance, a DC-based nonprofit—questions the use of taxpayer dollars to pay for the overhaul. He also cites other projects like the troubled Port Covington development, which received generous tax breaks as well, as a warning to city residents that subsidies don’t always deliver.</p>
  6802.  
  6803.  
  6804.  
  6805. <p>“There are a lot of promises going on here, and this could be very, very expensive for taxpayers,” Williams argues passionately.&nbsp;</p>
  6806.  
  6807.  
  6808.  
  6809. <p>But neither the segment itself nor the anchor interviewing him discloses the ties between Sinclair’s ownership and Harbor East. &nbsp;It’s a troubling oversight, especially considering the fact that the development—which, again, the station&#8217;s owners&#8217; families also own—has plenty of residential units, restaurants, and attractions a stone&#8217;s throw away that would be in direct competition to the new renovation of Harborplace. They also do not disclose that Harbor East is a taxpayer-subsidized development as well, which would be worth noting if the station is going to run an interview highly critical of tax subsidies in general.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  6810.  
  6811.  
  6812.  
  6813. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-a-perplexing-diet-of-negative-news"><strong>A perplexing diet of negative news</strong></h2>
  6814.  
  6815.  
  6816.  
  6817. <p>Still, even though the appearance of conflict is frequent enough to raise questions, Fox 45’s approach to coverage of Baltimore doesn’t neatly fit with one&#8217;s expectations of a journalism entity compromised by ownership interests. Sinclair would seemingly have every incentive to portray Baltimore positively—it would certainly make more people want to live in and visit the city where the Smith and Paterakis families own major waterfront developments—yet they emphatically don’t.</p>
  6818.  
  6819.  
  6820.  
  6821. <p>This apparent dissonance becomes even more pronounced if you spend time within the area of Harbor East itself.</p>
  6822.  
  6823.  
  6824.  
  6825. <p>Last month, I attended a journalism conference sponsored by Investigative Reporters and Editors held at the Marriott Waterfront Hotel. Each day of that conference, roughly a thousand journalists learned about the latest techniques to obtain and analyze data. Then, they would spread out across the neighborhood seeking food and entertainment options. Sidling between stores like Chanel and Abercrombie &amp; Fitch, and walking along the expansive, well-appointed marina, it becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly that the waterfront entertainment district relies heavily upon tourism. Watching the crowds venturing through Harbor East, Fox 45’s city-in-crisis mantra didn’t make sense.</p>
  6826.  
  6827.  
  6828.  
  6829. <p>Setting aside for a moment the possibility that the constant drumbeat of crime reporting is just a way to ensure police are paying attention, there might be another, less obvious explanation for Fox 45’s focus on mayhem. Circumstances particular to Baltimore have made it easy pickings for businesses and politicians astute enough to exploit it. The &#8220;failed city&#8221; narrative is not illogical if you understand the system that has made generous tax subsidies for developments like Harbor East a centerpiece of the city&#8217;s growth strategy.</p>
  6830.  
  6831.  
  6832.  
  6833. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-a-city-designed-to-fail"><strong>A city designed to fail</strong></h2>
  6834.  
  6835.  
  6836.  
  6837. <p>First, it&#8217;s essential to understand the uniquely perilous dilemma Baltimore faces as it tries to staunch the outflow of residents and attract investment. As our investigative documentary <em>Tax Broke</em> details, Baltimore is one of only two so-called independent municipal entities—the other being St. Louis—with a population of over 500,000. This means that neither city is integrated into the county that surrounds them.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  6838.  
  6839.  
  6840.  
  6841. <p>As a result, both cities suffer from similar ills, such as lost population, a shrinking tax base, and concentrated poverty. Unfortunately, Baltimore’s inability to expand or grow its revenue base has led to an even more debilitating predicament: a property tax rate roughly twice that of the surrounding counties. Legendary urban planner David Rusk understood the broader implications of this isolation decades ago. As he noted in his 1995 book <em>Baltimore Unbound</em>, cities that cannot expand are doomed to fail.</p>
  6842.  
  6843.  
  6844.  
  6845. <p>Nevertheless, as Harbor East demonstrates, failure can be quite profitable if you know how to take advantage of it.</p>
  6846.  
  6847.  
  6848.  
  6849. <p>That&#8217;s because Baltimore&#8217;s constraints have forced the city to be particularly aggressive to attract development. This means almost all of the new construction that has occurred over the past two decades has been in some form or fashion tied to tax incentives. The consequence is a thoroughly balkanized tax system that favors developers over residents and small business owners, which is perhaps why, despite the cluster of construction cranes visible downtown, the city&#8217;s population has continued to shrink.</p>
  6850.  
  6851.  
  6852.  
  6853. <p>Where this fits in with Sinclair&#8217;s aggressive approach to covering the city is simple: a failed city is a vulnerable city. A city that is, at its core, dysfunctional certainly can&#8217;t demand fair and equitable development.</p>
  6854.  
  6855.  
  6856.  
  6857. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-i-was-part-of-the-problem"><strong>I was part of the problem</strong></h2>
  6858.  
  6859.  
  6860.  
  6861. <p>I, too, was part of the problem, a fact that the Sinclair spokesperson invited me to explore. So here goes.</p>
  6862.  
  6863.  
  6864.  
  6865. <p>I worked as an investigative producer at Fox 45 from 2011 to 2015. The station is where I got my start on the whole topic of development-driven tax breaks. In 2012, I co-produced a series of investigative reports on the planned Harbor Point development and the accompanying $106 million TIF (tax increment financing) the city had approved to fund it. The reporting was fair and thorough, and it even earned a Capital Emmy Award for best investigative series.</p>
  6866.  
  6867.  
  6868.  
  6869. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote><p>Hammering away at government malfeasance while benefiting from ties to that same government may be good for business, but is it good for journalism?</p></blockquote></figure>
  6870.  
  6871.  
  6872.  
  6873. <p>At the time, I was completely unaware of Sinclair ownership&#8217;s interest in Harbor East, which is directly adjacent to Harbor Point. The conflict should have been disclosed, because Harbor Point would be—and is—a direct competitor to Harbor East. But we didn&#8217;t, which was my fault. Ignorance is no excuse.&nbsp;</p>
  6874.  
  6875.  
  6876.  
  6877. <p>Still, what I always found curious about working for Sinclair was that management&#8217;s public preference for unfettered capitalism never stopped them from accepting government subsidies. Maybe that&#8217;s just good business, although, at times, it felt hypocritical.</p>
  6878.  
  6879.  
  6880.  
  6881. <p>That point was driven home for me when Sinclair worked with a consortium of local broadcasters to lobby the government to buy back spectrum that had been given to them by the federal government.&nbsp;</p>
  6882.  
  6883.  
  6884.  
  6885. <p>Spectrum is another type of real estate, just of the <a href="https://www.theverge.com/2016/4/21/11481454/fcc-broadcast-incentive-auction-explained" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">digital variety</a>. It conveys all sorts of information, from radio broadcasts to cell phone signals, and is vital to a plethora of telecommunications industries. The government had regulated it for years, awarding spectrum to local broadcasters with the understanding that the limited supply meant it was essentially a public good.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  6886.  
  6887.  
  6888.  
  6889. <p>Decades later, that same government decided to take it back due to a so-called &#8220;spectrum&nbsp;crunch.&#8221; Companies like Verizon and AT&amp;T, eager to add more cell phone customers and improve download speeds, needed more spectrum to expand.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  6890.  
  6891.  
  6892.  
  6893. <p>What should have been a reasonable plan to return what had essentially been gifted to broadcasters like Sinclair instead became a push for compensation.&nbsp;</p>
  6894.  
  6895.  
  6896.  
  6897. <p>Broadcasters lobbied the government to pay them in exchange for returning the bandwidth. I recall on one occasion being sent to Washington, DC, to do an interview with the National Association of Broadcasters, who were pushing for this plan, specifically. I thought it was suspect at the time, given my employer&#8217;s material interest in the outcome.&nbsp;</p>
  6898.  
  6899.  
  6900.  
  6901. <p>According to Adweek, the auction ultimately netted Sinclair $313 million<em>; </em>a very nice payout in exchange for a public good that was given to them for free, a fact that was never acknowledged in my story or any other coverage of the topic I recall.&nbsp;</p>
  6902.  
  6903.  
  6904.  
  6905. <p>The point is that while Sinclair has benefited from public largesse, it never acknowledges the benefits publicly, which makes the Harbor East non-disclosure issue part of a troubling pattern. Hammering away at government malfeasance while benefiting from ties to that same government may be good for business, but is it good for journalism?</p>
  6906.  
  6907.  
  6908.  
  6909. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-the-tightening-grip-of-sinclair-s-power-nbsp"><strong>The tightening grip of Sinclair&#8217;s power</strong>&nbsp;</h2>
  6910.  
  6911.  
  6912.  
  6913. <p>The obligation of Sinclair’s ownership to disclose a material relationship aside, the people I worked with during my tenure at Fox 45 were outstanding journalists, and we did do important work together. They cared, worked hard, and produced excellent work under what were often difficult circumstances. I still cherish my time there and admire my former colleagues. Truthfully, it was Sinclair that rescued my career after the <em>Baltimore Examiner</em>, a short-lived newspaper, closed—so, for that, I am grateful.</p>
  6914.  
  6915.  
  6916.  
  6917. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote><p>The people I worked with during my tenure at Fox 45 were outstanding journalists. They cared, worked hard, and produced excellent work under what were often difficult circumstances. I still cherish my time there and admire my former colleagues.</p></blockquote></figure>
  6918.  
  6919.  
  6920.  
  6921. <p>That said, it&#8217;s clear that Sinclair has to do some work to build public confidence. Recently, the local activist group Leaders of a Beautiful Struggle held a town hall at the Reginald Lewis Museum to discuss Sinclair&#8217;s coverage of Baltimore.</p>
  6922.  
  6923.  
  6924.  
  6925. <p>The topic was Sinclair&#8217;s constant drumbeat of crime reporting, which a variety of speakers deemed, if not racially tinged, to be at the very least imbalanced.</p>
  6926.  
  6927.  
  6928.  
  6929. <p>Dayvon Love, policy director for LBS, argued that the station&#8217;s disproportionate focus on crime created a misrepresentation of African-American youth—a critique echoed by a panel that included State Senator Jill Carter, whom the station has often targeted for her work on juvenile justice reform.&nbsp;</p>
  6930.  
  6931.  
  6932.  
  6933. <p>Recently, some of this mistrust boiled over when current Baltimore Mayor Brandon Scott refused to participate in a debate with challenger and former Mayor Sheila Dixon, which was to air on Fox 45.&nbsp;</p>
  6934.  
  6935.  
  6936.  
  6937. <p>Scott cited the station&#8217;s perceived lack of impartiality as his reason for declining.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
  6938.  
  6939.  
  6940.  
  6941. <p>&#8220;Fox 45 WBFF have showcased themselves to be entirely incapable of being impartial and ethical in their approach,&#8221; he said.</p>
  6942.  
  6943.  
  6944.  
  6945. <figure class="wp-block-pullquote alignright"><blockquote><p>Fortunately, Baltimore&#8217;s media market does not lack alternatives to Fox 45.</p></blockquote></figure>
  6946.  
  6947.  
  6948.  
  6949. <p>Scott proposed a list of neutral moderators who would have editorial autonomy. Fox 45 rejected the offer.&nbsp;</p>
  6950.  
  6951.  
  6952.  
  6953. <p>All of these questions of media ethics are even more important due to the most recent addition to Smith&#8217;s media portfolio: the <em>Baltimore Sun</em>. Smith&#8217;s acquisition of the paper of record expands his media footprint in Baltimore and, with it, his influence. What will happen to the city that seems increasingly subject to the whims of a single, ever-more powerful family?</p>
  6954.  
  6955.  
  6956.  
  6957. <p>Fortunately, Baltimore&#8217;s media market does not lack alternatives to Fox 45.&nbsp;</p>
  6958.  
  6959.  
  6960.  
  6961. <p><a href="https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Baltimore Banner</a> does excellent work and is independently funded. <em><a href="https://baltimorebeat.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Baltimore Beat</a></em> is an independent newspaper distributed free to the community with a focus on the arts and culture of Baltimore City residents. <a href="https://www.baltimorebrew.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Baltimore Brew</a> has built a solid reputation for exacting accountability reporting of city governance. And, of course, the <em><a href="https://afro.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Afro-American Newspaper</a></em>, for which I occasionally write, provides robust local reporting with a historical context that can only come from being the longest longest-running Black-owned newspaper in America.&nbsp;</p>
  6962.  
  6963.  
  6964.  
  6965. <p>However, all these entities are either nonprofit organizations or small in scale, and none have the combined power of being the paper of record aligned with a national broadcast network. It wouldn’t be unreasonable to conclude that Sinclair and its affiliates will continue to portray Baltimore as a “city in crisis,” even if purveyors of that message are both part of the problem and the beneficiaries of its supposed failures.</p>
  6966. ]]></content:encoded>
  6970. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312441</post-id> </item>
  6971. <item>
  6972. <title>Occupation at Johns Hopkins University aims to protest on behalf of Palestinians</title>
  6973. <link>https://therealnews.com/occupation-at-johns-hopkins-university-aims-to-protest-on-behalf-of-palestinians</link>
  6975. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Jaisal Noor]]></dc:creator>
  6976. <pubDate>Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
  6977. <category><![CDATA[Article]]></category>
  6978. <category><![CDATA[Baltimore]]></category>
  6979. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  6980. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  6981. <category><![CDATA[article]]></category>
  6982. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  6983. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  6984. <category><![CDATA[Johns Hopkins University]]></category>
  6985. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  6986. <category><![CDATA[Reprint]]></category>
  6987. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312849</guid>
  6988.  
  6989. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="768" height="1024" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?fit=768%2C1024&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="The Palestine Solidarity Encampment at Johns Hopkins University on April 30, 2024. Credit: Lisa Snowden" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?w=960&amp;ssl=1 960w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=225%2C300&amp;ssl=1 225w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=768%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=900%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 900w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=600%2C800&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=450%2C600&amp;ssl=1 450w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=300%2C400&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=150%2C200&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=400%2C533&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?fit=768%2C1024&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Organizers said university officials threatened to call the police on people who remained on campus overnight.]]></description>
  6990. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="768" height="1024" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?fit=768%2C1024&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="The Palestine Solidarity Encampment at Johns Hopkins University on April 30, 2024. Credit: Lisa Snowden" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?w=960&amp;ssl=1 960w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=225%2C300&amp;ssl=1 225w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=768%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=900%2C1200&amp;ssl=1 900w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=600%2C800&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=450%2C600&amp;ssl=1 450w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=300%2C400&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=150%2C200&amp;ssl=1 150w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?resize=400%2C533&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/IMG_6346-scaled-Large.jpeg?fit=768%2C1024&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  6991. <div class="wp-block-media-text is-stacked-on-mobile" style="grid-template-columns:18% auto"><figure class="wp-block-media-text__media"><img decoding="async" width="160" height="122" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?resize=160%2C122&#038;ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-312851 size-full" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=160&amp;ssl=1 160w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=370&amp;ssl=1 370w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screen-Shot-2024-04-30-at-2.40.22-PM.png?w=400&amp;ssl=1 400w" sizes="(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px" data-recalc-dims="1" /></figure><div class="wp-block-media-text__content">
  6992. <p style="font-size:18px"><em>This story originally appeared in <a href="https://baltimorebeat.com/students-launch-occupation-at-johns-hopkins-university-to-protest-gaza-war/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Baltimore Beat</a> on Apr. 30, 2024. It is shared here with permission.</em></p>
  6993. </div></div>
  6994.  
  6995.  
  6996.  
  6997. <p class="has-drop-cap">Activists and organizers who set up an encampment at Johns Hopkins University said that school officials threatened to call the police on them if they didn’t leave last night. They said that school officials also threatened them with academic sanctions.</p>
  6998.  
  6999.  
  7000.  
  7001. <p>“We have been clear that the consequences of violating our policies and creating unsafe conditions include academic discipline, which is determined by University officials, and trespass, which is handled by local law enforcement,” a representative for the school said in an email to <em>Baltimore Beat</em>.</p>
  7002.  
  7003.  
  7004.  
  7005. <p>Organizers launched the encampment on Monday, April 29.</p>
  7006.  
  7007.  
  7008.  
  7009. <p>A negotiation team working on behalf of the Palestine Solidarity Encampment said that they offered officials concessions when officials said that people had to leave, citing health and safety concerns.</p>
  7010.  
  7011.  
  7012.  
  7013. <p>“The negotiation team offered the following concessions and guarantees in order to allow the encampment to remain overnight: respect for campus quiet hours, offers to take down semi-permanent structures, offers to keep supplies and materials off-site, freedom of movement for students and non-participants, a written guarantee of nonviolence, and continuous presence of de-escalators on-site,” organizers said via a statement from the Hopkins Justice Collaborative.</p>
  7014.  
  7015.  
  7016.  
  7017. <p>“The University Administration released a public statement claiming an agreement was reached with our negotiation team to limit the hours of our encampment. This is a false statement. No agreement was reached. In addition, they stated in the email that they met with students for several hours—this is also untrue; negotiations lasted for one hour. What is most egregious is that the message stated that they had concerns over the ‘health, safety, and welfare’ of students. This is in clear contradiction of their threat last night when they admitted that they were willing to risk the safety and wellbeing of students by calling in the BPD and sending students to jail,” the statement read.</p>
  7018.  
  7019.  
  7020.  
  7021. <p>One student who stayed overnight and identified himself as TB spoke to Baltimore Beat by phone from the campus on Tuesday morning. He said school administrators threatened to call the Baltimore City Police if the people gathered did not leave. He said that they asked officials if they were willing to risk the safety of students to do so, and the officials didn’t seem to care.&nbsp;</p>
  7022.  
  7023.  
  7024.  
  7025. <p>TB said he felt an obligation to remain on campus, and as long as others were with him, he would stay there as long as he needed to.&nbsp;</p>
  7026.  
  7027.  
  7028.  
  7029. <p>“We are saving the Palestinian people, speaking up for them since they cannot speak up for themselves at the moment,” he said.&nbsp;</p>
  7030.  
  7031.  
  7032.  
  7033. <p>TB asked people to continue to gather at the university to continue to highlight the plight of Palestinians.</p>
  7034.  
  7035.  
  7036.  
  7037. <p>“Please join our struggle to fight for the human rights of the Palestinian people to exist,” he said. “We invite you to struggle and fight for the human rights of the Palestinian people.”&nbsp;</p>
  7038.  
  7039.  
  7040.  
  7041. <p>“All out to JHU: We need your consistent urgent support!!!” read an Instagram&nbsp;<a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/C6YmSx4uSc6/?img_index=1">post</a>&nbsp;by the organization Students for Justice in Palestine at Johns Hopkins University Tuesday morning. “We are not letting Johns Hopkins shut down our encampment. We are still here. There have been no arrests.”</p>
  7042.  
  7043.  
  7044.  
  7045. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  7046.  
  7047.  
  7048.  
  7049. <p>“We’re here to urge the university to sever its financial and academic links [in Israel] and its involvement in the ongoing genocide in Palestine,” Sarah, a Hopkins undergraduate, told Baltimore Beat. They chose not to provide their full name due to concerns about being targeted for their pro-Palestine stance.</p>
  7050.  
  7051.  
  7052.  
  7053. <p>The encampment had places to get food, supplies of face masks and tables offering free books and newspapers. People spread out blankets, and some sat under tents.</p>
  7054.  
  7055.  
  7056.  
  7057. <p>Throughout the evening, activists chanted, “Disclose, divest; we will not leave until our demands are met,” and “Free, free, free, Palestine!”</p>
  7058.  
  7059.  
  7060.  
  7061. <p>At around 8 p.m., a Baltimore City Police Department helicopter made tight circles around the encampment. A smattering of police officers stood around the perimeter of the area where people had gathered.</p>
  7062.  
  7063.  
  7064.  
  7065. <p>By 10 p.m., six hours after the encampment’s launch, demonstrators had ignored multiple orders to disperse. Instead, they distributed water and food as they prepared to spend the night to ensure their demands were met.&nbsp;</p>
  7066.  
  7067.  
  7068.  
  7069. <p>Representatives for organizers met with Hopkins officials, and by 3 a.m., some decided to abide by the university’s request that they leave and return the next day. Others said they felt a strong commitment to remain on campus no matter what.&nbsp;</p>
  7070.  
  7071.  
  7072.  
  7073. <p>Over 34,000 Palestinians have been killed during the more than six-month-long Israeli assault, which has been supported by the U.S. government with weapons shipments and diplomatic support. Politico&nbsp;<a href="https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/29/lawyers-israel-arm-sales-biden-00154958" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">reports</a>&nbsp;20 State Department lawyers are urging a halt of the flow of arms to Israel because it may be using U.S.-made weapons in violation of international law. Meanwhile, humanitarian experts warn that a&nbsp;<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war-humanitarian-aid.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">famine</a>&nbsp;is developing in Gaza because Israel is blocking food deliveries.</p>
  7074.  
  7075.  
  7076.  
  7077. <p>“I was moved to see the courage, moral clarity, and conviction that the student protestors displayed today; this encampment has been established with a clear understanding of how to keep participants safe, and how to keep the space inclusive, thoughtful, and disciplined,” Hopkins English professor Drew Daniel, who visited the encampment, told Baltimore Beat in an email.&nbsp;</p>
  7078.  
  7079.  
  7080.  
  7081. <p>The protest is part of a&nbsp;<a href="https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/29/mapping-pro-palestine-campus-protests-around-the-world" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">national movement</a>&nbsp;of campus occupations urging universities with substantial endowments to cut financial ties with companies that support the Israeli occupation. At several other universities, hundreds of students and faculty have been&nbsp;<a href="https://www.axios.com/2024/04/27/palestinian-college-protest-arrest-encampment" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">arrested</a>&nbsp;nationwide, often violently, after officials have ordered police to clear the protests.</p>
  7082.  
  7083.  
  7084.  
  7085. <p>“I want to encourage my fellow faculty members to show up and show solidarity with our students as they speak out against what is happening in Gaza, and to lend their voices to the growing calls from our students to hold Hopkins accountable for its investments in corporations that profit from this conflict,” said Daniel, who was vocal in his support of the&nbsp;<a href="https://baltimorebeat.com/johns-hopkins-university-sit-in-escalates-with-direct-action-and-full-occupation/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">student protests</a>&nbsp;against the Hopkins private police force in 2019.&nbsp;</p>
  7086.  
  7087.  
  7088.  
  7089. <p>“Consider Emory University, for example, where police used tear gas and were aggressively handling students, throwing them to the ground and arresting them. Rubber bullets have been fired at student occupations. We’re here to ensure that doesn’t happen,” they said.</p>
  7090.  
  7091.  
  7092.  
  7093. <p>Dozens spread out blankets and set up pop-up tents at Hopkins Beach, a large grassy area on the Hopkins Homewood campus, and created protest signs.</p>
  7094.  
  7095.  
  7096.  
  7097. <p>Over 100 Hopkins faculty and staff wrote an&nbsp;<a href="https://jhfacultyforacademicfreedom.wordpress.com/openletter/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">open letter</a>&nbsp;to the university, urging it to allow the protests to continue.</p>
  7098.  
  7099.  
  7100.  
  7101. <p>“We call on you to continue fulfilling your responsibilities to protect peaceful protesters, uphold academic freedom, and resist any pressure to criminalize demonstrations. In recent weeks, several universities have allowed extensive protests and have managed to keep everyone safe,” the letter states.</p>
  7102.  
  7103.  
  7104.  
  7105. <p>The organizers’ additional demands include a Hopkins boycott of Israeli academic institutions, condemnation of the deaths of Palestinians and a call for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza. They also demand that the university denounce the widespread repression of pro-Palestine speech in the United States, particularly on college campuses, and reaffirm its commitment to free speech without fear of reprisal.</p>
  7106.  
  7107.  
  7108.  
  7109. <p>Supporters of Israel, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, have attempted to brand the campus protests as antisemitic.</p>
  7110.  
  7111.  
  7112.  
  7113. <p>Sarah, who is Jewish, rejects this notion. “There are many Jewish organizers, including myself, who have consistently supported Palestine, been arrested for the cause and are here to declare that Zionism is not part of our Jewish identity.”</p>
  7114.  
  7115.  
  7116.  
  7117. <p>At the Hopkins protest camp, racism, bigotry and antisemitism are strictly prohibited, as outlined in a code of conduct given to participants.</p>
  7118.  
  7119.  
  7120.  
  7121. <p>“Antisemitism has no place in this encampment,” Sarah noted, highlighting that Muslim students have faced harassment on campus for expressing pro-Palestinian views.</p>
  7122.  
  7123.  
  7124.  
  7125. <p>Organizers say they were inspired to start their own campus occupation by both the historic national wave of student protests and Hopkins’ legacy of successful campus protests.</p>
  7126.  
  7127.  
  7128.  
  7129. <p>In 1986, a years-long student campaign pressured Hopkins into divesting from corporations that did business with the white supremacist government of South Africa.</p>
  7130.  
  7131.  
  7132.  
  7133. <p>“Students once camped for nine days to protest apartheid in South Africa, and they successfully pushed the school to divest. We are part of that legacy,” Sarah explained.&nbsp;</p>
  7134.  
  7135.  
  7136.  
  7137. <p>“The demand to divest is not going to go away, and I hope the administration listens and responds in a manner that lives up to its stated mission to generate ‘knowledge for the world.’ The people of Gaza are a part of that world, and Hopkins needs to act like it,” Daniel said.&nbsp;</p>
  7138.  
  7139.  
  7140.  
  7141. <p><em>Additional reporting by Lisa Snowden.</em></p>
  7142.  
  7143.  
  7144.  
  7145. <p>Updated 4/30/2024 6:14PM</p>
  7146. ]]></content:encoded>
  7150. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312849</post-id> </item>
  7151. <item>
  7152. <title>&#8216;The university fears us because of how little we fear them&#8217;: Michigan Gaza encampment organizers demand university divest from Israel</title>
  7153. <link>https://therealnews.com/the-university-fears-us-because-of-how-little-we-fear-them-michigan-gaza-encampment-organizers-demand-university-divest-from-israel</link>
  7155. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Maximillian Alvarez]]></dc:creator>
  7156. <pubDate>Tue, 30 Apr 2024 15:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
  7157. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  7158. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  7159. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  7160. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  7161. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  7162. <category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
  7163. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312837</guid>
  7164.  
  7165. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Pro-Palestinian students protest at an encampment on the campus of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Michigan on April 28, 2024. Photo by JEFF KOWALSKY/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1366&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1334&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Joining students at over 100 campuses and encampments on every continent, students, grad students, and faculty at the University of Michigan join the call for divestment.]]></description>
  7166. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Pro-Palestinian students protest at an encampment on the campus of the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Michigan on April 28, 2024. Photo by JEFF KOWALSKY/AFP via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1366&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1334&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-2150087861-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
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  7170.  
  7171.  
  7172.  
  7173. <p class="has-drop-cap">At this very moment, a student-led grassroots movement is spreading throughout the country, with&nbsp;<a target="_blank" href="https://www.palestineiseverywhere.com/" rel="noreferrer noopener">over 100 encampments</a>&nbsp;going up at different college and university campuses around the country and around the world in protest of Israel’s US-funded genocidal war on Gaza and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. In what is being called the “student intifada,” students, faculty, grad students, and other campus community members are exercising civil disobedience, occupying space on campuses, defying brutal repression from administrators and police, combatting skewed and wildly lopsided narratives in corporate media, and pressuring their universities to “disclose and divest” their investments in companies and financial institutions connected to Israel.</p>
  7174.  
  7175.  
  7176.  
  7177. <p>In this urgent podcast, we take you to the frontlines of struggle and speak directly with student and grad student organizers of the Gaza encampment at the University of Michigan’s flagship campus in Ann Arbor. As the&nbsp;<em>Michigan Daily</em>, the student newspaper,&nbsp;<a target="_blank" href="https://www.michigandaily.com/news/administration/24-hours-at-the-umich-gaza-solidarity-encampment/" rel="noreferrer noopener">reports</a>, “The encampment was organized by the&nbsp;<a target="_blank" href="https://tahrirumich.org/" rel="noreferrer noopener">TAHRIR Coalition</a>, a student-led coalition of more than 80 organizations including the&nbsp;<a target="_blank" href="https://maizepages.umich.edu/organization/jewishvoiceforpeaceUM/" rel="noreferrer noopener">U-M chapter</a>&nbsp;of Jewish Voice for Peace and&nbsp;<a target="_blank" href="https://www.instagram.com/safeumich/" rel="noreferrer noopener">Students Allied for Freedom and Equality</a>. The encampment follows six months of student protests for the University’s divestment, which began with a&nbsp;<a target="_blank" href="https://www.michigandaily.com/news/campus-life/umich-safe-protests-president-onos-response-to-violence-in-middle-east/" rel="noreferrer noopener">sit-in</a>&nbsp;at the President’s house in October. Since then, students have continuously organized protests across campus demanding the University divest from Israel’s military campaign in Gaza.” TRNN’s Editor-in-Chief Maximillian Alvarez (who is an alumnus of the University of Michigan), speaks with Salma Hamamy, an undergraduate at UM and president of&nbsp;<a target="_blank" href="https://www.instagram.com/safeumich/?hl=en" rel="noreferrer noopener">Students Allied For Freedom and Equality</a>&nbsp;(SAFE), and Ember McCoy, a graduate student worker and department organizer in the&nbsp;<a target="_blank" href="https://www.geo3550.org/" rel="noreferrer noopener">Graduate Employees Organization</a>&nbsp;(GEO).</p>
  7178.  
  7179.  
  7180.  
  7181. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  7182. <p>Studio Production: Maximillian Alvarez<br>Post-Production: David Hebden</p>
  7183. </blockquote>
  7184.  
  7185.  
  7186.  
  7187. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  7188.  
  7189.  
  7190.  
  7191. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  7192.  
  7193.  
  7194.  
  7195. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  7196.  
  7197.  
  7198.  
  7199. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  7200.  
  7201.  
  7202.  
  7203. <p>Welcome everyone to the Real News Network podcast. My name is Maximillian Alvarez. I&#8217;m the editor-in-chief here at The Real News, and it&#8217;s so great to have you all with us. Before we get going today, I want to remind y&#8217;all that The Real News is an independent viewer- and listener-supported grassroots media network. We don&#8217;t take corporate cash, we don&#8217;t have ads, and we never put our reporting behind paywalls. We have a small, but incredible team of folks who are fiercely dedicated to lifting up the voices from the front lines of struggle around the world. But we cannot continue to do this work without your support, and we need you to become a supporter of The Real News now. Just head over to therealnews.com/donate and donate today. I promise you, it really makes a difference.</p>
  7204.  
  7205.  
  7206.  
  7207. <p>At this very moment, a grassroots protest movement is spreading to different college and university campuses around the country, and it is being called the Student Intifada. As the Guardian reported this weekend, &#8220;At least 40 pro-Palestine protest camps have arisen across US campuses following Columbia University&#8217;s example, earlier this month, as the New York school&#8217;s senate called for an investigation into its leadership, the New York Times reported. While many remain provocative though peaceful, demanding a ceasefire in Gaza and divestment by their institutions from companies with ties to Israel, hundreds of students and outside protesters have been arrested, and there have been some fierce clashes with police.</p>
  7208.  
  7209.  
  7210.  
  7211. <p>At Columbia University, a proposal to censor, university president, Minouche Shafik, fell short, but a resolution calling for an investigation passed by a vote of 62 to 14 on Friday, according to the New York Times. Shafik has been scrutinized since the decision last week to summon New York police to the campus and authorize them to dismantle an encampment resulting in the arrest of more than 100 student protesters. Ohio State and Emerson University were just some of the college campuses with arrests on Thursday amid a wave of protests in solidarity with Palestine. Encampments in solidarity with Columbia have since emerged at Northwestern University in Cook County, Illinois, Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, George Washington University in Washington, DC, Princeton University in New Jersey, the City College of New York, and Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts.&#8221;</p>
  7212.  
  7213.  
  7214.  
  7215. <p>And that&#8217;s just the beginning. More encampments are going up and growing as we speak, including at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor campus, my alma mater. Now, we&#8217;re recording this podcast on Monday, April 29th, and exactly one week ago, the student newspaper on campus, the Michigan Daily, wrote this. &#8220;As of 6:00 AM Monday, University of Michigan students set up a Gaza solidarity encampment on the Diag planning to remain until the university meets their demand of divestment from companies profiting off Israel&#8217;s military campaign in Gaza. The encampment was organized by the Tahrir Coalition, a student-led coalition of more than 80 organizations, including the U of M chapter of Jewish Voice for Peace and Students Allied for Freedom and Equality. The encampment follows six months of student protests for the university&#8217;s divestment, which began with a sit-in at the President&#8217;s house in October. Since then, students have continuously organized protests across campus demanding the university divest from Israel&#8217;s military campaign in Gaza.&#8221;</p>
  7216.  
  7217.  
  7218.  
  7219. <p>In this urgent podcast, I got to speak with Salma Hamamy, an undergraduate at U of M and president of Students Allied for Freedom and Equality, or SAFE. I also got to speak with Ember McCoy, a graduate student worker and department organizer in the Graduate Employees Organization, or GEO. Here&#8217;s my conversation with Salma and Ember, which we recorded at noon on April 29th.</p>
  7220.  
  7221.  
  7222.  
  7223. <p>Salma Hamamy:</p>
  7224.  
  7225.  
  7226.  
  7227. <p>Hi, my name is Salma. I am a senior at the University of Michigan, double majoring in Biology, Health and Society and Middle Eastern and North African studies with a double minor in law, justice and social change and Arabic studies. I was born and raised in Ann Arbor. I&#8217;ve been a [inaudible 00:04:40] for the vast majority of my life, but ethnically, I am Palestinian. Currently, I am the president of the Students for Justice in Palestine chapter here at the University of Michigan, also known as Students Allied for Freedom and Equality. And I&#8217;m also the advocacy chair for the University Students Association.</p>
  7228.  
  7229.  
  7230.  
  7231. <p>Ember McCoy:</p>
  7232.  
  7233.  
  7234.  
  7235. <p>Hi, my name is Ember. I&#8217;m a fourth year PhD candidate in the School for Environment and Sustainability here at University of Michigan. I&#8217;m a member of our Graduate Employees Organization, which is our graduate student labor union. And yeah, I&#8217;ve lived in Ann Arbor for about 10 years, whether in school or working for the university.</p>
  7236.  
  7237.  
  7238.  
  7239. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  7240.  
  7241.  
  7242.  
  7243. <p>Oh yeah. Well, Salma, Ember, thank you both so much for joining us today on The Real News Network. I really appreciate it, especially with everything you&#8217;ve got going on, not just the encampment that we are here to talk about, the struggle to end the genocide in Gaza, but you&#8217;re also studying for finals. You&#8217;re also students and grad students trying to make a living in a very expensive college town. So thank you so much for taking a few minutes to chat with us because everyone wants to know what&#8217;s going on over there. They want to hear from you guys, and I&#8217;m so grateful to you both for making time for this.</p>
  7244.  
  7245.  
  7246.  
  7247. <p>And a quick disclaimer for everyone listening, as I&#8217;ve mentioned on previous interviews that I&#8217;ve done with members of the Graduate Employees Organization there at Ann Arbor that I myself am a former GEO member. I received my dual PhDs in History and Comparative Literature at the University of Michigan. So you can take or leave whatever I have to say on this podcast. But as always, we are doing our best to lift up the voices from the front lines of struggle. And more than anything, you should listen to them. We&#8217;re going to just turn things back over to our guests right now.</p>
  7248.  
  7249.  
  7250.  
  7251. <p>I wanted to just start with you, Salma, and ask if you could just take our listeners there over the past week, like what&#8217;s been going on over there on the Ann Arbor campus. How did this encampment get started? Yeah, if you could just give our listeners a sort of breakdown about how things have been going the past week.</p>
  7252.  
  7253.  
  7254.  
  7255. <p>Salma Hamamy:</p>
  7256.  
  7257.  
  7258.  
  7259. <p>Yeah, of course. So as of Monday, April 22nd, students at the University of Michigan have set up an encampment that has continuously grown and expanded and has been the recipient of an immense amount of community support and solidarity. Initially, on our first night when we set up at about four in the morning on Monday, we had approximately 60 students dedicated to camping and participating in the encampment. As of last night, we have now reached over 185 campers, and we have tripled in space and in size and we continue to receive an immense amount of funding and donations and people constantly supporting in whatever way they can, donating food, supplies and really helping us out with programming because as we are participating in this encampment, we are there 24/7. So we have created a huge community center space within the encampment as well as various stations for people to participate, such as a screening area.</p>
  7260.  
  7261.  
  7262.  
  7263. <p>We have something called the Liberation Library with various literature for people to read up onto why student movements and organizing is so crucial and why the university is such a pivotal point of change within the Palestinian movement. So in addition to the literature, the community space, and the gatherings that we have accumulated just within this past week, we have also spread an immense amount of awareness regarding our mission and why we are there and why we are refusing to leave. The students here have been organizing for months. Our organizing did not begin with this encampment, nor did it begin within the last six months. We have been active on this campus for decades. However, within this year it has grown exponentially and you are now able to see the results of the amount of work that students have been putting into this.</p>
  7264.  
  7265.  
  7266.  
  7267. <p>So while encampments went up throughout the United States shortly after Columbia University&#8217;s encampment was brutalized and targeted and students were arrested, we are not only doing this in solidarity with the students who have been brutalized, but also primarily because the people of Gaza deserve to have their calls and voices answered. So that is our primary objective, and it&#8217;s been amazing to see even students in Gaza release statements of solidarity and support and gratitude to these students in a movement that they&#8217;re now calling the Student Intifada, and Intifada translating to uprising. So they have been expressing words of hope like never before because students have put forth this new level of bravery that has, unfortunately, been brushed under the rug for so long. And what we&#8217;re seeing is now this accumulation of anger, grief, frustration, but primarily solidarity, hope, and perseverance. And that is what is at the forefront of every single encampment that we have seen come throughout every single university in the United States. And it&#8217;s especially prevalent right now within the encampment at the University of Michigan.</p>
  7268.  
  7269.  
  7270.  
  7271. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  7272.  
  7273.  
  7274.  
  7275. <p>And Ember, I&#8217;m really curious, y&#8217;all were on strike last year. You were prepared to strike at the beginning of this school year. Tell me about, from the grad student, GEO perspective, what does this all look like to you all over the past week, over the past six months, and how the grad students have participated in this?</p>
  7276.  
  7277.  
  7278.  
  7279. <p>Ember McCoy:</p>
  7280.  
  7281.  
  7282.  
  7283. <p>Yeah, it&#8217;s so true. So I think one thing that&#8217;s been cool to see is I feel that a lot of the relationships that we&#8217;re seeing between grad students and undergrads, orgs in the strike now, started to form during the strike. I met Salma and Zainab and a lot of these people originally in meetings for undergrads to help figure out how to organize to support our grad student labor strike, which has been really cool to see how the coalition has been formed over time. And I think for at least the graduate student perspective has really built from that and from our strike and that relationship&#8217;s forming on our end. So GEO and grad students have been a part of the coalition that&#8217;s formed of over 90 student organizations around Palestine, and we&#8217;ve been working together with undergrads for the past six months and beyond and have been a part of this encampment and the work going on the ground as well.</p>
  7284.  
  7285.  
  7286.  
  7287. <p>We have folks continuing the organizing work, whether it&#8217;s managing HQ, helping manage volunteers, and I think there&#8217;s this real coalition between undergrads and graduate workers where we&#8217;re seeing those organizing skills transfer and we&#8217;re being able to learn from each other and really build from a lot of the things we learned throughout the strike are actually very transferable to actually having operations flow on the ground now at the encampment, which has been really fun to see.</p>
  7288.  
  7289.  
  7290.  
  7291. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  7292.  
  7293.  
  7294.  
  7295. <p>Man, this takes me way back. It feels like years ago, like decades ago, but it really wasn&#8217;t that long ago in 2017, 2018, when I, as the co-founder with other folks of the campus anti-fascist network, were working with this big Stop Spencer coalition that included GEO, that included LEO, the Lecturers Union, the college Dems, IWW student groups. That was back in 2017 when Richard Spencer, alt-right leader leading marches at Charlottesville, was doing his college tour and wanted to bring his Nazis and fascists into our community. And one of the things that was so beautiful and significant about that struggle is that we all came together doing what y&#8217;all were doing, but y&#8217;all are doing it 24/7. We did teach-ins, we had folks talking about the history of fascism, different kinds of protests, and that was for a block of eight hours. I can&#8217;t imagine how you&#8217;re filling that program continuously 24/7.</p>
  7296.  
  7297.  
  7298.  
  7299. <p>But one of the things that was so incredible that came out of that struggle was we were all united around this central position, no fascists on campus and we&#8217;re going to protect our communities. But out of that, then when the lecturers were going up for their contract negotiations, the undergrads were there at their events, they were showing up. Those bonds of solidarity are so crucial to build and they can really build into something bigger than the sum of its parts. And that&#8217;s what y&#8217;all are doing now as we speak and it&#8217;s incredible to hear that as an alum and as someone who&#8217;s been there doing work like that, but not nearly at this level, not so long ago, but it feels like forever ago.</p>
  7300.  
  7301.  
  7302.  
  7303. <p>I wanted to pick up on one thing that you all were saying regarding that. Salma, you mentioned the unique and pivotal role that universities play in this struggle. Anti-genocide, ceasefire demonstrations have been going on for the past seven months. I covered the two biggest ones in DC, but this is an escalation in tactics. This is a change harkening back to the days of &#8217;68 where you saw student protests really move the needle in terms of ending the war at Vietnam. I wanted to ask if you could talk a little more about that. What are the conversations y&#8217;all are having, what is the messaging to other members of the campus community about why this needs to happen on campuses, what the university can do in this struggle and why students are doing what they&#8217;re doing to apply that pressure?</p>
  7304.  
  7305.  
  7306.  
  7307. <p>Salma Hamamy:</p>
  7308.  
  7309.  
  7310.  
  7311. <p>Yeah, that&#8217;s a great question. So a lot of times people are, unfortunately, unaware of the fact that our universities, especially universities that happen to have billions of dollars invested within their endowment, are directly tied to weapons manufacturers, war companies that are responsible for the creation and delivery of these weapons that we are seeing being dropped on the Gaza Strip and all throughout Palestine, including AI technology that is used to uphold the apartheid system that is used against Palestinians. So for example, the University of Michigan has a $6 billion endowment, and it&#8217;s very unfortunate that despite us being a public university and despite the necessity of our funding needing to be made public, it is, for the vast majority, private and hidden and secretive. So it is nearly impossible for us to even dig deep into what particular companies the university is invested in. However, we have been able to generate a couple answers through our extensive research team.</p>
  7312.  
  7313.  
  7314.  
  7315. <p>We created an endowment guide that is a little over 50-pages long that details why the University of Michigan is complicit and how it is complicit. And as we see, universities across the United States are not just invested in the form of financial investments, but also academic partnerships. For example, with NYU Tel Aviv exchange programs and other academic exchanges that, if we were to be able to implement these boycotts, it could severely isolate Israel&#8217;s academics if major institutions around the world were to cease their partnerships. And unfortunately, a lot of these partnerships are completely discriminatory. So the university is partnering with these companies whom would inevitably exclude a huge demographic of their student body because it&#8217;s made only for a particular group.</p>
  7316.  
  7317.  
  7318.  
  7319. <p>So while we have these encampments going up and all of these demands for divestment, it is because by forcing our universities to divest, it applies immense amount of pressure on the Zionist state because, unfortunately, the only thing that talks to them or the only thing that they listen to is money. So that is why we are demanding for divestment and demanding for the cut of any and all companies that presently or in the future hold and maintain the war crimes that we have seen put against so many civilians, and that has cost so many lives to be taken away.</p>
  7320.  
  7321.  
  7322.  
  7323. <p>Ember McCoy:</p>
  7324.  
  7325.  
  7326.  
  7327. <p>Too, I&#8217;ll just add for a numbers perspective, the University of Michigan has a $17 billion endowment. That was a critical number that we talked about during the grad labor strike as well. It&#8217;s one of the largest public endowments in the country, and as Salma said, $6 billion of that is invested indirectly or directly in the Israeli occupation, whether it&#8217;s arms companies, directly in other companies that are supporting that in currency and [inaudible 00:19:07], which has been a huge research component for grad students and undergrads throughout the last couple months to try to figure out and do the digging on what exactly those numbers are, that it&#8217;s all been done on student labor, which has been really cool to see, I think. And now, that&#8217;s the pivotal demand of our encampment. And I think there are questions sometimes about why divestment, why is that the main demand? But for us, as students at this university, it&#8217;s really profoundly material.</p>
  7328.  
  7329.  
  7330.  
  7331. <p>This is the most immediate mechanism that we have access to as students, that feels relevant to us as students. And obviously, we don&#8217;t plan on just stopping there. There&#8217;s so much more than divestment that needs to be done. But these campaigns, especially when you couple them with [inaudible 00:20:00] and all these other universities with students all calling for divestment, it has the potential to divert hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, away from the genocide. So I think, for us, it&#8217;s a very pivotal point that feels very tangible as students who are contributing financially to the university.</p>
  7332.  
  7333.  
  7334.  
  7335. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  7336.  
  7337.  
  7338.  
  7339. <p>And just to make sure listeners are following along, what we&#8217;re saying is that the University of Michigan has a nearly $18 billion endowment, 17.9 billion as of 2024. And what student researchers have uncovered is that nearly $6 billion of that endowment is invested in private equity venture capital firms that own stakes in US military contractors and Israeli companies that are complicit in the ongoing genocide of Gaza. And we will include links in the show notes for folks who want to look more into that. But yeah, this is a key point that we&#8217;ve seen organizing on campuses focused on, is like, what are our universities doing with these endowments? What are our tuition dollars being invested in? Do we have a say over that?</p>
  7340.  
  7341.  
  7342.  
  7343. <p>We see this crop up when there are demands over safety measures on campus. Do we want police or do we want more trained health professionals responding when the university says we don&#8217;t have money for that, we say, what about your $18 billion endowment? These are the things that folks listening have heard come up on our different reporting over the years on campus struggles. But yeah, these universities, over the past four decades, have amassed massive endowments that coincides with the public disinvestment in higher education, turning so many of our institutions of higher ed into essentially hedge funds with classrooms attached to them. But that&#8217;s a subject for another day.</p>
  7344.  
  7345.  
  7346.  
  7347. <p>I wanted to ask, with the few minutes that I&#8217;ve got you left, I know I got to let y&#8217;all go. First, what has been the response from the administration and the campus community writ large? Of course, we&#8217;re seeing videos of Zionist protesters trying to infiltrate these encampments, instigate violence. The media right now is trying to portray these encampments as blood-thirsty, Hamas-led insurgencies, so on and so forth. So I just wanted to ask if y&#8217;all can comment on that, give us on the ground perspective of the response from the university, the campus community, and also if you have any final words about where this is going or where you feel it needs to go or where you&#8217;re seeing it go with these other encampments across the country and now spreading across the world.</p>
  7348.  
  7349.  
  7350.  
  7351. <p>Salma Hamamy:</p>
  7352.  
  7353.  
  7354.  
  7355. <p>So the Palestinian movement and anyone who partakes within this movement is automatically vilified, dehumanized, and demonized. And whenever we see any action that is led by the Palestinian movement, the media automatically tries to flip the narrative. However, what we&#8217;ve seen is that there have been cracks that are now breaking their entire outward persona that they&#8217;re trying to create regarding our movement and just visibly by looking within the encampment and within all of these encampments, a significant portion of our participants are Jewish students. And so when the media and when our universities say that it is making Jewish students feel unsafe, we have to ask that question, well, which Jewish students are you referring to, because there has been immense programming and immense amount of leadership coming from these encampments by anti-Zionist Jews who say, we are not going to allow this genocide to happen in our name.</p>
  7356.  
  7357.  
  7358.  
  7359. <p>So it has been a clear, hypocritical standing point that it is truly not about protecting a particular group or protecting freedom of speech, it is entirely protecting finance and profit over people and also protecting white supremacy and whatever ideologies that they&#8217;re using to uphold these oppressive systems that continue to infringe on our rights as students and also infringe on our rights as American citizens and on our families back home. So what we&#8217;re seeing within these encampments is that we are completely shattering whatever framework that they have tried to use against us. And that is why there has been so much force pushed onto these students because our simple statement and demand and our ability to rupture whatever stereotype that they have implemented is the very beginning to disrupting the entirety of the system. And that is why we&#8217;re seeing such brutalization against these students and that is why we&#8217;re seeing the encampments face so much repression because it takes something as simple as unity amongst several different communities to free the world at some point.</p>
  7360.  
  7361.  
  7362.  
  7363. <p>So while these encampments might seem to some as just a bunch of tents set up that is causing ruckus on campus, it is helping us envision a better world. And it is helping us defeat whatever narrative that has been prolonging for so many decades. And it&#8217;s just been an incredible experience seeing that and being able to watch us grow and defy the odds. And one of the things that has been so enjoyable to see is that the university fears us because of how little we fear them. And the university is so breakable because of how unbreakable the students have been, and that has entirely manifested within these encampments and throughout the world.</p>
  7364.  
  7365.  
  7366.  
  7367. <p>Ember McCoy:</p>
  7368.  
  7369.  
  7370.  
  7371. <p>And I&#8217;ll just echo what Salma had said, that I feel that the encampment has been the time where I feel the university has felt like truly a public university for the first time. As Salma talked about, there&#8217;s been educational programming and skill-building going on every single day, literally through programming, but also through the organizing and the mutual aid networks and the community that&#8217;s been formed. And I hope that people who are thinking about these encampments, coming by them or stopping by, can see and put a face to the organizing and the activism that&#8217;s happening and seeing this incredible community of students that are putting on this work. And I think for me, especially, it&#8217;s been interesting to think about over the last year through the strike and through all the repression on campus, it&#8217;s been really hard sometimes to be someone who wants to stay in academia as a grad worker.</p>
  7372.  
  7373.  
  7374.  
  7375. <p>But I think this past week, I&#8217;ve been thinking a lot about how actually this encampment has given me so much hope of the undergrads and all the learning and the work that people are willing to put in to show that we&#8217;re not willing to placate the university and try to really push this space in the leverage that we can to be the university that we want it to be and that we know it can be. And I think that comes in different forms. We want the encampment to be a space where people can see who the people are that are actually working on this campaign that can be a reminder of the genocide, to be a visual reminder of what&#8217;s happening, very present and disrupting our lives, because it often isn&#8217;t otherwise. But then can also be this protest space where people can see that we&#8217;re continuing to call for divestment. And we&#8217;ve been trying to do that for the last six months, plus 20 years, and we&#8217;re ready for the university to actually act on it.</p>
  7376.  
  7377.  
  7378.  
  7379. <p>Salma Hamamy:</p>
  7380.  
  7381.  
  7382.  
  7383. <p>And for anyone who is interested in getting more involved in supporting the encampment, please visit our Instagram at SAFEUMICH. That is S-A-F-E-U-M-I-C-H. We have several links for folks to get involved, to donate. We have fundraisers that we are currently trying to put forth, especially to help evacuate some families in Gaza because they are our topmost priority. And we also have a bunch of email zaps that people can send to the administration, ensuring that the university protects its students and heeds our demands, and finally divests from genocide.</p>
  7384.  
  7385.  
  7386.  
  7387. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  7388.  
  7389.  
  7390.  
  7391. <p>Well, Salma, Ember, thank you both so much for joining us today on The Real News Network. I really appreciate it. This will not be the last time that we report on the encampment at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor campus, nor the Student Intifada that we are seeing spread across the country and increasingly across the globe. In fact, we will be hosting a Real News live stream later this week on Thursday where we will be getting updates and check-ins from other encampments, including, hopefully, U of M, my alma mater there in Ann Arbor. So please, tune into The Real News YouTube channel at noon on Thursday.</p>
  7392.  
  7393.  
  7394.  
  7395. <p>Please share this interview as far and wide as you can. Please reach out to us if you, yourself, have connections or stories that you&#8217;d like us to investigate. And we are going to be here, we&#8217;re going to keep focusing on lifting up the voices from the grassroots, from the front lines of struggle in the US and around the world. For The Real News Network, this is Maximillian Alvarez signing off. Before you go, please head on over to therealnews.com/donate. Become a supporter of our work so we can keep bringing you important coverage and conversations just like this.</p>
  7396.  
  7397.  
  7398.  
  7399. <p>Thank you so much for listening. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other. Solidarity forever.</p>
  7400. ]]></content:encoded>
  7404. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312837</post-id> </item>
  7405. <item>
  7406. <title>How surgeons remotely assisted their colleagues in Gaza</title>
  7407. <link>https://therealnews.com/how-surgeons-remotely-assisted-their-colleagues-in-gaza</link>
  7409. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc Steiner]]></dc:creator>
  7410. <pubDate>Tue, 30 Apr 2024 15:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
  7411. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: International]]></category>
  7412. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  7413. <category><![CDATA[The Marc Steiner Show]]></category>
  7414. <category><![CDATA[Gaza]]></category>
  7415. <category><![CDATA[Israel]]></category>
  7416. <category><![CDATA[Palestine]]></category>
  7417. <category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
  7418. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312832</guid>
  7419.  
  7420. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A surgeon operates on a Palestinian man, injured during the Israeli attacks, at Nasser Hospital in Khan Yunis, Gaza on November 16, 2023. Photo by Abed Zagout/Anadolu via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Surgeons Osaid Alser and Simon Fitzgerald speak about supporting surgeons at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis—where mass graves of Palestinians massacred by Israeli soldiers have since been discovered.]]></description>
  7421. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="A surgeon operates on a Palestinian man, injured during the Israeli attacks, at Nasser Hospital in Khan Yunis, Gaza on November 16, 2023. Photo by Abed Zagout/Anadolu via Getty Images" decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=300%2C200&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=768%2C512&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=2048%2C1365&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=1200%2C800&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=600%2C400&amp;ssl=1 600w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=1568%2C1045&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=2000%2C1333&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?resize=400%2C267&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/GettyImages-1789164655-scaled.jpg?fit=1024%2C683&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  7422. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  7423. <iframe title="Spotify Embed: How surgeons remotely assisted their colleagues in Gaza" style="border-radius: 12px" width="100%" height="152" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture" loading="lazy" src="https://open.spotify.com/embed/episode/4yIXW4RDKLldtjIkCpMGZk?si=a467f77e6a5b4379&#038;utm_source=oembed"></iframe>
  7424. </div></figure>
  7425.  
  7426.  
  7427.  
  7428. <p class="has-drop-cap">Seven months of brutal Israeli genocide in Gaza have obliterated the local healthcare system, as the IDF has repeatedly targeted and destroyed hospitals and clinics in its military operations. When healthcare infrastructure was still standing, Gaza&#8217;s healthcare workers faced the challenge of treating grave injuries requiring specialist care. To get around this issue, surgeons around the world have remotely coached their colleagues in Gaza, using messaging services like Whatsapp to lend their expertise in the treatment of particularly severe injuries. Surgeons Osaid Alser and Simon Fitzgerald join <em>The Marc Steiner Show</em> to discuss their experience offering this remote support to their colleagues at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis—where shortly after this recording, mass graves containing hundreds of bodies of Palestinians executed by the IDF were found.</p>
  7429.  
  7430.  
  7431.  
  7432. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  7433. <p>Studio Production: Cameron Granadino<br>Post-Production: Alina Nehlich</p>
  7434. </blockquote>
  7435.  
  7436.  
  7437.  
  7438. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  7439.  
  7440.  
  7441.  
  7442. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  7443.  
  7444.  
  7445.  
  7446. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em><a href="https://therealnews.slack.com/archives/D1A1JJW90/p1710858407528409"></a></p>
  7447.  
  7448.  
  7449.  
  7450. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7451.  
  7452.  
  7453.  
  7454. <p>Welcome to the Marc Steiner Show here on the Real News. It&#8217;s good to have you all with us. And we continue our coverage of the war in Gaza and our series Not In Our Name. It&#8217;s especially relevant now to me in this week as we celebrate Passover. Our Passovers bring our families together, our friends together. And for our family, it&#8217;s not just to read the story of Moses, but to reflect on the notion of liberation, to talk about the ongoing slaughter and the war of destruction in Gaza as Jews saying, &#8220;No, not in our name.&#8221;</p>
  7455.  
  7456.  
  7457.  
  7458. <p>And we use this Passover to fight for the lives of those in Gaza and to end this horrendous war. And today, we talk with two physicians, Dr. Simon Fitzgerald and Dr. Osaid Alser. Simon Fitzgerald is a trauma surgeon at King&#8217;s County Hospital, an academic appointment at SUNY in Brooklyn. He&#8217;s also co-host of the radio show Trauma Code on WBAI.</p>
  7459.  
  7460.  
  7461.  
  7462. <p>And Dr. Osaid Alser is a Palestinian from Gaza training in general surgery in Texas. He&#8217;s also a clinical researcher with an interest in global surgery, surgical capacity assessment and capacity building in war-torn areas in low to middle-income countries. You&#8217;ll hear us talk about the Israeli attacks on hospitals in Gaza, the absolute devastating carnage that killed wounded patients, civilians, and medical personnel defying international law.</p>
  7463.  
  7464.  
  7465.  
  7466. <p>The day after we recorded, as reported in The Guardian, Ravina Shamdasani spokesperson for the UN high Commissioner for Human Rights, said 310 bodies were found on Nasser hospital grounds buried in waste, some bound, some naked, women and the wounded among them. Then another 35 were found. Who knows how many more will be found on the grounds of Nasser or Al-Shifa hospitals or any of the devastated, destroyed hospitals in Gaza?</p>
  7467.  
  7468.  
  7469.  
  7470. <p>Now, Israel denies these stories, saying it&#8217;s all, &#8220;Baseless and unfounded.&#8221; What&#8217;s occurring now is a violation of international and humanitarian law. As this story unfolds, we&#8217;ll bring you more in-depth coverage from Gaza, from Palestine, from Israel, from those who live and experience it and the activists working to find a way to the future. And gentlemen, welcome. Good to have you both with us.</p>
  7471.  
  7472.  
  7473.  
  7474. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7475.  
  7476.  
  7477.  
  7478. <p>Thanks for having me.</p>
  7479.  
  7480.  
  7481.  
  7482. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7483.  
  7484.  
  7485.  
  7486. <p>Thank you for having me too.</p>
  7487.  
  7488.  
  7489.  
  7490. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7491.  
  7492.  
  7493.  
  7494. <p>Let me just take a step back for a moment to begin to explain to people listening to us now what this idea of global surgery is and just what the two of you did to assist surgeons in Gaza while here in the United States. Whoever wants to start. Doctor Alser, why don&#8217;t you begin?</p>
  7495.  
  7496.  
  7497.  
  7498. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7499.  
  7500.  
  7501.  
  7502. <p>Global surgery is a field that really flourished and started as a separate concept in 2015 when The Lancet, which is one of the most popular medical journals, in collaboration with the WHO, created the Lancet Commission on Global Surgery. And this is basically a way to enhance surgical capacity and surgical care in terms of safety and delivery, especially in low-to-middle income countries.</p>
  7503.  
  7504.  
  7505.  
  7506. <p>I&#8217;m interested in global surgery, and that came from me being a Palestinian, first as a medical student, then as a physician, to basically help out my country. When this genocide started in Gaza back in October, we really tried, especially being from Gaza and being away in the US, tried to help out as much as I can. And then, in late January, early February, we had a webinar where we had my cousin actually Dr. Khaled Alser, who&#8217;s a general surgeon at Nasser Hospital, and we can talk about that later, who&#8217;s now abducted unfortunately by the Israeli army, basically because he was the only general surgeon at that time, he wanted help.</p>
  7507.  
  7508.  
  7509.  
  7510. <p>He created just assembled a WhatsApp group, started with just a few people from his followers on Instagram. And then, so I joined him and we recruited surgeons from across the world. And not just surgeons, intensivists, like other specialties as well. But really, the focus was to help out in managing patients with traumatic injuries. When we started that group, the aim was to help him when he is facing really tough, challenging, traumatic cases that even trauma surgeons in the US struggle dealing with those.</p>
  7511.  
  7512.  
  7513.  
  7514. <p>We discuss a few cases really like neurosurgery cases where Khaled is not trained in neurosurgery, but he managed to operate on those patients fixing a head bleed and opening a skull to evacuate the bleed, just from a few hands and short videos that were sent from trauma surgeons and neurosurgeons from other countries. So really, the process was to create a source for him to manage those traumatic injuries.</p>
  7515.  
  7516.  
  7517.  
  7518. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7519.  
  7520.  
  7521.  
  7522. <p>Simon, let me bring you into this. Reading the article the two of you wrote for The Guardian, for folks reading, two things, I think, would strike them a, almost unfathomable to think that surgeons from 3,000, 5,000 miles away, 3,000 miles away can actually work with a surgeon alone who&#8217;s never done this surgery before to save lives at a hospital in Gaza. It&#8217;s mind-numbing, in some ways, to think about that.</p>
  7523.  
  7524.  
  7525.  
  7526. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7527.  
  7528.  
  7529.  
  7530. <p>Well if I can, thanks first of all, Marc, for having us. And also thank you, Osaid. I know I&#8217;m a guest, but I&#8217;m a Baltimore guy on the radio with Marc Steiner and you did this after I asked you, so thank you. I feel like a co-host almost.</p>
  7531.  
  7532.  
  7533.  
  7534. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7535.  
  7536.  
  7537.  
  7538. <p>Good. Go right ahead. Please be.</p>
  7539.  
  7540.  
  7541.  
  7542. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7543.  
  7544.  
  7545.  
  7546. <p>Having you on the radio. And I just wanted to &#8230; This may be the first time I&#8217;m on real news, so thank you also, Marc, I really appreciate your platform, but also your history. You have a voice that&#8217;s represented Baltimore for a long time and resonates in a certain way. And I just want to introduce myself real quick. I&#8217;m a Baltimore guy, graduate from Baltimore Polytechnic Institute. I have surgical training in New York and surgical critical care training from Hopkins.</p>
  7547.  
  7548.  
  7549.  
  7550. <p>And my involvement in any meaningful way with medical care in Gaza and the Palestinian medical institutions and movement is all through Osaid. And I think, to his credit, Osaid, even as a trainee in Texas, has really been a leader in expanding capacity in the face of really genocidal violence. And Osaid said that, and I&#8217;m definitely going to co-sign that, and I&#8217;ve spoken for hours at a time on why I think that&#8217;s appropriate from the medical and legal history.</p>
  7551.  
  7552.  
  7553.  
  7554. <p>But the point is that I think our work together, I think, has been very meaningful and I think it&#8217;s really an honor to be on the air with you. And Marc, I want you to take back over, but as we record this, we&#8217;re just days after a mass grave being uncovered in Nasser Hospital, which is the hospital where our collaboration took place in January and February, when Osaid&#8217;s cousin Khaled, the only surgeon left there, a literally decimated medical institution at that time. There used to be 10 surgeons plus trainees, now there&#8217;s just one.</p>
  7555.  
  7556.  
  7557.  
  7558. <p>And I think it&#8217;s telling at this moment, particularly since Khaled, the subject of that article that you mentioned in The Guardian and also co-author on an article we haven&#8217;t talked about yet that we submitted to The Lancet and is under consideration, is incommunicado, essentially disappeared the way a South American dictatorship would do to a physician they felt was a political threat. I really want to thank you for having us on the air and this is a very important topic in this very important moment.</p>
  7559.  
  7560.  
  7561.  
  7562. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7563.  
  7564.  
  7565.  
  7566. <p>Well, thanks for that. And this is important, I guess. It is extremely important. And when I read the article and then heard from others about what was going on in Gaza at the hospitals, and when you detail in your article about the surgery that Dr. Khaled Alser had to do alone with help from you all thousands of miles away, from abdominal explorations of a three-year-old child who was hit by the Israeli bombs, and a nine-year-old child who needed amputation of a leg, and just all the stories in there, to me, it&#8217;s almost unfathomable to understand how a single surgeon in a Gazan hospital with the help of surgeons as yourselves to get through all this.</p>
  7567.  
  7568.  
  7569.  
  7570. <p>In the midst of a war where thousands of Gazans are being killed, many of them women and children and most of them non-combatants, no matter who they are. And I&#8217;m a son of a surgeon, so it&#8217;s almost unfathomable to me to think about how that could be.</p>
  7571.  
  7572.  
  7573.  
  7574. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7575.  
  7576.  
  7577.  
  7578. <p>If I could respond to that briefly, and I&#8217;d like to hear what Osaid says about it, but what really troubles me about what we saw working in support of the surgeons at Nasser Hospital at Khan Yunis, what really bothered me that was, at the time, one of the most well-equipped and capacitated hospitals in the midst of the genocidal violence, and it is basically no longer functional.</p>
  7579.  
  7580.  
  7581.  
  7582. <p>And that&#8217;s in the second-largest city in Gaza. And we really don&#8217;t know of any institution or group that can provide adequate medical care to the capital Gaza City, in addition to people who are providing aid including International World Central Kitchen can just be murdered systematically with armed drones and artificial intelligence. What we don&#8217;t know, what we haven&#8217;t seen, what we can&#8217;t treat is really what bothers me more. I don&#8217;t know. Osaid, do you want to add anything to that?</p>
  7583.  
  7584.  
  7585.  
  7586. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7587.  
  7588.  
  7589.  
  7590. <p>No, absolutely. It&#8217;s sad because for me, when I was a medical student, I trained in that hospital. I trained at Al-Shifa hospital as well. So to me, that was my second home. My home actually was destroyed and my second home was destroyed as well. So really, I lost pretty much everything in Gaza, like memories. And my medical school was destroyed as well, the other medical school was destroyed. So the entire healthcare system is pretty much destroyed.</p>
  7591.  
  7592.  
  7593.  
  7594. <p>The remaining healthcare units are basically just ruins of previously functioning hospital, or I want to say correct myself, partially functioning hospitals. Because let&#8217;s not forget even before this started, the healthcare system is pretty much collapsed from before. Healthcare workers, at baseline, they don&#8217;t receive salaries. Sometimes they receive just a couple of hundreds from random donations.</p>
  7595.  
  7596.  
  7597.  
  7598. <p>The supplies at baseline, everything is lacking, like even normal saline, just the fluid that we normally use on the daily basis. Cancer care, surgical instruments, even access to outside facility. The way, for example, we do it in the US, if a hospital is struggling and you want to refer a patient, you can easily call that hospital and you transfer the patient. But in Gaza, you want to transfer a patient, then you have to go through Egypt or Israel or other countries and it&#8217;s super hard.</p>
  7599.  
  7600.  
  7601.  
  7602. <p>My late dad who passed away from other reasons, his permit was denied. My aunt who had early stage uterine cancer, she was denied a referral and she died from metastasis spreading cancer to her body. And this time, Nasser hospital, it was pretty functioning hospital before. If you want to get major surgery, even Whipple surgery, which is a major surgery where you restrict part of the pancreas when you have cancer there, you get it there because there are really good surgeons there with the lack of instruments and all of that.</p>
  7603.  
  7604.  
  7605.  
  7606. <p>And then, all the senior surgeons had to leave, and some junior surgeons who basically live nearby. Nasser hospital, it was pretty functioning hospital. You&#8217;d get major surgery in it before. You&#8217;d get pretty much standard of care. But right now, I mean it&#8217;s no longer functioning. And it was intentionally man-made destruction of the hospital.</p>
  7607.  
  7608.  
  7609.  
  7610. <p>If we go back three months ago, initially Nasser Hospital was attacked, was invaded by the Israeli military. Patients, doctors were either killed or abducted or displaced. And Khaled, he was one of them. He was abducted for a brief period of time and then they released him about 24 hours later. After they basically destroyed most of the hospitals and displaced the staff, it was for brief period of time, for a few days, non-functional.</p>
  7611.  
  7612.  
  7613.  
  7614. <p>Then the surgeons, some of the surgeons including Khaled, came back to the hospital. They tried to basically make it more functional so that they receive and treat patients. But then, because of that, they punished him and they abducted him. They killed staff, patients. And as Simon said, it&#8217;s so horrible. I can&#8217;t imagine it, as a Palestinian from Gaza seeing patients with fully catheter, like urinary catheter and casts and bandages around them?</p>
  7615.  
  7616.  
  7617.  
  7618. <p>And this is just from today, they were extracted from under the &#8230; They were buried like in a mass grave inside the hospital. This is horrendous. I have no words to say. I don&#8217;t know. This is just beyond words. And I don&#8217;t want to get too emotional, but it&#8217;s just what happened at Nasser Hospital, previously at Al-Shifa Hospital is just so wrong. And we should all, as a medical community, even non-medical community, we should all oppose that because this is just against humanity.</p>
  7619.  
  7620.  
  7621.  
  7622. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7623.  
  7624.  
  7625.  
  7626. <p>The stories that both of you wrote about in the article, picking up on what you just said, Osaid, horrendous, the kind of traumatic injuries, the deaths taking place in the hospitals themselves, it&#8217;s almost unfathomable. The question is: here the two of you are doing everything you can to, or did when you could, work with your cousin, the surgeon, to do surgeries he&#8217;s never done before to try to save people&#8217;s lives.</p>
  7627.  
  7628.  
  7629.  
  7630. <p>I&#8217;ve covered people who were in the midst of the war in Bosnia and other places, but I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;ve ever heard stories like this of hospitals being attacked and destroyed, of a single surgeon with the help of surgeons thousands of miles away, helping him to do surgeries to save people&#8217;s lives.</p>
  7631.  
  7632.  
  7633.  
  7634. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7635.  
  7636.  
  7637.  
  7638. <p>If I could, Marc, I think part of what&#8217;s going on in this moment has to do with the access to phones and videos and the ability to document it. And also, that technology allowed us to collaborate. And also the technology of the killing fields in Gaza is also something that&#8217;s really part of that same Black Mirror episode of what&#8217;s going on. But one thing that I wanted to say earlier about Osaid, Dr. Alser, one reason why a trainee in Texas is the leader right now on this kind of collaboration is the complete absence of our leadership of hospitals, of medical institutions, organizations.</p>
  7639.  
  7640.  
  7641.  
  7642. <p>The committee of interns and residents, the labor union for residents, called for a ceasefire relatively early to their credit. The Israeli, what&#8217;s it called, Physicians for Human Rights, has been at the forefront calling for habeas corpus, return of physicians who have been taken prisoner, abducted, disappeared, until we can speak to them or they can speak for themselves. I don&#8217;t know what to call it.</p>
  7643.  
  7644.  
  7645.  
  7646. <p>And there have been reports also since we&#8217;re talking about physicians, of Israeli physicians that have been staffing the detainee centers talking about just routine hand amputations because of extreme abuse and neglect in handcuffing prisoners. And I consider, our collaboration with Khaled hasn&#8217;t ended until he comes back here and tells me, &#8220;No thanks, I don&#8217;t need your help anymore,&#8221; we demand that he be presented and returned and allowed to treat his patients and allow us to talk to him and to continue the work that we described in The Guardian and we&#8217;re hopefully going to have published in a medical journal like The Lancet, and that work continues.</p>
  7647.  
  7648.  
  7649.  
  7650. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7651.  
  7652.  
  7653.  
  7654. <p>And if I may add?</p>
  7655.  
  7656.  
  7657.  
  7658. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7659.  
  7660.  
  7661.  
  7662. <p>Go ahead, Osaid.</p>
  7663.  
  7664.  
  7665.  
  7666. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7667.  
  7668.  
  7669.  
  7670. <p>If that&#8217;s okay with Marc. Khaled is just a representation of many healthcare workers, including doctors and nurses and paramedics who have been abducted and still abducted. The exact number, we don&#8217;t have an exact number, but at least from just our network on the ground, at least there&#8217;s still hundreds healthcare workers who are still abducted for no reason.</p>
  7671.  
  7672.  
  7673.  
  7674. <p>I guess the only reason, because they stayed in those hospitals despite asking them to leave, which is essentially abandoning their patients. They&#8217;re really doing their job and more than their job. And then, not just abduction, but killing as well. Right now, the number is around 500 of healthcare workers who were killed. Most of them were on duty. And we&#8217;re not just talking about consultants and chairs of departments and super, super important to mention, but also medical students, also junior doctors who decided to just stay and work. They were not asked to, but they really just volunteered to stay and help out because otherwise the hospital would completely collapse without them.</p>
  7675.  
  7676.  
  7677.  
  7678. <p>And then displacement. There&#8217;s a lot of doctors, healthcare workers, really, it&#8217;s a really tough decision. My mom, my dad, they had to go south to Rafah. And then, do I just stay in north and worry about my families? Some of them decide just go south. And some of them, they are now at a European hospital, although they&#8217;re not from the south, they&#8217;re from north. It&#8217;s just a lot of dehumanization of those healthcare workers who are basically healthcare workers. They&#8217;re just trying to do their job. I just wanted to add that just to make sure we are not forgetting the many, many healthcare workers who have been subjected to the brutal treatment.</p>
  7679.  
  7680.  
  7681.  
  7682. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7683.  
  7684.  
  7685.  
  7686. <p>What do the two of you do now? And other men and women like you at this moment? Given the reality on the ground, the tens of thousands who have been killed, in the hospitals that have been decimated, the doctors, nurses, staff, killed, arrested, hospitals being torn apart, blown apart. A, where does this struggle go now? But what happens to you, to physicians like you, who are in the midst of this struggle but thousands of miles away? What do you do next?</p>
  7687.  
  7688.  
  7689.  
  7690. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7691.  
  7692.  
  7693.  
  7694. <p>Well, Osaid, I&#8217;d like you to answer because you just told me about some of your plans and I&#8217;ve been getting some surgeons to help you. Do you want to talk about the curriculum you&#8217;re setting up-</p>
  7695.  
  7696.  
  7697.  
  7698. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7699.  
  7700.  
  7701.  
  7702. <p>Of course.</p>
  7703.  
  7704.  
  7705.  
  7706. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7707.  
  7708.  
  7709.  
  7710. <p>&#8230; for students whose hospitals and medical schools have been destroyed?</p>
  7711.  
  7712.  
  7713.  
  7714. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7715.  
  7716.  
  7717.  
  7718. <p>Sure, please do. Yes.</p>
  7719.  
  7720.  
  7721.  
  7722. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7723.  
  7724.  
  7725.  
  7726. <p>Yes. That&#8217;s one of the projects that we&#8217;ve been working on for a while. I work with an organization called OxPal, which stands for Oxford Palestine, and it&#8217;s a collaboration between Oxford University and medical students and the doctors in Gaza. And that was established many years ago. Because of the needs for trauma training and the difficulty of going there and training surgeons, especially with the permits and all of that, so we decided to create an entire curriculum to teach trauma surgery.</p>
  7727.  
  7728.  
  7729.  
  7730. <p>And when we say trauma surgery, that includes how to manage gunshots and blast injuries and how to stop the bleed and all of that. We designed a curriculum for both medical students and doctors and it&#8217;s specifically to simplify trauma surgery for them, especially those who don&#8217;t have trauma experience. And just so that you know, in Gaza baseline, there is no trauma surgeons. Zero. There&#8217;s zero trauma surgeons in Gaza that are baseline. And now, there is only general surgeon who have experienced in trauma surgeons, but none who&#8217;s fellowship trained like Dr. Fitzgerald.</p>
  7731.  
  7732.  
  7733.  
  7734. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7735.  
  7736.  
  7737.  
  7738. <p>Not because they had been arrested, been killed. Why are there none?</p>
  7739.  
  7740.  
  7741.  
  7742. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7743.  
  7744.  
  7745.  
  7746. <p>From before. None because, basically, as I said, the healthcare system is pretty much collapsed from before, because of the occupation preventing surgeons from traveling and getting a fellowship and going back to help out. Or some people like myself, which I blame myself for being part of the brain drain, leaving and not going back to Gaza. Gaza lacks a lot of specialty and specialized surgeons.</p>
  7747.  
  7748.  
  7749.  
  7750. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7751.  
  7752.  
  7753.  
  7754. <p>Well, I was just going to say if Osaid wouldn&#8217;t mind, in working with Osaid, I&#8217;ve studied quite a bit and he&#8217;s been a leader in capacity assessment and building for years related to healthcare in Gaza and the West Bank. But I&#8217;ve come to understand that, for years early on, there was some Israeli investment in the hospitals in Gaza, but mostly, people traveled to Israel from Gaza to get complex treatment, even dialysis.</p>
  7755.  
  7756.  
  7757.  
  7758. <p>But sometime in the mid-2000s with the rise politically of Hamas and the tightening of the Israeli military encirclement of Gaza, all that was cut off. The dialysis patients died, cancer patients died. Since then, there&#8217;s been really a heroic, a really admirable investment in homegrown development of specialty care and basically standard of care at hospitals in Gaza. And I think that&#8217;s one reason why the Israeli military has been so intent on destroying them as an institution.</p>
  7759.  
  7760.  
  7761.  
  7762. <p>But for example, one thing that even continues to this day and continues to be frustrating, Osaid mentioned stop the bleed. And for surgeons like us, especially trauma surgeons, that means something in particular. That&#8217;s an organized campaign largely done out of American College of Surgeons Committee on Trauma to expand the capacity to stop bleeding in the field for people who&#8217;ve been shot, hit by a car, major bleed, holding pressure, tourniquets and things, for witnesses in addition to first responders. We can&#8217;t even get tourniquets to Gaza. They&#8217;ve been banned from import probably for a decade.</p>
  7763.  
  7764.  
  7765.  
  7766. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7767.  
  7768.  
  7769.  
  7770. <p>Wait, tourniquets have been banned?</p>
  7771.  
  7772.  
  7773.  
  7774. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7775.  
  7776.  
  7777.  
  7778. <p>Yeah, as a medical, they&#8217;re not allowed to be imported. That&#8217;s not on the list of allowed things that can cross the checkpoints. So they&#8217;ve been home produced in Gaza for years. But even now, surgeons who are going to European Gaza hospital, trauma surgeons who are asking American College of Surgeons, &#8220;Hey, can I get a box of tourniquets because we need them?&#8221; Are basically told no. That&#8217;s not something that ACS wants to support.</p>
  7779.  
  7780.  
  7781.  
  7782. <p>Our leadership has been really absent, and I think it&#8217;s been a little bit heartbreaking for me and probably more so for Osaid. But I think that&#8217;s the other thing that surgeons can do right now is just hold ourselves accountable, be honest, and try to extend some solidarity to our colleagues and the standard of care to people in Gaza and elsewhere in the world.</p>
  7783.  
  7784.  
  7785.  
  7786. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7787.  
  7788.  
  7789.  
  7790. <p>And therefore, if you allow me, Marc, to go back to my point, because of the lack of support from many, many organizations, leadership and all of that, so me as Palestinian and other colleagues from the US and the UK, we&#8217;re planning on developing a whole curriculum. It will be online. Unfortunately, the big problem will be the connectivity is still a problem, but it will be recorded for people who are able to join later, to basically teach how to do the resuscitation part, how to manage a bleed, how to explore an injury in the abdomen, in the chest, and vascular trauma, pediatric trauma and neurosurgeon trauma like head, spine, all of that.</p>
  7791.  
  7792.  
  7793.  
  7794. <p>It&#8217;s a full curriculum similar to ACS teaching as well, similar to the teaching that I receive here in Texas. And with the help of many surgeons including Dr. Fitzgerald and other trauma surgeons, we&#8217;re hoping to at least do something. It&#8217;s definitely not enough. It&#8217;s not like teaching it in person. It&#8217;s not like the American College or Royal College of Surgeons bringing a surgeon from Gaza to train them and then sending them back or send sending missions, like surgeons to go there and help. But really, no matter what we do, still there is a lot of things we have to do. And we still need to do a lot of work to rebuild the trauma system in Gaza.</p>
  7795.  
  7796.  
  7797.  
  7798. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7799.  
  7800.  
  7801.  
  7802. <p>I know you both are short on time. I&#8217;d like to know, I&#8217;m curious about your thoughts on where you think this goes from here, both as physicians and surgeons, and what can be done and what kind of support can be given. And B, in the human political question of where this takes us. Just to be very frank that for me, watching this as a man who grew up when I was a child with people with numbers on their arms in my living room, with stories of what happened to my family in the pogroms and the Holocaust, watching this happen and that it&#8217;s people who come from the same world that I do who are carrying this out is painful and just insanity. And that&#8217;s part of how I approach this at the moment.</p>
  7803.  
  7804.  
  7805.  
  7806. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7807.  
  7808.  
  7809.  
  7810. <p>If I may, Osaid and Marc, I have a little bit of a similar background. I&#8217;m from a Baltimore family that&#8217;s half Ashkenazi as well as half Irish.</p>
  7811.  
  7812.  
  7813.  
  7814. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7815.  
  7816.  
  7817.  
  7818. <p>We have similar backgrounds all the way around then.</p>
  7819.  
  7820.  
  7821.  
  7822. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7823.  
  7824.  
  7825.  
  7826. <p>What I&#8217;ve been thinking about, what&#8217;s been resonating with me is the concept and the historical example of Dachau. And I don&#8217;t want to overstate any connections to the Nazis or whatever, but Dachau was a concentration camp, a death camp, unlike many of them at that time was within Germany, where most of them were farther away were in places like Poland where the local population was being exterminated as well.</p>
  7827.  
  7828.  
  7829.  
  7830. <p>And the Americans who liberated Dachau write about being so shocked by piles of emaciated bodies in ovens and really horrific things that they brought in the local population to clean it up, just to make them look it in the eye and take ownership over it. And I keep thinking about, if and when &#8230; We can&#8217;t bomb Gaza forever, I don&#8217;t think. At some point, they&#8217;re going to have to stop and clean up the bodies. And that being at the same time that we&#8217;re sending munitions over from the United States, at the same time that there&#8217;s no solidarity from American physicians and a lot of world physicians, Israeli physicians have really cosigned the destruction of the healthcare system in Gaza.</p>
  7831.  
  7832.  
  7833.  
  7834. <p>And people in Baltimore and The Baltimore Sun that was just paid propaganda celebrating the destruction of hospitals by name in Gaza. This is, I think, all of our Dachau moment. We&#8217;re going to have to look at this and come to terms with what it means about us that we&#8217;re a part of this.</p>
  7835.  
  7836.  
  7837.  
  7838. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7839.  
  7840.  
  7841.  
  7842. <p>I absolutely agree.</p>
  7843.  
  7844.  
  7845.  
  7846. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7847.  
  7848.  
  7849.  
  7850. <p>And if I may add, the irony is that me as Palestinian from Gaza working in the US getting salary, paying my tax money, it goes to kill my people, to destroy my own home. So far, I lost about 10 cousins, immediate and distant cousins, from my own family. So can you imagine how difficult that is to just think about? My money goes to kill my people.</p>
  7851.  
  7852.  
  7853.  
  7854. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7855.  
  7856.  
  7857.  
  7858. <p>No, yes. I have spoken with friends who have family in Gaza, Palestinian friends here in Baltimore who I&#8217;m very close to, and there have been deaths. One of my closest friends&#8217; nephew was shot and killed on the West Bank by a settler in the midst of all this. The real question is, how do we stand up, US surgeons and people who are deeply involved in this, and we as people to stop our country in the United States from bankrolling this genocide and to really working to end this war? It&#8217;s unfathomable to me that this is just going on in front of our eyes and nobody&#8217;s doing anything to stop it.</p>
  7859.  
  7860.  
  7861.  
  7862. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7863.  
  7864.  
  7865.  
  7866. <p>Yeah, what can you do? I think that&#8217;s, for me, why it&#8217;s important to do this work and listen to people like Osaid and Khaled who are taking the leadership on this. And I think having those human relationships, listening and thinking about a shared future are valuable right now. And I think just being principled, studying what&#8217;s going on, understanding why this is a genocide, and having the moral courage and clarity to stand against genocide.</p>
  7867.  
  7868.  
  7869.  
  7870. <p>That doesn&#8217;t mean we can&#8217;t identify when there&#8217;s genocidal violence in Sudan and stand against that as well and name the villains in that conflict. We have to call our political leadership in any form we have to stop arming genocidal violence. Even if it&#8217;s unsuccessful, just be clear about it.</p>
  7871.  
  7872.  
  7873.  
  7874. <p>And for the two of you who have done this work from a distance, advising on how to these surgeries, this must be A, taking a toll on you as well, because A, you can&#8217;t do it anymore, the communications are down, you don&#8217;t really know what&#8217;s going on. And B, just the human toll of being &#8230; the stress of having to do that work at a distance and knowing what&#8217;s happening on the ground in Gaza. Osaid, do you want to start?</p>
  7875.  
  7876.  
  7877.  
  7878. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7879.  
  7880.  
  7881.  
  7882. <p>Yeah, and I just wanted to add a brief message, not necessarily for the medical community. It&#8217;s a message for the general population in America. I think the biggest thing, if you want to help out and just be a human and try to just feel what&#8217;s going on there, I think the biggest thing is just reading about what&#8217;s going on, understanding what&#8217;s going on, rather than just pretending to be, oh, there is just a conflict in the Middle East.</p>
  7883.  
  7884.  
  7885.  
  7886. <p>It bothers me a lot when I hear this term, &#8220;A conflict in the Middle East.&#8221; That&#8217;s just a very ignorant term that people who just don&#8217;t want to listen, don&#8217;t want to read about it. Educating ourselves, reading about it, listening to both sides, and then you have your own perspective. I think it&#8217;s super, super important. And once you understand it, then I&#8217;m sure everybody can help.</p>
  7887.  
  7888.  
  7889.  
  7890. <p>The biggest thing for me, I had a lot of friends from the US and from the UK and all of that, they&#8217;ve never been to Palestine. They just hear from the news, from the mainstream media, BBC, CNN, etc. And then, once they went there and visited, they visited both Palestine and Israel. And I&#8217;m not talking about Gaza, I&#8217;m talking about West Bank for example. And they went there, saw the checkpoints, saw the humiliation, saw the true meaning of apartheid in the West Bank, how being Palestinian Muslim, you cross in this side, being a Palestinian Christian, you cross on that side, being an American Western, you cross on that side. Being Jewish Israeli, you cross from that side.</p>
  7891.  
  7892.  
  7893.  
  7894. <p>And seeing that, seriously when I saw them, the amount of real honest posts on social media after they went back, I was like, &#8220;I can&#8217;t write that, honestly.&#8221; Because I&#8217;ll be detained if I fly from one country to another. People are genuine for the most part, they mean it. But they really need to understand and really need to read, and then they will have a different perspective. Unfortunately, unlike this kind of show, the majority of the mainstream media, they&#8217;re still spreading the propaganda, spreading the lies and false information, misinformation about what&#8217;s going on and trying to just show it&#8217;s a Hamas versus Israel war.</p>
  7895.  
  7896.  
  7897.  
  7898. <p>It&#8217;s not. This is just a Palestinians in general. They&#8217;re fed up with the settler occupation that has been going on since even before 1948. And things in Palestine did not start on October 7th. If your knowledge about Palestine starts after October 7th, then you&#8217;re ignorant and you haven&#8217;t read enough about it. Just go read, understand what&#8217;s going on, and then share stuff directly, help out, ask the people on the ground, see how they can get help and take it from there.</p>
  7899.  
  7900.  
  7901.  
  7902. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7903.  
  7904.  
  7905.  
  7906. <p>Were you about to say something, Simon?</p>
  7907.  
  7908.  
  7909.  
  7910. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7911.  
  7912.  
  7913.  
  7914. <p>Well, just one more thing I wanted to &#8230; Maybe we&#8217;re getting towards the end. And I&#8217;m very careful not to overstate things, but I think the amount of violence that &#8230; I just want to think about it just another second, that physicians as well as people in general and Gaza have suffered, what occurred to me, and I&#8217;ve talked about how it felt like our participation in this telemedicine effort was like a Black Mirror episode.</p>
  7915.  
  7916.  
  7917.  
  7918. <p>As the surgical nurse on the other end of it was shot in the chest and there were explosions in the hospital, and we&#8217;re watching or listening to audio and video of these things, it switched from telemedicine and forensic anthropology. But as more has come out, I think, about the use of artificial intelligence and the more we understand the purposeful targeting of leaders, including medical leaders, it occurred to me that, it&#8217;s come out, it&#8217;s been reported in Israeli press, at least that WhatsApp and other groups were being exploited to figure out connections, presumably to Hamas.</p>
  7919.  
  7920.  
  7921.  
  7922. <p>But a lot of doctors were murdered. Was that why? Somehow, if Khaled, they thought was Hamas and we&#8217;re on this WhatsApp group with him, if we were in Gaza, our lives would have been in danger. And not just in the general sense of being in a war zone, but of being targeted by armed drones and things like that. I think that&#8217;s really been eye-opening for me. And I think the only thing we can do is ask and demand that this stop and stop arming and funding that kind of violence.</p>
  7923.  
  7924.  
  7925.  
  7926. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7927.  
  7928.  
  7929.  
  7930. <p>Well, I want to thank both of you for the article that you put out, and also for this work you&#8217;ve done, have attempted to do over these months of trying to help the lone surgeon treat and help the people in the hospital in Gaza. It&#8217;s heroic work and the fact that you can no longer do it because the communications are down, it is just utterly painful.</p>
  7931.  
  7932.  
  7933.  
  7934. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7935.  
  7936.  
  7937.  
  7938. <p>And our partners are literally held incommunicado.</p>
  7939.  
  7940.  
  7941.  
  7942. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7943.  
  7944.  
  7945.  
  7946. <p>In prisons, in jails, wherever they are.</p>
  7947.  
  7948.  
  7949.  
  7950. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7951.  
  7952.  
  7953.  
  7954. <p>What do we know? We don&#8217;t know.</p>
  7955.  
  7956.  
  7957.  
  7958. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7959.  
  7960.  
  7961.  
  7962. <p>Exactly. I think what we think where he is at, I think he&#8217;s detained or abducted. But we don&#8217;t know for sure if he&#8217;s there. We don&#8217;t know 100% he&#8217;s there. We don&#8217;t know if he was killed and buried under the rubble of Nasser Hospital. We don&#8217;t know that for sure.</p>
  7963.  
  7964.  
  7965.  
  7966. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7967.  
  7968.  
  7969.  
  7970. <p>And what I&#8217;m reminded in this moment, I have a good friend in Brooklyn who was an artist from Columbia and lived in &#8230; Not Columbia, I&#8217;m sorry, in Guatemala, and lived in Guatemala during the Civil War. And as a student troublemaker, he would put up graffiti, &#8220;Vivos Los Llevaron, Vivos los Queremos.&#8221; &#8220;They took them alive, we want them alive.&#8221;</p>
  7971.  
  7972.  
  7973.  
  7974. <p>And I think that statement really applies to this moment, to our colleagues, physicians, surgeons, healthcare workers among others that are taken from Gaza. They should be presented and we should be allowed to understand what&#8217;s going on and get them back to their patients as quickly as possible.</p>
  7975.  
  7976.  
  7977.  
  7978. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  7979.  
  7980.  
  7981.  
  7982. <p>And I think for me, on this end, one of the most important things is we are taping this on the first day of Passover. And I want all the people in the Jewish world, in this country, people who are listening and who I will send this to, to hear with the words of these two physicians, Simon Fitzgerald and Osaid Alser, about what&#8217;s going on in Gaza and saying Not In Our Name. This has to end and we cannot allow this mass murder to take place. The destruction of hospitals and the entire world of Gaza is being blown apart.</p>
  7983.  
  7984.  
  7985.  
  7986. <p>I do really thank the two of you for the work you&#8217;ve done and that you continue to do. We just have to keep this in front of the American public&#8217;s consciousness to say it has to end and we have to insist on it ending. Thank you both so much for taking the time today. I know you&#8217;re very busy in your medical practices and very busy with the work as surgeons. And thank you so much for the work you&#8217;ve been doing for the people of Gaza.</p>
  7987.  
  7988.  
  7989.  
  7990. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  7991.  
  7992.  
  7993.  
  7994. <p>Well, thank you, Marc, for having us on. And I&#8217;ve felt like a long time listener, first time caller this whole time, so I appreciate you sharing your platform with us.</p>
  7995.  
  7996.  
  7997.  
  7998. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  7999.  
  8000.  
  8001.  
  8002. <p>Thank you, Marc. And thank you, Simon, for the invite as well. I appreciate that.</p>
  8003.  
  8004.  
  8005.  
  8006. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  8007.  
  8008.  
  8009.  
  8010. <p>We&#8217;re all in this together.</p>
  8011.  
  8012.  
  8013.  
  8014. <p>Osaid Alser:</p>
  8015.  
  8016.  
  8017.  
  8018. <p>Thank you.</p>
  8019.  
  8020.  
  8021.  
  8022. <p>Simon Fitzgerald:</p>
  8023.  
  8024.  
  8025.  
  8026. <p>Solidarity forever.</p>
  8027.  
  8028.  
  8029.  
  8030. <p>Marc Steiner:</p>
  8031.  
  8032.  
  8033.  
  8034. <p>Once again, I want to thank Doctors Osaid Alser and Simon Fitzgerald for joining us today. And please take the time to read the attached article they wrote for The Guardian, and we&#8217;ll be linking to the other work as well, which is well worth the read. I want to thank Cameron Grandino for running the studio session today. The brilliant audio editor, Alina Nehlich, as the magician of sound. Rosette Sewali for bringing the article to my attention, and the tireless Kayla Rivara for making it all work behind the scenes.</p>
  8035.  
  8036.  
  8037.  
  8038. <p>And everyone here at The Real News for making this show possible. For the crew here at The Real News, I&#8217;m Marc Steiner for the Marc Steiner Show and Not In Our name. Please let me know what you thought of what you heard today and what you&#8217;d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com and I&#8217;ll get right back to you. Thanks for listening and take care.</p>
  8039. ]]></content:encoded>
  8043. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312832</post-id> </item>
  8044. <item>
  8045. <title>YouTubers have filmed police for years. Has it made a difference?</title>
  8046. <link>https://therealnews.com/youtubers-have-filmed-police-for-years-has-it-made-a-difference</link>
  8048. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Taya Graham and Stephen Janis]]></dc:creator>
  8049. <pubDate>Fri, 26 Apr 2024 15:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
  8050. <category><![CDATA[Police Accountability Report]]></category>
  8051. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  8052. <category><![CDATA[Prisons and Policing]]></category>
  8053. <category><![CDATA[police accountability]]></category>
  8054. <category><![CDATA[policing]]></category>
  8055. <category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
  8056. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312531</guid>
  8057.  
  8058. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="576" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?fit=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Royce City, Texas, police are engaged in conversation with YouTube First Amendment activist Otto The Watchdog. Photo courtesy of Otto The Watchdog." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?w=1280&amp;ssl=1 1280w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=300%2C169&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=768%2C432&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=1200%2C675&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=400%2C225&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?fit=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Cop watchers James Freeman, LackLuster, The Battousai, Tom Zebra, Laura Shark, and Otto The Watchdog join a special livestream panel to discuss the impact of the grassroots cop watcher movement and the possibility of police reform in America today.]]></description>
  8059. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="576" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?fit=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Royce City, Texas, police are engaged in conversation with YouTube First Amendment activist Otto The Watchdog. Photo courtesy of Otto The Watchdog." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?w=1280&amp;ssl=1 1280w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=300%2C169&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=768%2C432&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=1200%2C675&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?resize=400%2C225&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Taya-Increased-Vibrancy-jpeg-Livestream.jpeg?fit=1024%2C576&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  8060. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  8061. <iframe title="Can YouTube change policing? Ask cop watchers JamesFreeman, LackLuster, TomZebra, LauraShark, &amp; more" width="780" height="439" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LtUn_k_ea2E?feature=oembed" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  8062. </div></figure>
  8063.  
  8064.  
  8065.  
  8066. <p class="has-drop-cap">Taya Graham and Stephen Janis commemorate five years of the <a href="https://therealnews.com/police-accountability-report" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><em>Police Accountability Report</em> </a>with this special livestream panel featuring legendary cop watchers <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@JamesFreeman1" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">James Freeman</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@LackLusterMedia" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">LackLuster</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@TheBattousaiMedia" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Battousai</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@TomZebra" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Tom Zebra</a>, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@LaurasharkCW" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Laura Shark</a>, and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@OttotheWatchdog" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Otto The Watchdog</a>. In this extended livestream, Graham and Janis host a timely discussion about the possibility of police reform, the importance and impact of cop watching, and why it&#8217;s vital that we all find ways to keep fighting for change.</p>
  8067.  
  8068.  
  8069.  
  8070. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  8071. <p>Pre-Production: Stephen Janis, Taya Graham, David Hebden<br>Studio Production: David Hebden, Cameron Granadino</p>
  8072. </blockquote>
  8073.  
  8074.  
  8075.  
  8076. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  8077.  
  8078.  
  8079.  
  8080. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  8081.  
  8082.  
  8083.  
  8084. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  8085.  
  8086.  
  8087.  
  8088. <p>Taya:</p>
  8089.  
  8090.  
  8091.  
  8092. <p>Hello, this is Taya Graham, and welcome to the Police Accountability Report five-year anniversary live stream. That&#8217;s right, you heard me correctly. It&#8217;s been five years of reporting on police malfeasance across the country, and boy, do we have a lot to talk about. Not just about policing, but the community that has grown around the idea that holding police accountable is a serious task that requires all of us to participate. And honestly, that is one of the most important things I&#8217;ve learned in my five years of hosting the show, that there are people who care, not just about law enforcement, but how the government in general executes policies more than the mainstream media would have us believe. Meaning, the idea that there is a mass movement of indifference and apathy simply ignores the truth that I have witnessed firsthand because, over these past five years, I spoke to people all across the country who care about our rights and our communities. People who are willing to stand up, point a camera, risk an arrest, and come forward and talk to us.</p>
  8093.  
  8094.  
  8095.  
  8096. <p>It&#8217;s an amazing community of people who have something in common, the belief that we not only can control our destiny, but we can actually improve the lives of our fellow citizens by doing so. And to help me unpack these ideas, I&#8217;m joined by an all-star cast of copwatchers and First Amendment activists that have become literal legends in the world of holding police accountable and government accountable, a group whose passion and commitment to reporting on and documenting police malfeasance is unquestioned.</p>
  8097.  
  8098.  
  8099.  
  8100. <p>And so, just to give you an idea of what&#8217;s to come, let me give you a quick rundown of the people who will be joining us tonight. So first, we have the often comedic, but also serious copwatcher, James Freeman, whose onscreen antics have made him one of the most creative and formidable copwatchers on YouTube.</p>
  8101.  
  8102.  
  8103.  
  8104. <p>Next is another legend, a YouTuber known as Lackluster. Lackluster has built a YouTube channel with over 1.5 million subscribers with top-notch investigative reporting on police malfeasance across the country. And then, of course, one of our favorites, Otto The Watchdog, will join the discussion. Otto is another YouTuber who has used comedic and often unorthodox tactics to illuminate just how absurd policing can be in this country.</p>
  8105.  
  8106.  
  8107.  
  8108. <p>We will also be joined by the renowned copwatcher known as The Battousai, who has actually made case law when he was arrested for filming police in Texas. And finally, we&#8217;ll be speaking to two activists whose work can be best described as hardcore and unrelenting. I&#8217;m talking about Tom Zebra and Laura Shark, the incredible duo that has single-handedly hold the LA County Sheriff&#8217;s Office and Police Department accountable. And for the record, there were many other copwatchers we wanted to include, but unless we are going to do a ten-hour livestream, we&#8217;re just going to have to wait for them to join us next time.</p>
  8109.  
  8110.  
  8111.  
  8112. <p>And it&#8217;s quite a lineup, so I&#8217;m anxious to get started, but please remember, this is a live show. There may be some technical difficulties and I will also be looking down in the chat and trying to put your questions and comments on screen. And if possible, have some of our copwatchers respond to them as well. But please give me a little bit of grace because I&#8217;m trying to do quite a few things here at the same time.</p>
  8113.  
  8114.  
  8115.  
  8116. <p>But you know what, I have to find Stephen, I have to get him in here so I can start the show. Now, I know you&#8217;re thinking why isn&#8217;t Stephen here now? Doesn&#8217;t he know about the livestream? Don&#8217;t you guys plan for this? Well, to be fair, I&#8217;m going to ask our studio manager, Dave, to put Stephen&#8217;s Google calendar on the screen so people can see it. Notice how mostly his time is spent outside. The only event on his otherwise meager schedule is this livestream, which is clearly marked by me. So this constant absenteeism is not my fault. But wait, hold on, Dave. I think Dave has located Stephen. Hold on one second.</p>
  8117.  
  8118.  
  8119.  
  8120. <p>Stephen, Stephen, Stephen, Stephen. There&#8217;s a livestream. Stephen, there&#8217;s a livestream. That&#8217;s what&#8217;s going on.</p>
  8121.  
  8122.  
  8123.  
  8124. <p>Yes, Stephen. Stephen, please. Please. Stephen, you&#8217;re not some journalistic Keith Richards. Get in here. Seriously. That was not meant to be a compliment. Please get in here. Please just get in here. Please, please, Stephen, please just get in here. This is a livestream. You need to be here in live, in person to do it. Right now. Oh, jeez, please get inside.</p>
  8125.  
  8126.  
  8127.  
  8128. <p>Hi, pardon us. Much like that cat you saw behind him. He&#8217;s like a stray cat and he has to be encouraged to come indoors. So while I wait for Stephen to find his way in here, I want to delve a little deeper into the theme I discussed at the beginning of the show, namely community. It was something I&#8217;ve been thinking about quite a bit as I was preparing for this show. When I first started the Police Accountability Report with Stephen, I had no idea I would still be hosting it five years later. And in many ways the time has flown by and there are stories that I&#8217;m so proud of, and instances when we help people assert their lives.</p>
  8129.  
  8130.  
  8131.  
  8132. <p>But when I&#8217;ve cherished the most from the past five years are the relationships we&#8217;ve built with this unique community. And I&#8217;m not just talking about our guests, our incredible mods, Noli D and Lacy R. Hi, Noli D. I&#8217;m talking about all of you, the people who comment and offer a fresh perspective on our work and sometimes even pushback. And most importantly, the victims of police malfeasance and brutality, who contact us and have the courage to tell their stories to us.</p>
  8133.  
  8134.  
  8135.  
  8136. <p>And, of course, I include in this community, the people who gather for our live streams and join our premieres to discuss and learn from, and share it with all of us. I thank you for being here because it&#8217;s one of the aspects of independent YouTube journalism that I think our mainstream media counterparts and their pundits don&#8217;t understand. On YouTube, you don&#8217;t have an audience, you have a community. You have people who participate and people who expect you to do more than pose for the camera. They expect you to be active, respond, and be responsive beyond the confines of the story. And that is what&#8217;s so special about what I do. And seriously, it&#8217;s not just about me, it&#8217;s all of us. And I will say more about that later. But finally, one critical part of that community has finally decided to join us, Stephen, so kind of you to go out of your way to be here. We certainly appreciate it.</p>
  8137.  
  8138.  
  8139.  
  8140. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8141.  
  8142.  
  8143.  
  8144. <p>Taya, thank you so much. I was just wondering, did you like my song? Do you think&#8230; I thought it was pretty good, and I think maybe you have a new&#8230; I love the-</p>
  8145.  
  8146.  
  8147.  
  8148. <p>Taya:</p>
  8149.  
  8150.  
  8151.  
  8152. <p>Maybe you could save that for later and we could discuss it.</p>
  8153.  
  8154.  
  8155.  
  8156. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8157.  
  8158.  
  8159.  
  8160. <p>Okay.</p>
  8161.  
  8162.  
  8163.  
  8164. <p>Taya:</p>
  8165.  
  8166.  
  8167.  
  8168. <p>Maybe a little later.</p>
  8169.  
  8170.  
  8171.  
  8172. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8173.  
  8174.  
  8175.  
  8176. <p>You did call me Keith Richards and I was pretty pumped up about that.</p>
  8177.  
  8178.  
  8179.  
  8180. <p>Taya:</p>
  8181.  
  8182.  
  8183.  
  8184. <p>That&#8217;s not what I meant.</p>
  8185.  
  8186.  
  8187.  
  8188. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8189.  
  8190.  
  8191.  
  8192. <p>Okay. It wasn&#8217;t a compliment.</p>
  8193.  
  8194.  
  8195.  
  8196. <p>Taya:</p>
  8197.  
  8198.  
  8199.  
  8200. <p>That&#8217;s not what I meant.</p>
  8201.  
  8202.  
  8203.  
  8204. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8205.  
  8206.  
  8207.  
  8208. <p>Okay, well that&#8217;s fine. All right. I&#8217;m willing to accept that. But thank you for having me here. I&#8217;m glad to be here. I&#8217;m glad to be with this community and all these special people. And what a lineup, that&#8217;s an incredible lineup.</p>
  8209.  
  8210.  
  8211.  
  8212. <p>Taya:</p>
  8213.  
  8214.  
  8215.  
  8216. <p>I know. I&#8217;m so proud of the cast that we have.</p>
  8217.  
  8218.  
  8219.  
  8220. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8221.  
  8222.  
  8223.  
  8224. <p>That is Copwatcher All-Star Hall of Fame, whatever you want to call it.</p>
  8225.  
  8226.  
  8227.  
  8228. <p>Taya:</p>
  8229.  
  8230.  
  8231.  
  8232. <p>I completely agree.</p>
  8233.  
  8234.  
  8235.  
  8236. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8237.  
  8238.  
  8239.  
  8240. <p>I am totally pumped to hear what these people have to say about policing in America.</p>
  8241.  
  8242.  
  8243.  
  8244. <p>Taya:</p>
  8245.  
  8246.  
  8247.  
  8248. <p>Well, Stephen, before you arrived, we were talking about community. And one person who was part of this very interesting community is Colorado copwatcher, Eric Grant. And Eric is what one could fairly characterize as colorful. He has filed and won multiple lawsuits against various police departments, which has led to, among other things, First Amendment training and body cameras for those same departments. And he was also part of a landmark civil rights lawsuit that established the right to record police in the Tenth Federal Circuit. But Eric has also faced legal challenges. He pled guilty to threatening three federal judges and was sentenced to 12 years in prison in 2021. Now, lately, due to his good behavior, Eric was set up to be transferred to a halfway house, literally his last stop on his way to freedom, but then law enforcement stopped back. And for more on the rest of the story, I will turn to Stephen, who&#8217;s been looking into breaking developments regarding Eric. Stephen, can you share some of what you&#8217;ve learned with us?</p>
  8249.  
  8250.  
  8251.  
  8252. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8253.  
  8254.  
  8255.  
  8256. <p>Yeah, just recently over the summer, it&#8217;s interesting, a federal grand jury in Louisiana in the Southern District of Louisiana indicted Eric on account of harassment, interstate harassment. In other words, calling and harassing a law enforcement officer from Colorado to Louisiana. What was really questionable about this entire ordeal is the fact that he was indicted when he was pretty much ready to be released from his current situation in Colorado where he was going to be transferred to a halfway house. He&#8217;d already been put in a minimum security prison. And this indictment occurred over the summer, and then they just issued a writ of habeas corpus for it. They did not lay out what the charges were, like what particular incident.</p>
  8257.  
  8258.  
  8259.  
  8260. <p>There is a video we found where James Freeman was being harassed in a park when he had camped there with his children by a park ranger. And Eric had called and supposedly, allegedly, and we&#8217;ll say allegedly at this point, made some threats. But it really is a questionable and curious timing because of how Eric&#8230; He&#8217;d been serving out a twelve-year sentence for threatening three judges in Denver and had had such good behavior that he was on the precipice of having some freedom at that point.</p>
  8261.  
  8262.  
  8263.  
  8264. <p>And so it seems that some of the people he spoke to, like Abidy, Liberty Freak, feels like this was time to keep Eric in prison because the case, the incident date, goes back to 2019, in the summer of 2019, so this case is almost five years old. So the question is, why is this happening? It happened. They charge him right within the statute of limitations, the charges themselves, there&#8217;s one charge, there&#8217;s one count, can add another five years to Eric&#8217;s sentence. So, it really is a very difficult situation. And I think you&#8217;re going to talk a little bit about what happened when he finally ended up in prison down in Louisiana.</p>
  8265.  
  8266.  
  8267.  
  8268. <p>Taya:</p>
  8269.  
  8270.  
  8271.  
  8272. <p>Yes. Before I go on and share something from Eric, I wanted to say hello to Manuel Mata. He&#8217;s a copwatcher that we&#8217;re very fortunate to have with us. Manuel was going to turn himself in, but fortunately, they gave him time served, and maybe Manuel will be able to share a little bit more about what happened. We were very worried that he was going to be incarcerated for 180 days. So, we want to welcome Manuel Mata.</p>
  8273.  
  8274.  
  8275.  
  8276. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8277.  
  8278.  
  8279.  
  8280. <p>Yeah, welcome.</p>
  8281.  
  8282.  
  8283.  
  8284. <p>Taya:</p>
  8285.  
  8286.  
  8287.  
  8288. <p>Welcome back. And also of course to say hi to HBO Matt out there. Good to see you.</p>
  8289.  
  8290.  
  8291.  
  8292. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8293.  
  8294.  
  8295.  
  8296. <p>Oh, HBO Matt.</p>
  8297.  
  8298.  
  8299.  
  8300. <p>Taya:</p>
  8301.  
  8302.  
  8303.  
  8304. <p>Yeah, he&#8217;s out there.</p>
  8305.  
  8306.  
  8307.  
  8308. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8309.  
  8310.  
  8311.  
  8312. <p>Is he driving somewhere, or is he&#8230;</p>
  8313.  
  8314.  
  8315.  
  8316. <p>Taya:</p>
  8317.  
  8318.  
  8319.  
  8320. <p>Almost every time I&#8217;ve spoken to HBO Matt, he&#8217;s been in a car.</p>
  8321.  
  8322.  
  8323.  
  8324. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8325.  
  8326.  
  8327.  
  8328. <p>Every time you talk to that man, he&#8217;s driving.</p>
  8329.  
  8330.  
  8331.  
  8332. <p>Taya:</p>
  8333.  
  8334.  
  8335.  
  8336. <p>Seriously, he&#8217;s driving.</p>
  8337.  
  8338.  
  8339.  
  8340. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8341.  
  8342.  
  8343.  
  8344. <p>Pretty amazing.</p>
  8345.  
  8346.  
  8347.  
  8348. <p>Taya:</p>
  8349.  
  8350.  
  8351.  
  8352. <p>Yeah. So I&#8217;m going to share something now. I think it&#8217;s pretty obvious that in our prison happy society, we often forget how much of a toll incarceration can take on someone.</p>
  8353.  
  8354.  
  8355.  
  8356. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8357.  
  8358.  
  8359.  
  8360. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  8361.  
  8362.  
  8363.  
  8364. <p>Taya:</p>
  8365.  
  8366.  
  8367.  
  8368. <p>And this is particularly true for Eric, who as I said, through good behavior, had earned a degree of autonomy. And all of this was taken away when he was transferred to a state facility in Louisiana. So first, I want to read a letter from Eric describing the conditions in jail. And I want to thank, you Lacy R, for providing us this letter to share.</p>
  8369.  
  8370.  
  8371.  
  8372. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8373.  
  8374.  
  8375.  
  8376. <p>Yes, thank you Lacy.</p>
  8377.  
  8378.  
  8379.  
  8380. <p>Taya:</p>
  8381.  
  8382.  
  8383.  
  8384. <p>&#8220;In one word, this is horrid. I&#8217;m in my place now, it&#8217;s awful. There are 76 bunks stacked close in a big open room, just like Auschwitz concentration camp. The toilets are open along the wall, no privacy, showers the same. No curtain, no library, no books, no physical mail. It&#8217;s all scanned to the kiosk computer. In fact, the Monroe address is the right one. They scan it there. No law library. I&#8217;m literally the only white guy on my pod. For the first time in my life, I was deloused. It was mandatory. I guess that&#8217;s an issue here. They do not even provide underwear or socks. We have to buy them from the commissary. Can you believe that? Tablets suck, and cost is $1 per hour to use. Oh my God, Lacy, six months to two years, I am officially in hell. I might plead guilty just to get out of here. I&#8217;ll call you in a bit. Love from the Gulag. Vladimir Putin would be proud.&#8221;</p>
  8385.  
  8386.  
  8387.  
  8388. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8389.  
  8390.  
  8391.  
  8392. <p>Wow.</p>
  8393.  
  8394.  
  8395.  
  8396. <p>Taya:</p>
  8397.  
  8398.  
  8399.  
  8400. <p>That&#8217;s pretty powerful. Sounds terrible conditions. That&#8217;s St. Tammany Parish Jail I believe he was calling from. I mean writing from, excuse me.</p>
  8401.  
  8402.  
  8403.  
  8404. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8405.  
  8406.  
  8407.  
  8408. <p>Right. One of the things, we have this presumption of innocence, but when you&#8217;re put in basically a torture chamber, the presumption of innocence just literally evaporates. Because, as Eric said in his own letter, he&#8217;s like, &#8220;I&#8217;m going to plead guilty just to get out of here.&#8221; And I think that pretty much undermines the idea of justice, particularly in his case. And in many cases, he&#8217;s not the only person who suffers this way in prison. And I think prison is probably an important component of undermining the idea of presumption of innocence and the fact that you can fight back against the system of justice because if you are incarcerated like that already in what sounds like unbearable conditions&#8230;</p>
  8409.  
  8410.  
  8411.  
  8412. <p>Taya:</p>
  8413.  
  8414.  
  8415.  
  8416. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  8417.  
  8418.  
  8419.  
  8420. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8421.  
  8422.  
  8423.  
  8424. <p>&#8230; we see here why so many people plead guilty, and don&#8217;t really have the right to a trial. And the idea that you have a right to a trial is ephemeral when you&#8217;re sitting in jail like that. That is a very deserving-</p>
  8425.  
  8426.  
  8427.  
  8428. <p>Taya:</p>
  8429.  
  8430.  
  8431.  
  8432. <p>Something that I think is beyond anecdotal evidence is that prosecutors often stack charges in the hopes that you will plead guilty, prosecutors do want to win cases. And I&#8217;ve heard, and this is somewhat anecdotal evidence, but that people get punished if they try to take it to trial. If they fight for their innocence, then they&#8217;re doubly punished when it comes to sentencing if they dare do that.</p>
  8433.  
  8434.  
  8435.  
  8436. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8437.  
  8438.  
  8439.  
  8440. <p>This is my question, and this is an important question about this. Why five years later do they bring these charges? This is not a complicated case.</p>
  8441.  
  8442.  
  8443.  
  8444. <p>Taya:</p>
  8445.  
  8446.  
  8447.  
  8448. <p>Yes. This was a 2019 incident.</p>
  8449.  
  8450.  
  8451.  
  8452. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8453.  
  8454.  
  8455.  
  8456. <p>So if you&#8217;re investigating a murder or some sort of complex case with all sorts of trails of evidence, that&#8217;s not the case with this. This was a single phone call as far as we know. Now, we don&#8217;t know all the details of the case.</p>
  8457.  
  8458.  
  8459.  
  8460. <p>Taya:</p>
  8461.  
  8462.  
  8463.  
  8464. <p>We don&#8217;t know all of them.</p>
  8465.  
  8466.  
  8467.  
  8468. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8469.  
  8470.  
  8471.  
  8472. <p>But from what we know, it was one or two phone calls and some joking behavior by Eric because there&#8217;s that aspect of him. But why five years? Why did it take five years to investigate a phone call? And that&#8217;s what raises really troubling questions about this because Eric has spent a lot of time in prison. He has certainly done what everyone would want, someone who has to in some way make amends for his behavior if you judge it to be wrong. And he obviously, there&#8217;s a lot of discussion about that. But why, five years later, does Louisiana, does the federal system, suddenly indict this man, drag him out of Colorado down there, and put him in what would be abject conditions?</p>
  8473.  
  8474.  
  8475.  
  8476. <p>Taya:</p>
  8477.  
  8478.  
  8479.  
  8480. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  8481.  
  8482.  
  8483.  
  8484. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8485.  
  8486.  
  8487.  
  8488. <p>It does seem rather strange to me. It doesn&#8217;t seem like a case that would&#8217;ve taken five years to bring to trial.</p>
  8489.  
  8490.  
  8491.  
  8492. <p>Taya:</p>
  8493.  
  8494.  
  8495.  
  8496. <p>And in our conversations with Eric, because we&#8217;ve stayed in touch with him, he was working with some of the other inmates to create care packages and Thanksgiving for people. They were doing work for people outside of the prison. He started a men&#8217;s group. They were doing positive things.</p>
  8497.  
  8498.  
  8499.  
  8500. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8501.  
  8502.  
  8503.  
  8504. <p>I don&#8217;t want to necessarily have an opinion on this, but I think Eric has served his time at this point. If you agree that Eric&#8217;s behavior was wrong, he has served his time. To bring this up now, five years later, is to me, very questionable.</p>
  8505.  
  8506.  
  8507.  
  8508. <p>Taya:</p>
  8509.  
  8510.  
  8511.  
  8512. <p>Yes. And yes, Cajun Randy, he was in St. Tammany, and now he&#8217;s in Plaquemines. Yes.</p>
  8513.  
  8514.  
  8515.  
  8516. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8517.  
  8518.  
  8519.  
  8520. <p>Yeah, Plaquemines.</p>
  8521.  
  8522.  
  8523.  
  8524. <p>Taya:</p>
  8525.  
  8526.  
  8527.  
  8528. <p>We were also speaking to Eric from jail, as we mentioned earlier, and we asked him if there was anything he wanted to say to everyone. So, we&#8217;re going to play that clip now. Remember, we had been on the phone with him for 15 minutes, so we only had a few moments left, but I said, &#8220;Is there anything you want to say to people?&#8221; So maybe we can play that clip now.</p>
  8529.  
  8530.  
  8531.  
  8532. <p>So, Stephen, I think Eric is a perfect example of both the benefits and pitfalls of cop-watching. But he&#8217;s also a unique character too, someone who had his own style, someone one could say was unorthodox, but he was also ingenious in the way he approached the process of YouTube activism. And that&#8217;s another part of YouTube journalism that I have grown to understand and embrace. It is completely creative.</p>
  8533.  
  8534.  
  8535.  
  8536. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8537.  
  8538.  
  8539.  
  8540. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  8541.  
  8542.  
  8543.  
  8544. <p>Taya:</p>
  8545.  
  8546.  
  8547.  
  8548. <p>We make the rules, so to speak. And I understand this from my own experience. And Stephen, I know when we were developing the show, it was both an organic process, but also collaborative. We took so many suggestions and ideas from you folks out there, like you Noli D, and translated them into reality. Stephen, it was almost like inventing a new form of journalism, and not to give ourselves too much credit, but&#8230;</p>
  8549.  
  8550.  
  8551.  
  8552. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8553.  
  8554.  
  8555.  
  8556. <p>Here&#8217;s the thing. This is very important to remember. We talk a lot about David Graeber, the noted anthropologist, and he always said that a bureaucracy of violence causes a dead zone of imagination. So, how do you respond to that in journalism? With journalism, you have to be creative. And that means that you have to turn on the creative juices to make it work. You can&#8217;t hold police accountable through the normal standard practices of journalism. When we were creating the Police Accountability Report, we had to turn everything on its head and say, &#8220;Look, we can&#8217;t approach this. We&#8217;re talking about a huge, massive, indifferent bureaucracy that really in places where it takes root, places like our own city, we see how it affects the psychology of the community.&#8221; And in that case, we had to respond in kind.</p>
  8557.  
  8558.  
  8559.  
  8560. <p>We had to be where we create this so-called Dead Zone, as David Graeber said, we had to create a zone of creativity where we take a show and formulate it and say, &#8220;We&#8217;re not going to do the traditional journalism. I&#8217;m going to stand outside like a real&#8230;&#8221; Well, what am I going to say? I&#8217;m going to stand outside a lot, and I&#8217;m going to develop a persona around that. You are going to have your rants where you provide context, but also emotion because this is emotional for people. A lot of people love Eric. And it&#8217;s not just a simple thing we&#8217;re just reporting. We are engaged to the point where we feel the emotion, people. And I think one of my favorite things about the show is your rant at the end, which you&#8217;ll be doing today, which you have a great one coming up.</p>
  8561.  
  8562.  
  8563.  
  8564. <p>Taya:</p>
  8565.  
  8566.  
  8567.  
  8568. <p>Thank you.</p>
  8569.  
  8570.  
  8571.  
  8572. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8573.  
  8574.  
  8575.  
  8576. <p>Which no other person I ever know in journalists can do the way you do it, but you connect to the emotions of this problem. The people that we talk to, like Eric, their lives are turned upside down. And let&#8217;s remember that Eric started his protests against the mistreatment of homeless people in Denver.</p>
  8577.  
  8578.  
  8579.  
  8580. <p>Taya:</p>
  8581.  
  8582.  
  8583.  
  8584. <p>Yes.</p>
  8585.  
  8586.  
  8587.  
  8588. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8589.  
  8590.  
  8591.  
  8592. <p>So, we&#8217;ve responded in a way that I think we match. We want to be more creative than the people that are doing the bad deeds and the bad governance. Bad governance makes you less creative, but we&#8217;re going to be more creative. And that&#8217;s where this show came from, was like a fountain of creativity between me and you, and our audience, and Noli D and Lacy R, and Tom, and Laura, and people, all these people. Eric, Otto&#8230;</p>
  8593.  
  8594.  
  8595.  
  8596. <p>Taya:</p>
  8597.  
  8598.  
  8599.  
  8600. <p>And all the people that we met along the way, Otto, and Blind Justice, and so many others.</p>
  8601.  
  8602.  
  8603.  
  8604. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8605.  
  8606.  
  8607.  
  8608. <p>It&#8217;s a tradition in all movements of social justice to be more creative and to think of ways and new ways to fight power that is entrenched, and otherwise, it&#8217;s anti-creative. There&#8217;s nothing more anti-creative than policing in America the way it&#8217;s constituted. And in many ways, it seems to respond to complex social problems with simplified forms of bureaucratic violence. Well, we responded to that, and that&#8217;s where the Police Accountability Report came from.</p>
  8609.  
  8610.  
  8611.  
  8612. <p>Taya:</p>
  8613.  
  8614.  
  8615.  
  8616. <p>And I think that&#8217;s actually a perfect segue as I&#8217;m putting up some little comments up here.</p>
  8617.  
  8618.  
  8619.  
  8620. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8621.  
  8622.  
  8623.  
  8624. <p>Cool.</p>
  8625.  
  8626.  
  8627.  
  8628. <p>Taya:</p>
  8629.  
  8630.  
  8631.  
  8632. <p>A perfect segue to start rolling out our guests.</p>
  8633.  
  8634.  
  8635.  
  8636. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8637.  
  8638.  
  8639.  
  8640. <p>Please do.</p>
  8641.  
  8642.  
  8643.  
  8644. <p>Taya:</p>
  8645.  
  8646.  
  8647.  
  8648. <p>And I am so excited about this particular group because, as I said before, they are collection of independent YouTube activists, copwatchers, First Amendment activists, or whatever you want to call those who have simply made a difference, and not just a difference in my life or our show, but the people they have helped by telling their stories. Stephen, we often describe our show as the reverse cops.</p>
  8649.  
  8650.  
  8651.  
  8652. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8653.  
  8654.  
  8655.  
  8656. <p>Yes.</p>
  8657.  
  8658.  
  8659.  
  8660. <p>Taya:</p>
  8661.  
  8662.  
  8663.  
  8664. <p>And I&#8217;m sure you all know that that&#8217;s the infamous Fox show that tells of American law enforcement&#8217;s absolute fixation on the working class from the perspective of cops exclusively. And I would say we try to do the opposite. And I would say all our guests do the opposite. They center the victim, not turn people into victims like a show like COPS does.</p>
  8665.  
  8666.  
  8667.  
  8668. <p>But let&#8217;s get started with our first guest and just one more housekeeping note, our hope for this, our hope for our celebration of our fifth year, we&#8217;re going to thank all of our patrons at the end, patrons past, present, and future, we&#8217;re going to thank them all, and I hope you&#8217;ll bear with me, to hear me thank you personally at the end.</p>
  8669.  
  8670.  
  8671.  
  8672. <p>Now, we are going to stick to five questions per guest to make sure that they&#8217;re not trapped with us till one o&#8217;clock in the morning East Coast time. So we&#8217;re going to start, I hope you&#8217;re ready, and if you have questions, I will try to bring up one for the guest. I won&#8217;t be able to bring up a question for every single person in the chat, but I&#8217;ll at least try to get one for the guest. Okay. So first up is the most eclectic, an idiosyncratic YouTuber out there who has used humor as a tool and absurdity as a trope. His name is Otto The Watchdog and his battles with Royse Texas Police Department are truly epic. Take a look at this confrontation with Royse Texas Police.</p>
  8673.  
  8674.  
  8675.  
  8676. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8677.  
  8678.  
  8679.  
  8680. <p>You okay?</p>
  8681.  
  8682.  
  8683.  
  8684. <p>So, that&#8217;s a totally lapsed time, right? Okay&#8230;</p>
  8685.  
  8686.  
  8687.  
  8688. <p>PART 1 OF 5 ENDS [00:29:04]</p>
  8689.  
  8690.  
  8691.  
  8692. <p>Taya:</p>
  8693.  
  8694.  
  8695.  
  8696. <p>Okay. I&#8217;m not going to lie.</p>
  8697.  
  8698.  
  8699.  
  8700. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8701.  
  8702.  
  8703.  
  8704. <p>That is one of my favorite clips of a cop watcher.</p>
  8705.  
  8706.  
  8707.  
  8708. <p>Taya:</p>
  8709.  
  8710.  
  8711.  
  8712. <p>It&#8217;s a [inaudible 00:29:20] weird because I laugh every single time I watch that clip. I&#8217;m sorry.</p>
  8713.  
  8714.  
  8715.  
  8716. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8717.  
  8718.  
  8719.  
  8720. <p>It&#8217;s so understandable.</p>
  8721.  
  8722.  
  8723.  
  8724. <p>Taya:</p>
  8725.  
  8726.  
  8727.  
  8728. <p>Seriously, when he starts kowtowing to the police, it&#8217;s just that one police officer literally looks like he doesn&#8217;t know what to do, and he kind of like wanders away from Otto.</p>
  8729.  
  8730.  
  8731.  
  8732. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8733.  
  8734.  
  8735.  
  8736. <p>The thing about that clip to me that&#8217;s really interesting is Otto is really laying out the absurdity of police control over our space, how they try to police our geography. And he&#8217;s just showing them how literally absurd they are. And the funny thing is the way they reacted, they don&#8217;t know how to handle it. They don&#8217;t understand what&#8217;s being communicated. But I don&#8217;t want to go into that. I can talk about this for hours. Let&#8217;s get to Otto because-</p>
  8737.  
  8738.  
  8739.  
  8740. <p>Taya:</p>
  8741.  
  8742.  
  8743.  
  8744. <p>Right. So one of the reasons why we&#8217;re having him go first is that he also happens to be a good friend of Eric Brant. So we wanted to welcome Otto. Thank you so much for joining us.</p>
  8745.  
  8746.  
  8747.  
  8748. <p>Otto:</p>
  8749.  
  8750.  
  8751.  
  8752. <p>Hey, I&#8217;m happy to be here. Thank you.</p>
  8753.  
  8754.  
  8755.  
  8756. <p>Taya:</p>
  8757.  
  8758.  
  8759.  
  8760. <p>It&#8217;s great to see you. Now, I&#8217;m sorry to start on a somewhat sad note, but first we&#8217;d like to know your thoughts on Eric&#8217;s recent charges and whether or not the timing concerns you.</p>
  8761.  
  8762.  
  8763.  
  8764. <p>Otto:</p>
  8765.  
  8766.  
  8767.  
  8768. <p>Oh, the timing, yeah, that&#8217;s concerning. I think, like you said, the original phone call was like 2019, and here we are just now getting the charges, so they can file a charge and then just sit on it, so the statute of limitations doesn&#8217;t&#8230; Once they file it, the statute of limitations stops, and they can bring it up pretty much whenever they want to. And yeah, he was about to go in for a parole hearing and this guy is basically the mayor of the jail at this point.</p>
  8769.  
  8770.  
  8771.  
  8772. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8773.  
  8774.  
  8775.  
  8776. <p>Wow.</p>
  8777.  
  8778.  
  8779.  
  8780. <p>Otto:</p>
  8781.  
  8782.  
  8783.  
  8784. <p>So he had a really good chance of getting out. He was already in the process of relinquishing his authority within the inmate administration of the jail that he was in. So that&#8217;s pretty disheartening and it should be terrifying to everybody.</p>
  8785.  
  8786.  
  8787.  
  8788. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8789.  
  8790.  
  8791.  
  8792. <p>Yeah. Otto, I was wondering, I mean, Eric is resilient. I mean, we all know, he&#8217;s like one of the most resilient people I&#8217;ve ever met. But how do you think this is affecting him? Are you worried about him at all? I&#8217;m just wondering.</p>
  8793.  
  8794.  
  8795.  
  8796. <p>Otto:</p>
  8797.  
  8798.  
  8799.  
  8800. <p>Eric is pretty, he&#8217;s a tough guy and he&#8217;s been through a lot of stuff just like everybody else has, but everyone does have a breaking point. And if you don&#8217;t believe that you have one, just most people will get a speeding ticket and they will go and they&#8217;re like, &#8220;Oh, I&#8217;m going to fight it.&#8221; And then they find out that their court case was rescheduled and they end up just paying the ticket, because it&#8217;s too much of an inconvenience at that point. Okay? So if you&#8217;re willing to give up something that you know is wrong over a ticket, a small thing like that, eventually you will get beaten down. And that&#8217;s pretty much the goal. It&#8217;s not a bug of the system, it is in fact the goal of the system. That&#8217;s the whole point.</p>
  8801.  
  8802.  
  8803.  
  8804. <p>Taya:</p>
  8805.  
  8806.  
  8807.  
  8808. <p>Someone in the chat asked about you whether or not some of the cases that you had were resolved and if things had been resolved in relation to some of the difficulties the police had caused for you and your family. So maybe you could just give us an update on the status of your lawsuits against the police, who continued to pursue cases against you. Can you let us know if they&#8217;ve been dropped? Just give us an update.</p>
  8809.  
  8810.  
  8811.  
  8812. <p>Otto:</p>
  8813.  
  8814.  
  8815.  
  8816. <p>Yeah. If you were following my story, I was arrested a lot, a lot. I had a lot of charges. And for somebody who was arrested a lot and had a lot of charges, I have no convictions. Everything was dismissed. Of course, there&#8217;s always threats of imprisonment and plea deals and all of this and that. And like Eric said, he was thinking about pleading guilty just to make it stop. Well, that actually doesn&#8217;t work. You think it does, and then they slam you with something else, and that&#8217;s after, they can do enough things to you that you&#8217;ll want to plead guilty. And the hardest thing for an innocent person to do is to not take an easy way out and make a plea. Because they will make it sweet. But I have no convictions and all the lawsuits that I filed were successful, and we have settled out of court on all of my lawsuits against Rockwall, specifically. Some of my cases, the officers were entitled to qualified immunity, which we absolutely should overturn, because you and I would not be entitled to not knowing. You know what I mean?</p>
  8817.  
  8818.  
  8819.  
  8820. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8821.  
  8822.  
  8823.  
  8824. <p>Yeah. I mean that was in the fifth circuit and that they&#8217;re pretty pro-police. Well, let me ask you a question because what do you think the status of cop watching is now? Because you had to go through a lot of arrests and then you kind of turned to cop watching as a way to put it back on them. But where does that leave cop watching? I mean, we&#8217;ve reported on a lot of places where they are trying different types of arresting for ridiculous things like corners news, arresting for organized crime. Where does cop watching stand now in terms of what police are doing to fight against it?</p>
  8825.  
  8826.  
  8827.  
  8828. <p>Otto:</p>
  8829.  
  8830.  
  8831.  
  8832. <p>So they&#8217;re passing a lot of laws, trying to make active cop watching, following traffic stops as dangerous as possible without making it illegal. So now they&#8217;re putting distance requirements and things of that sort. So some of them are 10 feet as a guide and some of them are 10 feet as rule. And now Florida, I hear it once 25 feet, nobody&#8217;s carrying around a tape measure, so it&#8217;s all kind of subjective, right?</p>
  8833.  
  8834.  
  8835.  
  8836. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8837.  
  8838.  
  8839.  
  8840. <p>Right.</p>
  8841.  
  8842.  
  8843.  
  8844. <p>Otto:</p>
  8845.  
  8846.  
  8847.  
  8848. <p>And then it&#8217;s, &#8220;Hey, fight it in court.&#8221; And as we go back to my previous statement about getting a hundred dollars ticket, then it&#8217;s like, &#8220;Okay, well I&#8217;m just going to plead guilty to it because it&#8217;s easy enough to get out of this endless torment.&#8221; So they&#8217;re trying-</p>
  8849.  
  8850.  
  8851.  
  8852. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8853.  
  8854.  
  8855.  
  8856. <p>That subjective part really scares me.</p>
  8857.  
  8858.  
  8859.  
  8860. <p>Otto:</p>
  8861.  
  8862.  
  8863.  
  8864. <p>Everything&#8217;s subjective, Stephen, everything&#8217;s subjective.</p>
  8865.  
  8866.  
  8867.  
  8868. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8869.  
  8870.  
  8871.  
  8872. <p>True, true.</p>
  8873.  
  8874.  
  8875.  
  8876. <p>Otto:</p>
  8877.  
  8878.  
  8879.  
  8880. <p>If you&#8217;ve watched even five minutes of any one of these people that you&#8217;re going to have on your show today&#8217;s channel, you&#8217;ll know that you can be the most dangerous thing that the police can find in your car is that you&#8217;re innocent. That&#8217;s guaranteeing that you&#8217;re going to get a ticket. You know what I mean? You&#8217;re going to jail, buddy.</p>
  8881.  
  8882.  
  8883.  
  8884. <p>Taya:</p>
  8885.  
  8886.  
  8887.  
  8888. <p>Very well said. Very well said. You know what, I have a question for you, but first I just have to shout out, we&#8217;ve got some great cop watchers down here showing some love and support for the other cop watchers. Guess who&#8217;s down there.</p>
  8889.  
  8890.  
  8891.  
  8892. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8893.  
  8894.  
  8895.  
  8896. <p>Who?</p>
  8897.  
  8898.  
  8899.  
  8900. <p>Taya:</p>
  8901.  
  8902.  
  8903.  
  8904. <p>Munkay 83.</p>
  8905.  
  8906.  
  8907.  
  8908. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8909.  
  8910.  
  8911.  
  8912. <p>Oh.</p>
  8913.  
  8914.  
  8915.  
  8916. <p>Taya:</p>
  8917.  
  8918.  
  8919.  
  8920. <p>Munkay 83. Somebody down there, I think they said, &#8220;[inaudible 00:36:20] is not the same without you.&#8221; I think we might even have Joe Cool down there.</p>
  8921.  
  8922.  
  8923.  
  8924. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8925.  
  8926.  
  8927.  
  8928. <p>Joe Cool is legendary.</p>
  8929.  
  8930.  
  8931.  
  8932. <p>Taya:</p>
  8933.  
  8934.  
  8935.  
  8936. <p>Legend. So just shouting out some of the great people down there. And I think I saw Lady Liberty Press as well.</p>
  8937.  
  8938.  
  8939.  
  8940. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8941.  
  8942.  
  8943.  
  8944. <p>Oh. Awesome.</p>
  8945.  
  8946.  
  8947.  
  8948. <p>Taya:</p>
  8949.  
  8950.  
  8951.  
  8952. <p>Just wanted to make sure to say hello to you kind folks. You see some cop watchers in there, you might want to find out more about what they do in the live chat. You might want to go follow them and click on their channel after we&#8217;re done. But before I go any further about some of the wonderful things in the chat, Otto, I have to ask you a question that may seem kind of serious, but I was kind of wondering, after all you&#8217;ve been through fighting back against police and it&#8217;s really they were nuisance charges, but they made your life miserable, making you drive all the way across country to go to court and just putting all the stress in your life and the cost of money. So I&#8217;m just asking, was it worth it? Was this fight to hold police accountable worth it?</p>
  8953.  
  8954.  
  8955.  
  8956. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8957.  
  8958.  
  8959.  
  8960. <p>That&#8217;s a great question.</p>
  8961.  
  8962.  
  8963.  
  8964. <p>Otto:</p>
  8965.  
  8966.  
  8967.  
  8968. <p>Oh, that&#8217;s a loaded question. Was it worth it? Was it worth it to me personally as an individual? No. Absolutely not. I would not recommend anybody to go through that intentionally on purpose for yourself. But I do think, and as ridiculous as this might sound, I do think it was worth it for you. And for my kids eventually one day, I think it&#8217;ll be worth it to them. We don&#8217;t lose our freedoms in one fell swoop. We lose them in tiny little increments.</p>
  8969.  
  8970.  
  8971.  
  8972. <p>Apparently we&#8217;re losing them about 10 feet at a time. And Florida just made it 15. So eventually it will be 50, and then it will be a hundred, and then it&#8217;ll be audio recordings are not allowed, and they&#8217;re going continue put restrictions on it. And I know that not because I&#8217;m Nostradamus or have a special book or a Magic 8-ball, because that&#8217;s what they do with every single thing else, we&#8217;re going to limit just a little bit. And then before you know it, you can literally, no shit, you can go to federal prison for the rest of your life over some things you bought on Amazon.</p>
  8973.  
  8974.  
  8975.  
  8976. <p>Taya:</p>
  8977.  
  8978.  
  8979.  
  8980. <p>That&#8217;s incredible.</p>
  8981.  
  8982.  
  8983.  
  8984. <p>Stephen:</p>
  8985.  
  8986.  
  8987.  
  8988. <p>[inaudible 00:38:37].</p>
  8989.  
  8990.  
  8991.  
  8992. <p>Otto:</p>
  8993.  
  8994.  
  8995.  
  8996. <p>Some things you buy on Amazon.</p>
  8997.  
  8998.  
  8999.  
  9000. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9001.  
  9002.  
  9003.  
  9004. <p>Otto, was Nostradamus, was he a cop watcher?</p>
  9005.  
  9006.  
  9007.  
  9008. <p>Taya:</p>
  9009.  
  9010.  
  9011.  
  9012. <p>16th century.</p>
  9013.  
  9014.  
  9015.  
  9016. <p>Otto:</p>
  9017.  
  9018.  
  9019.  
  9020. <p>Yes.</p>
  9021.  
  9022.  
  9023.  
  9024. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9025.  
  9026.  
  9027.  
  9028. <p>Oh, he was?</p>
  9029.  
  9030.  
  9031.  
  9032. <p>Otto:</p>
  9033.  
  9034.  
  9035.  
  9036. <p>Yeah. I mean, he-</p>
  9037.  
  9038.  
  9039.  
  9040. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9041.  
  9042.  
  9043.  
  9044. <p>I just wasn&#8217;t sure.</p>
  9045.  
  9046.  
  9047.  
  9048. <p>Otto:</p>
  9049.  
  9050.  
  9051.  
  9052. <p>He rubbed the government wrong. And that&#8217;s a common theme.</p>
  9053.  
  9054.  
  9055.  
  9056. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9057.  
  9058.  
  9059.  
  9060. <p>Nostradamus would&#8217;ve made a hell of a cop watcher. Just saying.</p>
  9061.  
  9062.  
  9063.  
  9064. <p>Taya:</p>
  9065.  
  9066.  
  9067.  
  9068. <p>Well, Otto-</p>
  9069.  
  9070.  
  9071.  
  9072. <p>Otto:</p>
  9073.  
  9074.  
  9075.  
  9076. <p>Well, generally, actually, we are kind lucky to be able to do what we&#8217;re doing-</p>
  9077.  
  9078.  
  9079.  
  9080. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9081.  
  9082.  
  9083.  
  9084. <p>True.</p>
  9085.  
  9086.  
  9087.  
  9088. <p>Otto:</p>
  9089.  
  9090.  
  9091.  
  9092. <p>&#8230; with as much as we&#8217;ve gone through individually and as a group, we are kind of lucky that at least we&#8217;re not actively being shot every day on the street, but a lot of men did get shot in the street so that we could do this. And if we don&#8217;t continue to stand up and push back against the encroachments, then we&#8217;re not going to have the ability at all.</p>
  9093.  
  9094.  
  9095.  
  9096. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9097.  
  9098.  
  9099.  
  9100. <p>I think that&#8217;s great.</p>
  9101.  
  9102.  
  9103.  
  9104. <p>Taya:</p>
  9105.  
  9106.  
  9107.  
  9108. <p>Otto, I think you&#8217;re absolutely right, and like you, I would never suggest to someone that they put their freedom on the line like that, especially if they have family that they&#8217;re concerned about. But I understand how important it is to stand up for your rights. And there&#8217;s a certain point where if we don&#8217;t make the individual decision to stand up, no one else is going to do it for us. So I&#8217;m really, it&#8217;s amazing that you led by example in that way.</p>
  9109.  
  9110.  
  9111.  
  9112. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9113.  
  9114.  
  9115.  
  9116. <p>Let me say this, Otto, we appreciate and we are grateful that we&#8217;ve been able to cover you and allow us to tell your story. So we want to thank you for that.</p>
  9117.  
  9118.  
  9119.  
  9120. <p>Taya:</p>
  9121.  
  9122.  
  9123.  
  9124. <p>Thank you. We do.</p>
  9125.  
  9126.  
  9127.  
  9128. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9129.  
  9130.  
  9131.  
  9132. <p>Because that is a wonderful thing that you&#8217;ve been willing to share all of this, so people can understand what&#8217;s at stake and why it&#8217;s important. And without your story and other people&#8217;s stories, we would not be able to tell that story. So I just want to say thank you as a reporter. I appreciate it.</p>
  9133.  
  9134.  
  9135.  
  9136. <p>Otto:</p>
  9137.  
  9138.  
  9139.  
  9140. <p>Hey, I want to say thank you guys for everything you do, for telling the stories, because if nobody tells the stories, then there was no story to have.</p>
  9141.  
  9142.  
  9143.  
  9144. <p>Taya:</p>
  9145.  
  9146.  
  9147.  
  9148. <p>They&#8217;re very true. And I think finally some of the folks in the mainstream media have realized that cop watchers exist. So that&#8217;s a nice change of pace. We were a little ahead of the curve, maybe by five years.</p>
  9149.  
  9150.  
  9151.  
  9152. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9153.  
  9154.  
  9155.  
  9156. <p>Five years.</p>
  9157.  
  9158.  
  9159.  
  9160. <p>Taya:</p>
  9161.  
  9162.  
  9163.  
  9164. <p>About five years, we were a little ahead of the curve.</p>
  9165.  
  9166.  
  9167.  
  9168. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9169.  
  9170.  
  9171.  
  9172. <p>That&#8217;s why we&#8217;re here. That&#8217;s what we&#8217;re here for.</p>
  9173.  
  9174.  
  9175.  
  9176. <p>Otto:</p>
  9177.  
  9178.  
  9179.  
  9180. <p>For sure.</p>
  9181.  
  9182.  
  9183.  
  9184. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9185.  
  9186.  
  9187.  
  9188. <p>[inaudible 00:40:53].</p>
  9189.  
  9190.  
  9191.  
  9192. <p>Otto:</p>
  9193.  
  9194.  
  9195.  
  9196. <p>In the [inaudible 00:40:55] of things, cop watchers won because now everybody, the first thing that happens is everybody pulls out their phone.</p>
  9197.  
  9198.  
  9199.  
  9200. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9201.  
  9202.  
  9203.  
  9204. <p>Very true.</p>
  9205.  
  9206.  
  9207.  
  9208. <p>Taya:</p>
  9209.  
  9210.  
  9211.  
  9212. <p>Absolutely. Absolutely.</p>
  9213.  
  9214.  
  9215.  
  9216. <p>Otto:</p>
  9217.  
  9218.  
  9219.  
  9220. <p>We won.</p>
  9221.  
  9222.  
  9223.  
  9224. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9225.  
  9226.  
  9227.  
  9228. <p>Without fear.</p>
  9229.  
  9230.  
  9231.  
  9232. <p>Taya:</p>
  9233.  
  9234.  
  9235.  
  9236. <p>Beautiful.</p>
  9237.  
  9238.  
  9239.  
  9240. <p>Otto:</p>
  9241.  
  9242.  
  9243.  
  9244. <p>Without fear, right. Everybody knows their IDs now. Y&#8217;all have to show you my ID. Everybody knows to record their traffic stops.</p>
  9245.  
  9246.  
  9247.  
  9248. <p>Taya:</p>
  9249.  
  9250.  
  9251.  
  9252. <p>Yes.</p>
  9253.  
  9254.  
  9255.  
  9256. <p>Otto:</p>
  9257.  
  9258.  
  9259.  
  9260. <p>Everybody knows what to do with it, and the cops do too, right? We&#8217;re going to record that shit and put it on TikTok or YouTube.</p>
  9261.  
  9262.  
  9263.  
  9264. <p>Taya:</p>
  9265.  
  9266.  
  9267.  
  9268. <p>Beautiful. And what a perfect and inspiring way to end your segment, Otto, I wish we could keep you on this whole time, but we have some other awesome people waiting in the wings, so I just want to thank you for joining us-</p>
  9269.  
  9270.  
  9271.  
  9272. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9273.  
  9274.  
  9275.  
  9276. <p>Thank you, Otto.</p>
  9277.  
  9278.  
  9279.  
  9280. <p>Taya:</p>
  9281.  
  9282.  
  9283.  
  9284. <p>&#8230; for our fifth year anniversary, and just we appreciate you so much, Otto.</p>
  9285.  
  9286.  
  9287.  
  9288. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9289.  
  9290.  
  9291.  
  9292. <p>Thank you. Thank you.</p>
  9293.  
  9294.  
  9295.  
  9296. <p>Otto:</p>
  9297.  
  9298.  
  9299.  
  9300. <p>You have a good one.</p>
  9301.  
  9302.  
  9303.  
  9304. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9305.  
  9306.  
  9307.  
  9308. <p>You too.</p>
  9309.  
  9310.  
  9311.  
  9312. <p>Taya:</p>
  9313.  
  9314.  
  9315.  
  9316. <p>Take care.</p>
  9317.  
  9318.  
  9319.  
  9320. <p>You know what, that was Otto. Fascinating and really insightful as always.</p>
  9321.  
  9322.  
  9323.  
  9324. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9325.  
  9326.  
  9327.  
  9328. <p>Yeah. As always. He&#8217;s great guest.</p>
  9329.  
  9330.  
  9331.  
  9332. <p>Taya:</p>
  9333.  
  9334.  
  9335.  
  9336. <p>Now our next guest truly needs no introduction. As I said before, he has built one of the largest cop watcher channels, reporting on police abuse across the country, and he has done it with his own distinct style and voice. And his videos get millions of views. You might recognize him. Take a look.</p>
  9337.  
  9338.  
  9339.  
  9340. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9341.  
  9342.  
  9343.  
  9344. <p>Oh. Sorry, sorry. Thank you.</p>
  9345.  
  9346.  
  9347.  
  9348. <p>Taya:</p>
  9349.  
  9350.  
  9351.  
  9352. <p>Don&#8217;t forget to check that screen to make sure you&#8217;re not on it before you.</p>
  9353.  
  9354.  
  9355.  
  9356. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9357.  
  9358.  
  9359.  
  9360. <p>Yes. Okay.</p>
  9361.  
  9362.  
  9363.  
  9364. <p>How&#8217;s the chat?</p>
  9365.  
  9366.  
  9367.  
  9368. <p>Taya:</p>
  9369.  
  9370.  
  9371.  
  9372. <p>Looking good.</p>
  9373.  
  9374.  
  9375.  
  9376. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9377.  
  9378.  
  9379.  
  9380. <p>Do we call him Dale? Do we call him Dale?</p>
  9381.  
  9382.  
  9383.  
  9384. <p>Taya:</p>
  9385.  
  9386.  
  9387.  
  9388. <p>I&#8217;ll ask. So without further ado, we would like to welcome LackLuster to the channel. LackLuster, thank you for joining us. Should we call you Dale or should we call you LackLuster? How should we-</p>
  9389.  
  9390.  
  9391.  
  9392. <p>Dale:</p>
  9393.  
  9394.  
  9395.  
  9396. <p>Either way is fine.</p>
  9397.  
  9398.  
  9399.  
  9400. <p>Taya:</p>
  9401.  
  9402.  
  9403.  
  9404. <p>Either way is fine.</p>
  9405.  
  9406.  
  9407.  
  9408. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9409.  
  9410.  
  9411.  
  9412. <p>Wait, I just have to ask you, did you sample that body camera sound, the [inaudible 00:43:53]?</p>
  9413.  
  9414.  
  9415.  
  9416. <p>Dale:</p>
  9417.  
  9418.  
  9419.  
  9420. <p>Yeah. Actually it&#8217;s probably one of the worst samples I could have picked up.</p>
  9421.  
  9422.  
  9423.  
  9424. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9425.  
  9426.  
  9427.  
  9428. <p>That is brilliant.</p>
  9429.  
  9430.  
  9431.  
  9432. <p>Dale:</p>
  9433.  
  9434.  
  9435.  
  9436. <p>I know Stephen loves that.</p>
  9437.  
  9438.  
  9439.  
  9440. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9441.  
  9442.  
  9443.  
  9444. <p>As someone who&#8217;s watched a lot of body camera footage, when I heard it, I was like, I know that sound, that sound. I wonder-</p>
  9445.  
  9446.  
  9447.  
  9448. <p>Dale:</p>
  9449.  
  9450.  
  9451.  
  9452. <p>Every commercial has a little jingle or something like [inaudible 00:44:10] at the end, [inaudible 00:44:11] the body cam was pretty distinct.</p>
  9453.  
  9454.  
  9455.  
  9456. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9457.  
  9458.  
  9459.  
  9460. <p>Is that meant to tell cops that they&#8217;re on camera? Is it to remind them or why did the body camera have that? I don&#8217;t even know.</p>
  9461.  
  9462.  
  9463.  
  9464. <p>Dale:</p>
  9465.  
  9466.  
  9467.  
  9468. <p>As far as I know, I am not a hundred percent sure, but as far as I know, yes, it&#8217;s just a reminder in case they forget to leave it on, [inaudible 00:44:31] turn it off.</p>
  9469.  
  9470.  
  9471.  
  9472. <p>Taya:</p>
  9473.  
  9474.  
  9475.  
  9476. <p>I was going to say something a little saucy, but I&#8217;ll keep that to myself. So first I&#8217;m just curious from your perspective, are police changing their behavior or are you getting just as many calls for help as before? What are you seeing?</p>
  9477.  
  9478.  
  9479.  
  9480. <p>Dale:</p>
  9481.  
  9482.  
  9483.  
  9484. <p>Yeah, it is kind of difficult. I&#8217;ve personally seen a large shift in the behavior of various law enforcement agencies across the country. I&#8217;ve had insurance companies that represent those companies reach out to me for tips on how to keep their guys out of the litigation. Things like that are happening, but it&#8217;s one of those occupations where there&#8217;s a high rate of attrition, so people are always coming in, getting kicked out or just bouncing around to different departments. So I think we&#8217;re always going to see new people that don&#8217;t understand what&#8217;s really happening out there. And unfortunately, most of these new guys are 20-year-olds and nothing, no offense to any of the audience out there that&#8217;s still very young, but when you&#8217;re 20, you don&#8217;t know shit. Excuse me-</p>
  9485.  
  9486.  
  9487.  
  9488. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9489.  
  9490.  
  9491.  
  9492. <p>Good point.</p>
  9493.  
  9494.  
  9495.  
  9496. <p>Dale:</p>
  9497.  
  9498.  
  9499.  
  9500. <p>&#8230; and then you have all this responsibility and power, and that corrupts the best of [inaudible 00:46:01] and I know I certainly wasn&#8217;t at my best in my 20s, so.</p>
  9501.  
  9502.  
  9503.  
  9504. <p>Taya:</p>
  9505.  
  9506.  
  9507.  
  9508. <p>Neither side of [inaudible 00:46:08]-</p>
  9509.  
  9510.  
  9511.  
  9512. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9513.  
  9514.  
  9515.  
  9516. <p>I kind of wonder if you&#8217;re driving you pulled over and you say, &#8220;Well, if you do something wrong, you&#8217;re going to be on LackLuster channel.&#8221; Do you think cops are aware of it now, where they&#8217;re like, &#8220;Oh God, I don&#8217;t want to end up on LackLuster channel&#8221;? I mean, because you&#8217;ve gotten so big.</p>
  9517.  
  9518.  
  9519.  
  9520. <p>Taya:</p>
  9521.  
  9522.  
  9523.  
  9524. <p>Seriously.</p>
  9525.  
  9526.  
  9527.  
  9528. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9529.  
  9530.  
  9531.  
  9532. <p>Do you think there&#8217;s behavioral adjustments going on out in the field because of what you&#8217;re doing?</p>
  9533.  
  9534.  
  9535.  
  9536. <p>Taya:</p>
  9537.  
  9538.  
  9539.  
  9540. <p>I know, I hope there are.</p>
  9541.  
  9542.  
  9543.  
  9544. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9545.  
  9546.  
  9547.  
  9548. <p>I think so.</p>
  9549.  
  9550.  
  9551.  
  9552. <p>Dale:</p>
  9553.  
  9554.  
  9555.  
  9556. <p>Yeah. There&#8217;s a couple of videos on the channel where people have made mention of the channel like, &#8220;Hey, this is going to end up on LackLuster,&#8221; so that&#8217;s [inaudible 00:46:38]-</p>
  9557.  
  9558.  
  9559.  
  9560. <p>Taya:</p>
  9561.  
  9562.  
  9563.  
  9564. <p>That&#8217;s awesome.</p>
  9565.  
  9566.  
  9567.  
  9568. <p>Dale:</p>
  9569.  
  9570.  
  9571.  
  9572. <p>&#8230; fun for me, of course. But I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s going to affect any. It might even make them worse, might make them perform for the camera, if you will.</p>
  9573.  
  9574.  
  9575.  
  9576. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9577.  
  9578.  
  9579.  
  9580. <p>Well, you say people would shout &#8220;World Star&#8221; before they do a video, now-</p>
  9581.  
  9582.  
  9583.  
  9584. <p>Taya:</p>
  9585.  
  9586.  
  9587.  
  9588. <p>Oh, that&#8217;s right.</p>
  9589.  
  9590.  
  9591.  
  9592. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9593.  
  9594.  
  9595.  
  9596. <p>&#8230; like if a cop comes, I&#8217;m just going to shout, LackLuster.</p>
  9597.  
  9598.  
  9599.  
  9600. <p>Taya:</p>
  9601.  
  9602.  
  9603.  
  9604. <p>LackLuster.</p>
  9605.  
  9606.  
  9607.  
  9608. <p>Dale:</p>
  9609.  
  9610.  
  9611.  
  9612. <p>[inaudible 00:46:58].</p>
  9613.  
  9614.  
  9615.  
  9616. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9617.  
  9618.  
  9619.  
  9620. <p>Just a thought.</p>
  9621.  
  9622.  
  9623.  
  9624. <p>Taya:</p>
  9625.  
  9626.  
  9627.  
  9628. <p>Oh my Gosh.</p>
  9629.  
  9630.  
  9631.  
  9632. <p>Dale:</p>
  9633.  
  9634.  
  9635.  
  9636. <p>We also see too. I&#8217;ve never asked my audience to do anything with their time. Well, maybe to speak their mind or something like that, but never anything specific, never any direction on where to go with, where to speak their mind. But I do post Facebook links in the description of my videos and Twitter sometimes if they have it. And I&#8217;ll see often in those comment sections, they&#8217;ll say, &#8220;You got LackLuster,&#8221; because they&#8217;re just [inaudible 00:47:35].</p>
  9637.  
  9638.  
  9639.  
  9640. <p>Taya:</p>
  9641.  
  9642.  
  9643.  
  9644. <p>That&#8217;s excellent.</p>
  9645.  
  9646.  
  9647.  
  9648. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9649.  
  9650.  
  9651.  
  9652. <p>That&#8217;s cool.</p>
  9653.  
  9654.  
  9655.  
  9656. <p>Taya:</p>
  9657.  
  9658.  
  9659.  
  9660. <p>That&#8217;s so excellent. Something I wanted to ask you about that I saw is this project that you seem to be working on, I think it&#8217;s with Long Island Audit. It seems like you&#8217;re trying to give people a way to literally have a lawyer in their pocket. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?</p>
  9661.  
  9662.  
  9663.  
  9664. <p>Dale:</p>
  9665.  
  9666.  
  9667.  
  9668. <p>Yeah, sure. Attorney Shield, it&#8217;s up, it&#8217;s running. It&#8217;s on iOS and Android.</p>
  9669.  
  9670.  
  9671.  
  9672. <p>Taya:</p>
  9673.  
  9674.  
  9675.  
  9676. <p>That&#8217;s great.</p>
  9677.  
  9678.  
  9679.  
  9680. <p>Dale:</p>
  9681.  
  9682.  
  9683.  
  9684. <p>We kind of did a little soft rollout because apps are extremely difficult to build and we&#8217;re not using any APIs at all. We built all the software, I mean, I had nothing to do with building a software. I don&#8217;t know how to do any of that. But we&#8217;re making everything our own, so that when we need to do something, nobody can shut us down first off, that&#8217;s number one. Amazon can&#8217;t shut us down or whoever else. Nobody can shut us down. And anytime we want to build, we know the code inside and out. So that&#8217;s great. But with that, that makes it a lot harder to build.</p>
  9685.  
  9686.  
  9687.  
  9688. <p>So we did kind of like a quiet, soft launch. So the people watching right now obviously will know that it&#8217;s actually up and running. But we&#8217;re waiting. And we&#8217;ve had a few interactions. Some have gone very well, some have not. And not like they&#8217;ve gone bad for the person because they&#8217;re using the app or anything, but we&#8217;re working with some of them. Most of them want to remain anonymous because that&#8217;s most people don&#8217;t want to be on the internet. But hopefully we&#8217;ll be able to share some of those interactions pretty soon and show you guys how the app works, because it&#8217;s pretty awesome if you ask me.</p>
  9689.  
  9690.  
  9691.  
  9692. <p>Taya:</p>
  9693.  
  9694.  
  9695.  
  9696. <p>Oh, you know what, I just have one more question before, I know you want to jump in, but I have one more question for you, Dale. So this is something that we discussed prior to the show, but you were telling me that people are already using AI to duplicate your work. Can you just talk a little bit about that and what you&#8217;re doing to fight back? Because there&#8217;s so many different ways that AI is going to be affecting the future of people who are trying to put out content, whether you&#8217;re a cop watcher or any other type of content creator. But I think it&#8217;s especially dangerous for cop watcher.</p>
  9697.  
  9698.  
  9699.  
  9700. <p>And one of the things I&#8217;ve noticed is that there&#8217;ve been some body camera channels that have popped up, and I&#8217;ll say allegedly, or one could say that they look like they are fed directly by police departments as a form of propaganda to kind of counter the narrative that we&#8217;re seeing when people actually hold their cell phones up and have real life encounters with police. So it does seem like they might be somewhat cherry-picking these encounters. So I just want to know how you&#8217;re handling AI, how it makes you feel, what you&#8217;re trying to do to fight back, anything along those lines.</p>
  9701.  
  9702.  
  9703.  
  9704. <p>Dale:</p>
  9705.  
  9706.  
  9707.  
  9708. <p>Sure. Well, the biggest push I&#8217;ve seen so far, it isn&#8217;t necessarily AI all the way. I&#8217;m seeing a big push from foreign countries blasting out YouTube channels with police interactions. And a lot of times they&#8217;re just taking my video, my script. They&#8217;re transcribing my script and running it through an AI voice, and then running basically somebody else&#8217;s voice over my editing and blurring out my logos. So that&#8217;s all over the internet, and there&#8217;s very little I can do about it. I can copyright strike it, but I&#8217;m still a one-man team, I have no employees. I need an editor, but it would be a full-time job to try to track down all the people doing this. But my biggest concern with it isn&#8217;t really for me or the channel because the channel&#8217;s going to be fine.</p>
  9709.  
  9710.  
  9711.  
  9712. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9713.  
  9714.  
  9715.  
  9716. <p>Okay. Sorry.</p>
  9717.  
  9718.  
  9719.  
  9720. <p>Dale:</p>
  9721.  
  9722.  
  9723.  
  9724. <p>My biggest concern is that the channels that are doing this aren&#8217;t even from the United States. So they really have no stake in the game. They don&#8217;t care what happens to the victims. They don&#8217;t care what happens with the police forces. I mean, maybe they might in some relative way or something, but because they&#8217;re not living in America, they don&#8217;t care. It doesn&#8217;t affect them. They&#8217;re for money. It&#8217;s a pure grift, a hundred percent. And that&#8217;s kind of bothersome because I think my work has, I don&#8217;t know, terminated, suspended dozens and dozens of cops, raised hundreds of thousands of dollars through GoFundMe for victims, things like that. That&#8217;s something you&#8217;ll never see from the foreign agencies making these videos. So I don&#8217;t know. It&#8217;s interesting.</p>
  9725.  
  9726.  
  9727.  
  9728. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9729.  
  9730.  
  9731.  
  9732. <p>Speaking of that, and that is absolutely terrifying and distressing that foreign countries are using this to some sort of entertainment fodder to get YouTube revenue basically, I&#8217;m assuming. But where do you see cop watching now as a practice and art form, whatever, where do you see it headed at this point and what&#8217;s happening to it? Where do you see it now?</p>
  9733.  
  9734.  
  9735.  
  9736. <p>Dale:</p>
  9737.  
  9738.  
  9739.  
  9740. <p>I don&#8217;t know. It could be very interesting. We got Trump talking about pushing more qualified immunity and getting rid of&#8230; I think he said something about people filming the cops recently, and I can&#8217;t recall it.</p>
  9741.  
  9742.  
  9743.  
  9744. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9745.  
  9746.  
  9747.  
  9748. <p>Really, he specifically. Wow.</p>
  9749.  
  9750.  
  9751.  
  9752. <p>Dale:</p>
  9753.  
  9754.  
  9755.  
  9756. <p>I know he said something about qualified immunity and making it, increasing it.</p>
  9757.  
  9758.  
  9759.  
  9760. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9761.  
  9762.  
  9763.  
  9764. <p>That&#8217;s true. That&#8217;s true.</p>
  9765.  
  9766.  
  9767.  
  9768. <p>Dale:</p>
  9769.  
  9770.  
  9771.  
  9772. <p>Yeah. I think it&#8217;ll be very interesting. We live in unprecedented times. This is truly an amazing period that we get to live through. And I don&#8217;t know, I mean, AI could ruin everything we&#8217;ve worked for or it could-</p>
  9773.  
  9774.  
  9775.  
  9776. <p>Taya:</p>
  9777.  
  9778.  
  9779.  
  9780. <p>So true.</p>
  9781.  
  9782.  
  9783.  
  9784. <p>Dale:</p>
  9785.  
  9786.  
  9787.  
  9788. <p>&#8230; make it 10 times better depending on who&#8217;s working on it and [inaudible 00:53:41] working on it. So it&#8217;ll be very interesting to see.</p>
  9789.  
  9790.  
  9791.  
  9792. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9793.  
  9794.  
  9795.  
  9796. <p>It&#8217;s a weird thing to think about because 10 years ago, you probably couldn&#8217;t have done what you&#8217;ve done and had the impact and the influence that you had. That&#8217;s been a benefit of algorithm [inaudible 00:53:53] technology. But then on the other hand, AI is a really sort of treacherous path there, and it might not be the same thing. It&#8217;s weird to think about in that sense.</p>
  9797.  
  9798.  
  9799.  
  9800. <p>Taya:</p>
  9801.  
  9802.  
  9803.  
  9804. <p>Actually, I&#8217;ve been spending every other night working on this piece that I&#8217;ve been writing and writing and writing about my experience at this journalism conference when I said, &#8220;Oh, why don&#8217;t you try all these wonderful AI tools?&#8221; And so I&#8217;m looking at these AI tools and I&#8217;m like, well, some of them are interesting, but some of the ones that I was being given for free, I was like, wait a second. They just want to learn how my brain works. They just want to learn what I know so that they can replace me so that a newsroom that would normally have a hundred people in it now are only going to have 15 miserable souls running around in circles, prompting the AI and trying to find out whether or not the latest social media video is a deep fake or not. And it&#8217;s just going to be like a hamster wheel nightmare.</p>
  9805.  
  9806.  
  9807.  
  9808. <p>So my concern isn&#8217;t that AI couldn&#8217;t be used for good and couldn&#8217;t be used to benefit creators. But if I know anything about the current system that we&#8217;re in, those with immense wealth, these technocrats are going to grab ahold of it and they&#8217;re going to use it to extract even more wealth from us, even more wealth from our society. These technocrats already ignore legal norms. They already exploit the working class, and it&#8217;s actually going to diminish the power that we have as laborers to come together. I&#8217;m actually a union steward, so if you eliminate all the laborers, then we don&#8217;t have any power against these folks, against these corporations. And so what I&#8217;ve noticed is what they&#8217;re most likely going to do is use it to replace human beings and to make labor as cheap as possible. And there&#8217;s just going to be a wide swath of people that are losing their jobs all over the place. Because what I&#8217;ve noticed with AI is that it&#8217;s replacing the things we love to do. Stephen loves making music. No comment on his music. He loves making-</p>
  9809.  
  9810.  
  9811.  
  9812. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9813.  
  9814.  
  9815.  
  9816. <p>That was [inaudible 00:55:48].</p>
  9817.  
  9818.  
  9819.  
  9820. <p>Taya:</p>
  9821.  
  9822.  
  9823.  
  9824. <p>It was a great song.</p>
  9825.  
  9826.  
  9827.  
  9828. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9829.  
  9830.  
  9831.  
  9832. <p>Thank you.</p>
  9833.  
  9834.  
  9835.  
  9836. <p>Taya:</p>
  9837.  
  9838.  
  9839.  
  9840. <p>He loves making music.</p>
  9841.  
  9842.  
  9843.  
  9844. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9845.  
  9846.  
  9847.  
  9848. <p>[inaudible 00:55:51].</p>
  9849.  
  9850.  
  9851.  
  9852. <p>Taya:</p>
  9853.  
  9854.  
  9855.  
  9856. <p>He loves writing. I like writing. We like making videos. I love doing voiceover work. I love doing narration. That&#8217;s all stuff that&#8217;s being replaced by AI. People who do art, hand drawing things, come up with cool styles, that stuff, the computers are doing all the stuff we actually like doing. Even actors, the people who are doing the behind the&#8230; They&#8217;re the ones in the background. People who spend like 20 years like playing zombies in the background of the movie because they love doing it-</p>
  9857.  
  9858.  
  9859.  
  9860. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9861.  
  9862.  
  9863.  
  9864. <p>You&#8217;re worried about zombies now, you bring zombies in this.</p>
  9865.  
  9866.  
  9867.  
  9868. <p>Taya:</p>
  9869.  
  9870.  
  9871.  
  9872. <p>I&#8217;m worried about the zombie actors, Steven.</p>
  9873.  
  9874.  
  9875.  
  9876. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9877.  
  9878.  
  9879.  
  9880. <p>Okay. Ask him the question.</p>
  9881.  
  9882.  
  9883.  
  9884. <p>Taya:</p>
  9885.  
  9886.  
  9887.  
  9888. <p>I think I started ranting.</p>
  9889.  
  9890.  
  9891.  
  9892. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9893.  
  9894.  
  9895.  
  9896. <p>Yeah. This is not the rant part. This is the part where you ask our guest questions so they can-</p>
  9897.  
  9898.  
  9899.  
  9900. <p>Dale:</p>
  9901.  
  9902.  
  9903.  
  9904. <p>No, it&#8217;s [inaudible 00:56:32].</p>
  9905.  
  9906.  
  9907.  
  9908. <p>Taya:</p>
  9909.  
  9910.  
  9911.  
  9912. <p>I&#8217;m sorry. The question is, Dale, do you see a horrifying dystopian future where we&#8217;re all going to have to ask the-</p>
  9913.  
  9914.  
  9915.  
  9916. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9917.  
  9918.  
  9919.  
  9920. <p>It&#8217;s very loaded question. That is not an objective question.</p>
  9921.  
  9922.  
  9923.  
  9924. <p>Dale:</p>
  9925.  
  9926.  
  9927.  
  9928. <p>No, absolutely. I don&#8217;t know if you guys watch what Nvidia puts out. They make all the microchips and GPUs and all that fun stuff, but technology advances. They used to say anyway a thousand times per year, and now he&#8217;s saying the CEO of Nvidia saying with whatever they just created, that it&#8217;s going to be more like a million times per year.</p>
  9929.  
  9930.  
  9931.  
  9932. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9933.  
  9934.  
  9935.  
  9936. <p>Moore&#8217;s law. Moore&#8217;s Law used to be the capacity-</p>
  9937.  
  9938.  
  9939.  
  9940. <p>Taya:</p>
  9941.  
  9942.  
  9943.  
  9944. <p>Oh, yeah. That&#8217;s right.</p>
  9945.  
  9946.  
  9947.  
  9948. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9949.  
  9950.  
  9951.  
  9952. <p>&#8230; of a chip with double every two years. And now, yeah, can you be more exponential? I think it is more exponential, yeah.</p>
  9953.  
  9954.  
  9955.  
  9956. <p>Taya:</p>
  9957.  
  9958.  
  9959.  
  9960. <p>Yeah. It&#8217;s absolutely horrifying. Can you say one last thing about AI?</p>
  9961.  
  9962.  
  9963.  
  9964. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9965.  
  9966.  
  9967.  
  9968. <p>No.</p>
  9969.  
  9970.  
  9971.  
  9972. <p>Taya:</p>
  9973.  
  9974.  
  9975.  
  9976. <p>Please.</p>
  9977.  
  9978.  
  9979.  
  9980. <p>Dale:</p>
  9981.  
  9982.  
  9983.  
  9984. <p>Yeah.</p>
  9985.  
  9986.  
  9987.  
  9988. <p>Stephen:</p>
  9989.  
  9990.  
  9991.  
  9992. <p>Yeah. That&#8217;s Dale. He&#8217;s the guest. He&#8217;s gonna-</p>
  9993.  
  9994.  
  9995.  
  9996. <p>Taya:</p>
  9997.  
  9998.  
  9999.  
  10000. <p>Dale, may I say one last thing about AI please?</p>
  10001.  
  10002.  
  10003.  
  10004. <p>Dale:</p>
  10005.  
  10006.  
  10007.  
  10008. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  10009.  
  10010.  
  10011.  
  10012. <p>Taya:</p>
  10013.  
  10014.  
  10015.  
  10016. <p>Okay. So what I&#8217;m concerned about is my one hope was that this AI was going to be self-limiting because at a certain point, there&#8217;s just not going to be enough energy and not enough storage for all this AI to work. And that&#8217;s why it worries me that former CEO or current CEO Sam Altman is walking around hat in hand to all these petrol companies to make sure that there&#8217;s going to be an endless supply of energy for AI. So the one hope that it might be self-limiting, he&#8217;s absolutely trying to destroy, despite the fact that he had gone on record saying, &#8220;Gee, I&#8217;m kind of worried what we might&#8217;ve unleashed out of Pandora&#8217;s box.&#8221; And then he goes around and he&#8217;s like, &#8220;Let&#8217;s make sure it can never be turned off.&#8221;</p>
  10017.  
  10018.  
  10019.  
  10020. <p>PART 2 OF 5 ENDS [00:58:04]</p>
  10021.  
  10022.  
  10023.  
  10024. <p>Taya:</p>
  10025.  
  10026.  
  10027.  
  10028. <p>&#8230; Pandora&#8217;s box, and then he goes around and he&#8217;s like, &#8220;Let&#8217;s make sure it can never be turned off.&#8221; He&#8217;s trying to build Skynet, as far as I&#8217;m concerned. Okay. Last thing I&#8217;ll say about it&gt;</p>
  10029.  
  10030.  
  10031.  
  10032. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10033.  
  10034.  
  10035.  
  10036. <p>Well, and we talked about this with my editor. Dale, do you think RoboCop is the next step on policing? Are one day we going to get pulled over by a robot, and you&#8217;re going to have to turn your channel into a RoboCop channel, I guess?</p>
  10037.  
  10038.  
  10039.  
  10040. <p>Dale:</p>
  10041.  
  10042.  
  10043.  
  10044. <p>Yeah, absolutely. LAPD is already working on some robot that deploys from a police cruiser, and comes to your window, and then connects through Bluetooth or Wi-Fi, or whatever. You don&#8217;t even go face to face with a human anymore. You&#8217;ll be a little R2D2 thing, and a screen.</p>
  10045.  
  10046.  
  10047.  
  10048. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10049.  
  10050.  
  10051.  
  10052. <p>That&#8217;s just-</p>
  10053.  
  10054.  
  10055.  
  10056. <p>Dale:</p>
  10057.  
  10058.  
  10059.  
  10060. <p>Probably, it&#8217;s supposed to be a human on the other side, but-</p>
  10061.  
  10062.  
  10063.  
  10064. <p>Taya:</p>
  10065.  
  10066.  
  10067.  
  10068. <p>Oh, my God.</p>
  10069.  
  10070.  
  10071.  
  10072. <p>Dale:</p>
  10073.  
  10074.  
  10075.  
  10076. <p>&#8230; how long that lasts.</p>
  10077.  
  10078.  
  10079.  
  10080. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10081.  
  10082.  
  10083.  
  10084. <p>Wow.</p>
  10085.  
  10086.  
  10087.  
  10088. <p>Taya:</p>
  10089.  
  10090.  
  10091.  
  10092. <p>I think in New York they were getting the robot AI dogs, and then they had something that looked like a little trash can.</p>
  10093.  
  10094.  
  10095.  
  10096. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10097.  
  10098.  
  10099.  
  10100. <p>Right. Dale, thank you</p>
  10101.  
  10102.  
  10103.  
  10104. <p>Taya:</p>
  10105.  
  10106.  
  10107.  
  10108. <p>Dale, I have been given the signal that I definitely should let some of our other guests come on, and I need to stop talking about AI.</p>
  10109.  
  10110.  
  10111.  
  10112. <p>Dale:</p>
  10113.  
  10114.  
  10115.  
  10116. <p>Yeah, sorry to the production team. I was clicking buttons, and I didn&#8217;t know what some of them did, and I think I-</p>
  10117.  
  10118.  
  10119.  
  10120. <p>Taya:</p>
  10121.  
  10122.  
  10123.  
  10124. <p>You popped up a two-cipher. It&#8217;s all good. We were happy to see you.</p>
  10125.  
  10126.  
  10127.  
  10128. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10129.  
  10130.  
  10131.  
  10132. <p>Yep.</p>
  10133.  
  10134.  
  10135.  
  10136. <p>Dale:</p>
  10137.  
  10138.  
  10139.  
  10140. <p>All right.</p>
  10141.  
  10142.  
  10143.  
  10144. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10145.  
  10146.  
  10147.  
  10148. <p>Dale, thank you so much-</p>
  10149.  
  10150.  
  10151.  
  10152. <p>Taya:</p>
  10153.  
  10154.  
  10155.  
  10156. <p>Thank you so much for joining us.</p>
  10157.  
  10158.  
  10159.  
  10160. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10161.  
  10162.  
  10163.  
  10164. <p>&#8230; and congratulations on all your amazing work and-</p>
  10165.  
  10166.  
  10167.  
  10168. <p>Taya:</p>
  10169.  
  10170.  
  10171.  
  10172. <p>We love it.</p>
  10173.  
  10174.  
  10175.  
  10176. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10177.  
  10178.  
  10179.  
  10180. <p>&#8230; the success of your channel. It&#8217;s inspiring, to say the least.</p>
  10181.  
  10182.  
  10183.  
  10184. <p>Taya:</p>
  10185.  
  10186.  
  10187.  
  10188. <p>Absolutely. Thank you for what you do to help educate people. Because you do a terrific job-</p>
  10189.  
  10190.  
  10191.  
  10192. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10193.  
  10194.  
  10195.  
  10196. <p>You do.</p>
  10197.  
  10198.  
  10199.  
  10200. <p>Taya:</p>
  10201.  
  10202.  
  10203.  
  10204. <p>&#8230; adding the law to it. A lot of people, myself included, don&#8217;t realize the legality, some of the finer points of these police stops. You&#8217;re really helping educated people, me included, so thank you.</p>
  10205.  
  10206.  
  10207.  
  10208. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10209.  
  10210.  
  10211.  
  10212. <p>Thank you, and thank you for coming on.</p>
  10213.  
  10214.  
  10215.  
  10216. <p>Dale:</p>
  10217.  
  10218.  
  10219.  
  10220. <p>[inaudible 00:59:37] time, I appreciate it.</p>
  10221.  
  10222.  
  10223.  
  10224. <p>Taya:</p>
  10225.  
  10226.  
  10227.  
  10228. <p>All right, you take care.</p>
  10229.  
  10230.  
  10231.  
  10232. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10233.  
  10234.  
  10235.  
  10236. <p>Take care.</p>
  10237.  
  10238.  
  10239.  
  10240. <p>Taya:</p>
  10241.  
  10242.  
  10243.  
  10244. <p>Wow. I&#8217;m so glad we got to talk to him. We&#8217;re about to have someone very special coming up.</p>
  10245.  
  10246.  
  10247.  
  10248. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10249.  
  10250.  
  10251.  
  10252. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  10253.  
  10254.  
  10255.  
  10256. <p>Taya:</p>
  10257.  
  10258.  
  10259.  
  10260. <p>We&#8217;re about to be joined by a true original, a man, whose blend of satire, critique, and sometimes even absurd antics, makes him an impossible act to imitate. Take a look. Whoops. I did not need to put that up there. This man is a committed, independent journalist, who&#8217;s recently focused on the courts, to expand his efforts to hold police accountable. I&#8217;m, of course, talking about the man, the myth, the legend, James Freeman. James, thank you so much for joining us.</p>
  10261.  
  10262.  
  10263.  
  10264. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10265.  
  10266.  
  10267.  
  10268. <p>Thank you, James.</p>
  10269.  
  10270.  
  10271.  
  10272. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10273.  
  10274.  
  10275.  
  10276. <p>Oh, I had it muted. Sorry. Hey guys, thanks for having me on the show.</p>
  10277.  
  10278.  
  10279.  
  10280. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10281.  
  10282.  
  10283.  
  10284. <p>I mean, those are such fascinating videos you do-</p>
  10285.  
  10286.  
  10287.  
  10288. <p>Taya:</p>
  10289.  
  10290.  
  10291.  
  10292. <p>Yes.</p>
  10293.  
  10294.  
  10295.  
  10296. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10297.  
  10298.  
  10299.  
  10300. <p>&#8230; because it exposes the absurdity of how police control space. Every time I watch them, I learn something new about them.</p>
  10301.  
  10302.  
  10303.  
  10304. <p>Taya:</p>
  10305.  
  10306.  
  10307.  
  10308. <p>I love it.</p>
  10309.  
  10310.  
  10311.  
  10312. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10313.  
  10314.  
  10315.  
  10316. <p>Just because when you juxtapose those roles, it reveals how those rules really operate on us, in ways psychologically we don&#8217;t think about. Every time I watch them, I&#8217;m like, &#8220;Wow, this is really like&#8230; this should be&#8230; I once read a book about 20th century theory of police power. James has actually explained it in a better way than reading a 200-page book. I just should have watched your videos, instead of reading certain things.&#8221; It really, it&#8217;s pretty phenomenal.</p>
  10317.  
  10318.  
  10319.  
  10320. <p>Taya:</p>
  10321.  
  10322.  
  10323.  
  10324. <p>I completely agree.</p>
  10325.  
  10326.  
  10327.  
  10328. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10329.  
  10330.  
  10331.  
  10332. <p>Thank you.</p>
  10333.  
  10334.  
  10335.  
  10336. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10337.  
  10338.  
  10339.  
  10340. <p>Yeah.</p>
  10341.  
  10342.  
  10343.  
  10344. <p>Taya:</p>
  10345.  
  10346.  
  10347.  
  10348. <p>James, first to start off on something a little less fun first, I wanted to get your reaction to Eric&#8217;s latest indictment. I know you know him well, you&#8217;re friends. If you don&#8217;t mind sharing with us what your reaction is.</p>
  10349.  
  10350.  
  10351.  
  10352. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10353.  
  10354.  
  10355.  
  10356. <p>It&#8217;s sad, it&#8217;s disappointing. Honestly, I still continue to get shocked by these people. I continually say, &#8220;I think I&#8217;ve seen everything.&#8221; This is what we can expect from them though, they&#8217;re terrorists, and that&#8217;s what they do is they terrorize people. Especially people like Eric Grant, he is still a very strong voice, whether he&#8217;s outside of the cage, or inside of the cage. Like you guys talked about, he&#8217;s been very successful at continuing to help other people, while he&#8217;s in. Eric has never been a threat to anybody. The reason that he&#8217;s in jail is because he allegedly made threats, allegedly made threats of violence. Eric isn&#8217;t dangerous, because he would violently attack someone. Eric is dangerous to the government, because he tells the truth, and he shows the truth.</p>
  10357.  
  10358.  
  10359.  
  10360. <p>Taya:</p>
  10361.  
  10362.  
  10363.  
  10364. <p>Well said.</p>
  10365.  
  10366.  
  10367.  
  10368. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10369.  
  10370.  
  10371.  
  10372. <p>There&#8217;s nothing more dangerous than that, to them.</p>
  10373.  
  10374.  
  10375.  
  10376. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10377.  
  10378.  
  10379.  
  10380. <p>You make a really good point, because allegedly Eric was in Colorado when he is making these threats. But again, I want to ask this question again, because this is a very important question. Does the timing of this indictment-</p>
  10381.  
  10382.  
  10383.  
  10384. <p>Taya:</p>
  10385.  
  10386.  
  10387.  
  10388. <p>Yes.</p>
  10389.  
  10390.  
  10391.  
  10392. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10393.  
  10394.  
  10395.  
  10396. <p>&#8230; raise any questions for you?</p>
  10397.  
  10398.  
  10399.  
  10400. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10401.  
  10402.  
  10403.  
  10404. <p>It looks like they had it planned all along.</p>
  10405.  
  10406.  
  10407.  
  10408. <p>Taya:</p>
  10409.  
  10410.  
  10411.  
  10412. <p>Wow.</p>
  10413.  
  10414.  
  10415.  
  10416. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10417.  
  10418.  
  10419.  
  10420. <p>I mean, he was about to get out, and they knew it. That&#8217;s, again, this is sadistic. This is plotted out. I guess we would call it premeditated even. I don&#8217;t see it as shock. I mean, they continue to shock me actually.</p>
  10421.  
  10422.  
  10423.  
  10424. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10425.  
  10426.  
  10427.  
  10428. <p>Wow.</p>
  10429.  
  10430.  
  10431.  
  10432. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10433.  
  10434.  
  10435.  
  10436. <p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a coincidence at all. I think they had it all planned out and said, &#8220;You know what? Let&#8217;s get him to where he&#8217;s got a glimpse of hope, and then let&#8217;s crush him.&#8221;</p>
  10437.  
  10438.  
  10439.  
  10440. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10441.  
  10442.  
  10443.  
  10444. <p>That&#8217;s really-</p>
  10445.  
  10446.  
  10447.  
  10448. <p>Taya:</p>
  10449.  
  10450.  
  10451.  
  10452. <p>Absolutely. First, let me just say thank you to some of the new subscribers we see here, and some of the great live chat donations. We really appreciate those super chats.</p>
  10453.  
  10454.  
  10455.  
  10456. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10457.  
  10458.  
  10459.  
  10460. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  10461.  
  10462.  
  10463.  
  10464. <p>Taya:</p>
  10465.  
  10466.  
  10467.  
  10468. <p>Hi to Matter of Rights, who&#8217;s one of my Patreons. We appreciate our Patreons, so hi, Matter of Rights. Okay. I had to make sure to do that.</p>
  10469.  
  10470.  
  10471.  
  10472. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10473.  
  10474.  
  10475.  
  10476. <p>Okay.</p>
  10477.  
  10478.  
  10479.  
  10480. <p>Taya:</p>
  10481.  
  10482.  
  10483.  
  10484. <p>I have another question. I&#8217;m multitasking.</p>
  10485.  
  10486.  
  10487.  
  10488. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10489.  
  10490.  
  10491.  
  10492. <p>Okay, fair enough.</p>
  10493.  
  10494.  
  10495.  
  10496. <p>Taya:</p>
  10497.  
  10498.  
  10499.  
  10500. <p>I had another question about Eric&#8217;s style. Some people feel that Eric&#8217;s style, just as doing his protests. Some people would say they were performance art. Some people would say they&#8217;re very creative. Other people would say it&#8217;s overly aggressive, loud, intrusive. How would you characterize it, and how would you defend it, if you would choose to defend it?</p>
  10501.  
  10502.  
  10503.  
  10504. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10505.  
  10506.  
  10507.  
  10508. <p>Oh, that&#8217;s an excellent question, because early on when I had started my channel, there were lots of people who commented both on my channel and on Eric&#8217;s, and said, &#8220;James would never work with Eric, because of the way he acts.&#8221; I made a special point to go out of my way to travel, to work with Eric, and told people, &#8220;Look, just because I don&#8217;t do things the exact way somebody else does, we need all different types. What Eric is doing is very important, and to be quite frank, I don&#8217;t want to do it.&#8221; I&#8217;m glad he was. He mentioned to me, when I went out there, he said, &#8220;I&#8217;ve done activism for so many years, and I never got any attention on anything that I was doing, until I started using that four letter word that starts with F, and all of a sudden everybody&#8217;s paying attention to my stuff.&#8221; I mean, he was effective at doing what he wanted to do.</p>
  10509.  
  10510.  
  10511.  
  10512. <p>Taya:</p>
  10513.  
  10514.  
  10515.  
  10516. <p>Well said.</p>
  10517.  
  10518.  
  10519.  
  10520. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10521.  
  10522.  
  10523.  
  10524. <p>I mean, it&#8217;s so fascinating, because we interviewed him about that, and he was talking about how many years he tried to break through the noise.</p>
  10525.  
  10526.  
  10527.  
  10528. <p>Taya:</p>
  10529.  
  10530.  
  10531.  
  10532. <p>Yes.</p>
  10533.  
  10534.  
  10535.  
  10536. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10537.  
  10538.  
  10539.  
  10540. <p>Then once he did, it&#8217;s a fascinating tale, because really he was calling attention to a grave injustice that homeless people were being abused, that the criminal justice system, that judges had serious problems, and conflicts of interest, and no one paid attention. Then when he finally got people to pay attention, suddenly they start indicting him. I will say that what he said in some cases, was offensive to me. But there are people that make threats like that all the time, and it&#8217;s not uncommon. It seems like, I think there&#8217;s a lot to what you say. Could you expand on that? Because really, was it the threats, or the threat of Eric&#8217;s truth that was the problem?</p>
  10541.  
  10542.  
  10543.  
  10544. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10545.  
  10546.  
  10547.  
  10548. <p>I really don&#8217;t even think that what he said was a threat. I even articulated to people, I was quite disgusted by it too, but I don&#8217;t believe it was a threat. His wording specifically, I don&#8217;t think-</p>
  10549.  
  10550.  
  10551.  
  10552. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10553.  
  10554.  
  10555.  
  10556. <p>Thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayers.</p>
  10557.  
  10558.  
  10559.  
  10560. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10561.  
  10562.  
  10563.  
  10564. <p>Right, and if you know him, he&#8217;s atheist-</p>
  10565.  
  10566.  
  10567.  
  10568. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10569.  
  10570.  
  10571.  
  10572. <p>Right.</p>
  10573.  
  10574.  
  10575.  
  10576. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10577.  
  10578.  
  10579.  
  10580. <p>&#8230; so prayers to who?</p>
  10581.  
  10582.  
  10583.  
  10584. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10585.  
  10586.  
  10587.  
  10588. <p>It&#8217;s really fascinating, because he would say thoughts and prayers, so in a way&#8230; because Eric&#8217;s uncannily brilliant on things. Look, we&#8217;re doing a documentary, a very long form piece.</p>
  10589.  
  10590.  
  10591.  
  10592. <p>Taya:</p>
  10593.  
  10594.  
  10595.  
  10596. <p>Yes.</p>
  10597.  
  10598.  
  10599.  
  10600. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10601.  
  10602.  
  10603.  
  10604. <p>I have gotten to know him, and when he was doing, he&#8217;s commenting on that idea of thoughts and prayers, when people get shot, and someone says, &#8220;My thoughts and prayers,&#8221; and I feel he&#8217;s at the same time satirizing, as he is criticizing.</p>
  10605.  
  10606.  
  10607.  
  10608. <p>Taya:</p>
  10609.  
  10610.  
  10611.  
  10612. <p>Yes.</p>
  10613.  
  10614.  
  10615.  
  10616. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10617.  
  10618.  
  10619.  
  10620. <p>Am I getting this right, you think?</p>
  10621.  
  10622.  
  10623.  
  10624. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10625.  
  10626.  
  10627.  
  10628. <p>I think you&#8217;re right, and his genius is beyond what I think a lot of people comprehend. Yeah, I think you nailed it.</p>
  10629.  
  10630.  
  10631.  
  10632. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10633.  
  10634.  
  10635.  
  10636. <p>Yeah. I mean, look, he is complex as they come, and there are many different ways to look at him, but sometimes when I sit down, and I was listening to some of those, because I had listened to them reading the recording, and thoughts and prayers, I&#8217;m like, &#8220;Well, Eric&#8217;s also making a commentary within this, that is quite brilliant in many ways, because it&#8217;s an empty phrase.&#8221; Right?</p>
  10637.  
  10638.  
  10639.  
  10640. <p>Taya:</p>
  10641.  
  10642.  
  10643.  
  10644. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  10645.  
  10646.  
  10647.  
  10648. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10649.  
  10650.  
  10651.  
  10652. <p>Yes.</p>
  10653.  
  10654.  
  10655.  
  10656. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10657.  
  10658.  
  10659.  
  10660. <p>It&#8217;s an empty phrase. We&#8217;re saying, &#8220;We&#8217;re not going to solve a problem. But we&#8217;re going to share our empty thoughts and prayers.&#8221;</p>
  10661.  
  10662.  
  10663.  
  10664. <p>Taya:</p>
  10665.  
  10666.  
  10667.  
  10668. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  10669.  
  10670.  
  10671.  
  10672. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10673.  
  10674.  
  10675.  
  10676. <p>Eric was couching in that, and I&#8217;m like,&#8221; &#8220;Wow. You&#8217;ve really got to be careful of making quick judgments about Eric&#8217;s behavior, or what he says, because there&#8217;s always layers to it.&#8221; I&#8217;m sure that you found that out too, James. But let me just move on to one thing, because the courts-</p>
  10677.  
  10678.  
  10679.  
  10680. <p>Taya:</p>
  10681.  
  10682.  
  10683.  
  10684. <p>Yes.</p>
  10685.  
  10686.  
  10687.  
  10688. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10689.  
  10690.  
  10691.  
  10692. <p>&#8230; you know, you have spent a lot of time holding courts accountable. Why is that important, and why do people ignore it, at their peril?</p>
  10693.  
  10694.  
  10695.  
  10696. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10697.  
  10698.  
  10699.  
  10700. <p>I think the courts are far more out of control than the police. When I first started my channel, that was where I actually put a good amount of attention. Then I realized that it was such an uphill battle, that I was going to win absolutely nothing on, that I stepped away from it. I don&#8217;t think the people were ready for it. But I want cameras in every courtroom, the way that cameras should be on every police interaction. To be quite honest, I don&#8217;t really care how it gets done. There are courts now, like the Ninth Circuit of Appeals, for example, has their own YouTube channel. They live stream almost all, if not all of their hearings. These things are supposed to be public.</p>
  10701.  
  10702.  
  10703.  
  10704. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10705.  
  10706.  
  10707.  
  10708. <p>Agreed.</p>
  10709.  
  10710.  
  10711.  
  10712. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10713.  
  10714.  
  10715.  
  10716. <p>They&#8217;ve always been supposed to be public. Back in the day, the whole point of a court recorder, the guy who sits there and writes, or types what&#8217;s going on is because nothing that&#8217;s going on in there is supposed to be a secret. It&#8217;s all supposed&#8230; and so basically to me, they&#8217;re just behind on the times. We have far more advanced technology than a freaking typewriter, to document what&#8217;s going on in the courts.</p>
  10717.  
  10718.  
  10719.  
  10720. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10721.  
  10722.  
  10723.  
  10724. <p>Are you sure?</p>
  10725.  
  10726.  
  10727.  
  10728. <p>Taya:</p>
  10729.  
  10730.  
  10731.  
  10732. <p>Well said.</p>
  10733.  
  10734.  
  10735.  
  10736. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10737.  
  10738.  
  10739.  
  10740. <p>Than a freaking typewriter.</p>
  10741.  
  10742.  
  10743.  
  10744. <p>Taya:</p>
  10745.  
  10746.  
  10747.  
  10748. <p>Right, right, or having a courtroom sketch artist.</p>
  10749.  
  10750.  
  10751.  
  10752. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10753.  
  10754.  
  10755.  
  10756. <p>Oh, God.</p>
  10757.  
  10758.  
  10759.  
  10760. <p>Taya:</p>
  10761.  
  10762.  
  10763.  
  10764. <p>I mean, something that absolutely drives me crazy in our Maryland courts is that we can&#8217;t record. I mean, it&#8217;s terrible.</p>
  10765.  
  10766.  
  10767.  
  10768. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10769.  
  10770.  
  10771.  
  10772. <p>You know what&#8217;s a perfect example of that? James, is that you were broadcasting Eric&#8217;s sentencing-</p>
  10773.  
  10774.  
  10775.  
  10776. <p>Taya:</p>
  10777.  
  10778.  
  10779.  
  10780. <p>Oh, that&#8217;s right.</p>
  10781.  
  10782.  
  10783.  
  10784. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10785.  
  10786.  
  10787.  
  10788. <p>&#8230; and that judge went down some passive illogic, that had just still astounds me to this day, when I listened to that. Had you not done that, it would not be out there-</p>
  10789.  
  10790.  
  10791.  
  10792. <p>Taya:</p>
  10793.  
  10794.  
  10795.  
  10796. <p>That&#8217;s right.</p>
  10797.  
  10798.  
  10799.  
  10800. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10801.  
  10802.  
  10803.  
  10804. <p>&#8230; accessible to people to hear the audacity and the absurdity of his logic, when it came to sentencing Eric. You know? I appreciate that.</p>
  10805.  
  10806.  
  10807.  
  10808. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10809.  
  10810.  
  10811.  
  10812. <p>Yeah.</p>
  10813.  
  10814.  
  10815.  
  10816. <p>Taya:</p>
  10817.  
  10818.  
  10819.  
  10820. <p>Absolutely. It was really important, in particular, because that judge, Judge Hoffman, who also wrote a book called The Punisher&#8217;s Brain-</p>
  10821.  
  10822.  
  10823.  
  10824. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10825.  
  10826.  
  10827.  
  10828. <p>That was just bizarre.</p>
  10829.  
  10830.  
  10831.  
  10832. <p>Taya:</p>
  10833.  
  10834.  
  10835.  
  10836. <p>&#8230; who went into this entire speech about how there&#8217;s four different types of justice. There&#8217;s retributive justice, and all this, rehabilitative justice. Then he says, he&#8217;s talking about it, and he&#8217;s talking about how he doesn&#8217;t want to give retributive justice, and then he immediately gives vengeful retributive justice. It was astonishing to me.</p>
  10837.  
  10838.  
  10839.  
  10840. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10841.  
  10842.  
  10843.  
  10844. <p>Right, on top of that, the whole thing is on Zoom, and then he&#8217;s like, &#8220;But don&#8217;t publish it. Don&#8217;t let anyone hear it,&#8221; even though it&#8217;s already on freaking Zoom. Which to your point, James, is the lack of&#8230; the actual cognitive dissonance of the legal system and judges. Yeah, I&#8217;m on Zoom where anyone can join, but God forbid you put it on YouTube, so the general public can hear it? That makes no sense.</p>
  10845.  
  10846.  
  10847.  
  10848. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10849.  
  10850.  
  10851.  
  10852. <p>I think what it is too, is it comes down to controlling the narrative.</p>
  10853.  
  10854.  
  10855.  
  10856. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10857.  
  10858.  
  10859.  
  10860. <p>Yes.</p>
  10861.  
  10862.  
  10863.  
  10864. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10865.  
  10866.  
  10867.  
  10868. <p>I can publish it on my channel, but you can&#8217;t publish it on yours.</p>
  10869.  
  10870.  
  10871.  
  10872. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10873.  
  10874.  
  10875.  
  10876. <p>Right.</p>
  10877.  
  10878.  
  10879.  
  10880. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10881.  
  10882.  
  10883.  
  10884. <p>It&#8217;s about controlling the narrative, I think.</p>
  10885.  
  10886.  
  10887.  
  10888. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10889.  
  10890.  
  10891.  
  10892. <p>It is so much about controlling the narrative. It is so much about self-justification, and I think Eric and James had brought up, we focus on police accountability. But my God, the judiciary operates, as you said, and you&#8217;ve already said this, so I&#8217;m repeating it, but I want to say, with emphasis, that I&#8217;ve witnessed so many things in courtrooms, that are far worse than a traffic stop. You know what I mean? I&#8217;ve seen judges put people in jail for absolutely nothing.</p>
  10893.  
  10894.  
  10895.  
  10896. <p>Taya:</p>
  10897.  
  10898.  
  10899.  
  10900. <p>You&#8217;ve seen drunk judges on the bench.</p>
  10901.  
  10902.  
  10903.  
  10904. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10905.  
  10906.  
  10907.  
  10908. <p>I&#8217;ve seen drunk&#8230;. all sorts of stuff. It&#8217;s shameful, because judges are just so empowered, and are so imperious when you&#8217;re in court. I think, James, you&#8217;re right, but it&#8217;s a much harder branch of government to fight, because they really have archaic methods. You can&#8217;t have a camera in a courtroom. I&#8217;ve literally been almost arrested for opening my cell phone, when I&#8217;m trying to report on a case.</p>
  10909.  
  10910.  
  10911.  
  10912. <p>Taya:</p>
  10913.  
  10914.  
  10915.  
  10916. <p>Right.</p>
  10917.  
  10918.  
  10919.  
  10920. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10921.  
  10922.  
  10923.  
  10924. <p>The judge is like, &#8220;What are you doing with that cell phone?&#8221; The bailiff comes over, and they&#8217;re all so pleased with themselves that they&#8217;re controlling you, to the point where you can&#8217;t really cover what they&#8217;re doing.</p>
  10925.  
  10926.  
  10927.  
  10928. <p>Taya:</p>
  10929.  
  10930.  
  10931.  
  10932. <p>Yeah.</p>
  10933.  
  10934.  
  10935.  
  10936. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10937.  
  10938.  
  10939.  
  10940. <p>Yeah, and I think, I usually don&#8217;t&#8230; actually, I really never like looking at government for a solution to a problem. But I think the problem though is that the legislature has essentially granted the court&#8217;s power to make their own rules in their courtroom, but it&#8217;s gone too far. I think it&#8217;s going to need to come down to the legislature writing something, saying, &#8220;No, these are some things that you can&#8217;t restrict, in setting some boundaries.&#8221;</p>
  10941.  
  10942.  
  10943.  
  10944. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10945.  
  10946.  
  10947.  
  10948. <p>I agree.</p>
  10949.  
  10950.  
  10951.  
  10952. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  10953.  
  10954.  
  10955.  
  10956. <p>I mean, I thought that was the whole point of a system of checks and balances, that the different didn&#8217;t work together, but quite literally worked against each other, and said, &#8220;Wait a second. You&#8217;re wrong. We&#8217;re going to step in and kick you in the butt.&#8221;</p>
  10957.  
  10958.  
  10959.  
  10960. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10961.  
  10962.  
  10963.  
  10964. <p>I mean, I agree, because usually an administrative judge can say&#8230; as you know, in your fight with New Mexico courts, the administrative judge has all this power to do all sorts of crazy stuff, that without proper oversight, or checks and balances, can just get out of control.</p>
  10965.  
  10966.  
  10967.  
  10968. <p>Taya:</p>
  10969.  
  10970.  
  10971.  
  10972. <p>Yes. Absolutely. James, I had another question for you, and I know it&#8217;s somewhat broad, but I wanted to know what you&#8217;ve learned about American policing, over your years of covering it from your viewpoint, your unique viewpoint, what stands out to you? What are the lessons James Freeman learned from covering police, in the unique way that you have? I know it&#8217;s a big, a broad question. I&#8217;m sorry.</p>
  10973.  
  10974.  
  10975.  
  10976. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10977.  
  10978.  
  10979.  
  10980. <p>Yeah. Sorry.</p>
  10981.  
  10982.  
  10983.  
  10984. <p>Taya:</p>
  10985.  
  10986.  
  10987.  
  10988. <p>I&#8217;m sorry.</p>
  10989.  
  10990.  
  10991.  
  10992. <p>Stephen:</p>
  10993.  
  10994.  
  10995.  
  10996. <p>Sorry, we&#8217;re putting you on.</p>
  10997.  
  10998.  
  10999.  
  11000. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  11001.  
  11002.  
  11003.  
  11004. <p>No, no, no. That&#8217;s all right. I&#8217;m trying to think. I think that some of my best videos that have exposed, to other people as well as myself, how police really are, is that it seems that once a man is told that he has power or authority over other men, that he just does things that are completely unnatural. That video that you showed, for my intro, of me walking up to this guy, I don&#8217;t know who he is. I&#8217;ve never met him in my life. I&#8217;ve got no reason to interact with him, at all. If I do, as a normal human, I should just say, &#8220;Hey, hello, how&#8217;re you doing?&#8221; But to walk up to another man, and just start demanding things, and trying to take control over that person, it&#8217;s sick, it&#8217;s wrong. But these people have been told that&#8230; they&#8217;ve got it in their head, that they literally have a right. They have the authority to just arbitrarily control everyone around them.</p>
  11005.  
  11006.  
  11007.  
  11008. <p>The whole point of asking someone to disarm themselves, or trying to disarm someone, it&#8217;s all about gaining power, being the most powerful person in the room, and establishing that dominance over everybody, the moment you walk in. In doing it, honestly, it&#8217;s a character that I play, but man, I&#8217;ve gone back, after doing it going, &#8220;That is sick.&#8221; I was even disturbed by the fact that this cop let me do it. Most of the people in the comments are like, &#8220;Man, this is the nicest cop ever.&#8221; No human should tolerate that from another human. It&#8217;s wrong.</p>
  11009.  
  11010.  
  11011.  
  11012. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11013.  
  11014.  
  11015.  
  11016. <p>That is profound. That is truly profound. I think, I mean, because James, what you point out is we take police power for granted, and we pretty much have all been indoctrinated into accepting the fact that an individual can walk up to us and say, &#8220;Stand over here.&#8221;</p>
  11017.  
  11018.  
  11019.  
  11020. <p>Taya:</p>
  11021.  
  11022.  
  11023.  
  11024. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  11025.  
  11026.  
  11027.  
  11028. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11029.  
  11030.  
  11031.  
  11032. <p>&#8220;Tell me this. Give me your ID,&#8221; that kind of stuff. I think that&#8217;s why your videos are so important, and vital, in many ways, because you really do bring that&#8230; there&#8217;s not many people who have been able to so starkly illustrate the effect of police power, and especially police overreach. We appreciate you, and thank you for coming on.</p>
  11033.  
  11034.  
  11035.  
  11036. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  11037.  
  11038.  
  11039.  
  11040. <p>Thank you.</p>
  11041.  
  11042.  
  11043.  
  11044. <p>Taya:</p>
  11045.  
  11046.  
  11047.  
  11048. <p>Yeah, absolutely. I just wanted to make sure, James&#8230; do we have to go to our next guest?</p>
  11049.  
  11050.  
  11051.  
  11052. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11053.  
  11054.  
  11055.  
  11056. <p>We really do.</p>
  11057.  
  11058.  
  11059.  
  11060. <p>Taya:</p>
  11061.  
  11062.  
  11063.  
  11064. <p>We do. James, I hate letting you go, because I want to pick your brain, and especially you know me, I really want to have a follow-up conversation with you. When you say you don&#8217;t like to look to government for a solution, I really want to have a follow-up conversation with you about alternative solutions.</p>
  11065.  
  11066.  
  11067.  
  11068. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11069.  
  11070.  
  11071.  
  11072. <p>That would be for-</p>
  11073.  
  11074.  
  11075.  
  11076. <p>Taya:</p>
  11077.  
  11078.  
  11079.  
  11080. <p>We&#8217;re going to have to have that conversation sometime.</p>
  11081.  
  11082.  
  11083.  
  11084. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11085.  
  11086.  
  11087.  
  11088. <p>Yes, we will.</p>
  11089.  
  11090.  
  11091.  
  11092. <p>Taya:</p>
  11093.  
  11094.  
  11095.  
  11096. <p>Okay?</p>
  11097.  
  11098.  
  11099.  
  11100. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11101.  
  11102.  
  11103.  
  11104. <p>But we appreciate it. Thank you for coming on and celebrating our fifth anniversary with us.</p>
  11105.  
  11106.  
  11107.  
  11108. <p>Taya:</p>
  11109.  
  11110.  
  11111.  
  11112. <p>Yes, we appreciate it so much.</p>
  11113.  
  11114.  
  11115.  
  11116. <p>James Freeman:</p>
  11117.  
  11118.  
  11119.  
  11120. <p>Thank you guys, and congratulations, and thank you for everything you&#8217;ve done for this five years. I&#8217;m happy for your guys&#8217; anniversary. Thanks.</p>
  11121.  
  11122.  
  11123.  
  11124. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11125.  
  11126.  
  11127.  
  11128. <p>Thanks.</p>
  11129.  
  11130.  
  11131.  
  11132. <p>Taya:</p>
  11133.  
  11134.  
  11135.  
  11136. <p>Thank you.</p>
  11137.  
  11138.  
  11139.  
  11140. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11141.  
  11142.  
  11143.  
  11144. <p>Thanks.</p>
  11145.  
  11146.  
  11147.  
  11148. <p>Taya:</p>
  11149.  
  11150.  
  11151.  
  11152. <p>We really appreciate that. Oh, that&#8217;s great. It&#8217;s always good to see.</p>
  11153.  
  11154.  
  11155.  
  11156. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11157.  
  11158.  
  11159.  
  11160. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  11161.  
  11162.  
  11163.  
  11164. <p>Taya:</p>
  11165.  
  11166.  
  11167.  
  11168. <p>Now our next epic cop watcher, our guests are continuing one, by one, by one.</p>
  11169.  
  11170.  
  11171.  
  11172. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11173.  
  11174.  
  11175.  
  11176. <p>This is amazing, that we&#8217;ve talked to, and we have still legends to come.</p>
  11177.  
  11178.  
  11179.  
  11180. <p>Taya:</p>
  11181.  
  11182.  
  11183.  
  11184. <p>I know. We have more to come, more legends to come, you guys.</p>
  11185.  
  11186.  
  11187.  
  11188. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11189.  
  11190.  
  11191.  
  11192. <p>We&#8217;ve talked to legends. It&#8217;s amazing to me, it really is.</p>
  11193.  
  11194.  
  11195.  
  11196. <p>Taya:</p>
  11197.  
  11198.  
  11199.  
  11200. <p>Now, our guests, honestly, they really don&#8217;t need an introduction. In a world where cop watching can sometimes become almost too over the top, the Battousai stands out for his measured, and almost understated approach, but is one that sure gets results. Let&#8217;s take a look. Okay. Hey, Philip, best known as the Battousai. Thank you so much for joining us.</p>
  11201.  
  11202.  
  11203.  
  11204. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11205.  
  11206.  
  11207.  
  11208. <p>Thanks for being here.</p>
  11209.  
  11210.  
  11211.  
  11212. <p>Otto:</p>
  11213.  
  11214.  
  11215.  
  11216. <p>Hi. Thank you for having me.</p>
  11217.  
  11218.  
  11219.  
  11220. <p>Taya:</p>
  11221.  
  11222.  
  11223.  
  11224. <p>We really appreciate it, and I know you&#8217;re always asked this question, but I just want to make sure, for the people who might not be familiar with you. One of the reasons why you are so well respected in this community, is because you have actually made case law to protect people&#8217;s right to record, to actually protect people&#8217;s First Amendment rights. It was a decision that&#8217;s known as Turner v Driver, I believe a cop arrested you. I think for maybe trying to film a police station. We know what the decision is, but can you just talk a little bit about it, and how you&#8217;ve had to keep fighting to protect that right?</p>
  11225.  
  11226.  
  11227.  
  11228. <p>Otto:</p>
  11229.  
  11230.  
  11231.  
  11232. <p>This all started when I was actually in college. I was in college, worked a part-time job, and I learned about my rights. They don&#8217;t teach you this stuff in high school, of course, they don&#8217;t want to teach you this in public systems. But I actually ended up learning this, because the State of Texas made it mandatory, that in order to get your degree, you needed to take US government, and Texas local state government. Over the summer when I took those classes, I learned how to pretty much stand up for your rights, exercise, those rights. One book, in particular, really pushed me over the edge, and it was called Convicting the Innocent. I had to do a book report on that for my US government class, and that really stood out to me.</p>
  11233.  
  11234.  
  11235.  
  11236. <p>I started digging, digging, digging on YouTube, and then that&#8217;s when I discovered the whole cop watching room. This is where I came across channels like Tom Zebra, Jeff Gray, PINAC News, like Sean Thomas. These are some of the guys that&#8217;s been doing it for a long time. I&#8217;ve been watching and just learning from these guys, and I&#8217;ve decided that, you know what? I want to do this same cop watching activity in my city. Before I knew it, things just took off.</p>
  11237.  
  11238.  
  11239.  
  11240. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11241.  
  11242.  
  11243.  
  11244. <p>Well, one of the things we had talked about, when we had you on the show before, was that even though you got this ruling, you still&#8230; police didn&#8217;t really seem to abide by it. Is that my understanding, that they created laws that didn&#8217;t totally go to the heart, or the letter of the decision that was made, that you won? I mean, is that right, in some way?</p>
  11245.  
  11246.  
  11247.  
  11248. <p>Otto:</p>
  11249.  
  11250.  
  11251.  
  11252. <p>Well, not in Texas. Texas, I think they&#8217;re being very careful here. They&#8217;re saying you can record, but you&#8217;ve got to do it from back over there. There&#8217;s some things that you can do to test the limits here. Most times they&#8217;ll tell you to stand back, but I guarantee you, if you put the camera there, and you take a step back, they&#8217;ll be like, &#8220;You can&#8217;t leave your camera there. It&#8217;s interfering.&#8221; It&#8217;s just those type of things that you have to think of on the fly, things to improvise the situation. For instance, even though Turner v Driver has established a right to report police officers in Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi, I do believe that there are officers who are undermining that. They get away with things by shining the light in your camera, blocking your view by positioning themselves in front of your camera, and the action that&#8217;s going on, or playing copyrighted music, to try to see if they can get your videos taken down, so you can&#8217;t monetize it.</p>
  11253.  
  11254.  
  11255.  
  11256. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11257.  
  11258.  
  11259.  
  11260. <p>Oh, my gosh, so devious.</p>
  11261.  
  11262.  
  11263.  
  11264. <p>Otto:</p>
  11265.  
  11266.  
  11267.  
  11268. <p>There&#8217;s different steps that officers are doing, and if only they put this much effort into doing their job correctly, they wouldn&#8217;t have to worry about the camera, in the first place.</p>
  11269.  
  11270.  
  11271.  
  11272. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11273.  
  11274.  
  11275.  
  11276. <p>That&#8217;s a really good point. I mean, and that does make me question though, for example&#8230; one thing I wanted to ask you is, the Fifth Circuit has a reputation&#8230; which is Texas. The Fifth Circuit has a reputation for being very pro-cop. How did you even win that case? I&#8217;ve been meaning to ask you this question, because I&#8217;ve had people who we&#8217;ve reported on, they say, well, they go to a lawyer, and they say, &#8220;Well, you can&#8217;t win in the Fifth Circuit, so I can&#8217;t sue on your behalf.&#8221; How did you actually win, in the Fifth Circuit?</p>
  11277.  
  11278.  
  11279.  
  11280. <p>Otto:</p>
  11281.  
  11282.  
  11283.  
  11284. <p>This is what I try to tell a lot of people, and this is what makes me a little successful, is because you&#8217;ve got to study the game. Unfortunately, it&#8217;s just all one big game. Once you learn how to play the game, you can use the rules against them. That&#8217;s pretty much how I stepped into the scene, because once you realize what to do, and how to do it, there&#8217;s a lot you can do, going forward, to get things established, and get things set, right away. One of my philosophies is, &#8220;Give the officer the shovel, let them dig themselves a hole.&#8221; Ask the right questions, record it, and you never know how far that video&#8217;s going to go. I try to do it from a professional standpoint, but I love the different styles of cop watching out there. I think there&#8217;s a lot to learn from everyone. That&#8217;s what I enjoy watching a lot of people.</p>
  11285.  
  11286.  
  11287.  
  11288. <p>But unfortunately, when you&#8217;re dealing with the courts, you have to play the game, and then you have to beat them with their own rules. That&#8217;s something that I have to live with my life, even before cop watching, it&#8217;s just growing up. You&#8217;ve got to learn how to play within the rules, and then use the rules to get your way. You know what I mean?</p>
  11289.  
  11290.  
  11291.  
  11292. <p>Taya:</p>
  11293.  
  11294.  
  11295.  
  11296. <p>You know, Battousai, I just wanted you to know there was this great comment that said that you could survive a bear attack, cool as a cucumber. Michael Willis, hi Michael Willis, we appreciate you, said, &#8220;This guy&#8217;s awesome. He&#8217;s doing it the right way, to my taste, making case law in the process. You guys want change? This guy has the combination to unlock change.&#8221; Just to let you know, you are very much appreciated. The way that you have fought for our right to record, and our first amendment rights, is really appreciated.</p>
  11297.  
  11298.  
  11299.  
  11300. <p>But to go towards what Stephen was talking about, in relation to the Fifth Circuit, even here in Maryland, attorneys have shared with me that it&#8217;s very difficult to sue, because the judges are so pro-cop. There are people I&#8217;ve spoken to, across the country, who can&#8217;t even find a civil rights attorney who&#8217;s even willing to help them sue, because they know that they&#8217;re just going to get slapped down by the judge, or the attorney is worried about alienating themselves from the larger judicial community. I mean, have you found this to be the case? Have you found it, that attorneys have said that it&#8217;s difficult to sue, or that judges are particularly pro-cop?</p>
  11301.  
  11302.  
  11303.  
  11304. <p>Otto:</p>
  11305.  
  11306.  
  11307.  
  11308. <p>Yes. Yes. I remember this very well, even when I first started recording. Just trying to&#8230; I think I talked to at least maybe 10 to 15 attorneys to take my cases to begin with, and it was just an uphill battle. Most of the times, attorneys would not take my cases, because there was no damages. There was nothing there to make money off of. In fact, it was just more of, &#8220;If I can&#8217;t make a decent chunk of change out of this, then I&#8217;m not interested. It&#8217;s not worth my time.&#8221; I&#8217;ve heard that from many attorneys. Then that&#8217;s when I met Kervyn Altaffer and I met Kervyn Altaffer through Brett Sanders. When I spoke with Kervyn Altaffer, we talked for about two hours, the first time we met. From within those first two hours, I mean, we became really close. He took all my cases, and I think after that, I believe TML started putting me on their radar, because we were just suing, getting settlement checks.</p>
  11309.  
  11310.  
  11311.  
  11312. <p>Then as soon as our case went to the Fifth Circuit, those settlement checks were used to fund Turner v Driver. It wasn&#8217;t just a, &#8220;Oh, he&#8217;s settling to get money.&#8221; But keep in mind, when I was doing all this, I was in college, part-time. Where am I going to get 35K to fund an appeal? You know what I mean?</p>
  11313.  
  11314.  
  11315.  
  11316. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11317.  
  11318.  
  11319.  
  11320. <p>Yeah.</p>
  11321.  
  11322.  
  11323.  
  11324. <p>Otto:</p>
  11325.  
  11326.  
  11327.  
  11328. <p>From my settlements, I used that to fund that, and even though the officers got qualified immunity, the overall battle was lost, but the war was won, when we got Turner v Driver. Because a lot of people were able to use that case law to prove that it&#8217;s been established, so these officers don&#8217;t get qualified immunity. I think yes, it&#8217;s a win, but I think now you have to position yourself as in, &#8220;Okay, now you get to the point to where judges are super pro-police, and that pretty much any ruling, or any situation that gets presented in front of a judge, are going to side with the police.&#8221;</p>
  11329.  
  11330.  
  11331.  
  11332. <p>Well, whenever you think about it, you have to think that&#8230; you&#8217;ve got to try to make the officer look bad, and you just look like an angel. Just to put it in a nutshell, that&#8217;s just how it&#8217;s going to be.</p>
  11333.  
  11334.  
  11335.  
  11336. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11337.  
  11338.  
  11339.  
  11340. <p>That&#8217;s interesting.</p>
  11341.  
  11342.  
  11343.  
  11344. <p>Otto:</p>
  11345.  
  11346.  
  11347.  
  11348. <p>Unfortunately, it has to be like that, in order to get any movement in a court. Otherwise, even if you&#8217;re on the same level as a cop, if the cop&#8217;s being rude, and you&#8217;re being rude, they&#8217;re going to side with the cop, because he&#8217;s a cop. But if the cop&#8217;s being rude, and you&#8217;re just being as nice as a 76-year-old lady, who just came from a Sunday night service in the church, they&#8217;re probably going to side with the lady.</p>
  11349.  
  11350.  
  11351.  
  11352. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11353.  
  11354.  
  11355.  
  11356. <p>Okay.</p>
  11357.  
  11358.  
  11359.  
  11360. <p>Otto:</p>
  11361.  
  11362.  
  11363.  
  11364. <p>But it&#8217;s unfortunate that you have to go that far, to that link, just to get any movement with the courts, to be honest.</p>
  11365.  
  11366.  
  11367.  
  11368. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11369.  
  11370.  
  11371.  
  11372. <p>I thought it makes you a master of the cop-watching universe, that you thought, stylistically, how your style would translate into a court setting, into a higher court setting, into an entire process. That&#8217;s pretty freaking amazing, to think that far ahead-</p>
  11373.  
  11374.  
  11375.  
  11376. <p>Taya:</p>
  11377.  
  11378.  
  11379.  
  11380. <p>I know.</p>
  11381.  
  11382.  
  11383.  
  11384. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11385.  
  11386.  
  11387.  
  11388. <p>&#8230; and say, &#8220;Hey, I have to look sympathetic, if I&#8217;m going to win legal precedent-</p>
  11389.  
  11390.  
  11391.  
  11392. <p>PART 3 OF 5 ENDS [01:27:04]</p>
  11393.  
  11394.  
  11395.  
  11396. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11397.  
  11398.  
  11399.  
  11400. <p>Hey, I have to look sympathetic if I&#8217;m going to win legal precedent. I&#8217;m impressed.</p>
  11401.  
  11402.  
  11403.  
  11404. <p>Taya:</p>
  11405.  
  11406.  
  11407.  
  11408. <p>I mean, I have to ask. I mean, you&#8217;re noted for your deliberate style, how you do not allow yourself to get ruffled, how you don&#8217;t slip into profanity. Because you&#8217;re thinking long game, you&#8217;re playing chess. But are you still sticking with that formula? I have to wonder sometimes, don&#8217;t you just want to get loud? Don&#8217;t you just want to put that bird?</p>
  11409.  
  11410.  
  11411.  
  11412. <p>Otto:</p>
  11413.  
  11414.  
  11415.  
  11416. <p>You have no idea. Oh, man. You have no idea. There&#8217;s been so many times I have been test, I have been pushed to my limits. But I just like, &#8220;You know what? This is pretty much what they want.&#8221; And it&#8217;s like, I can&#8217;t do that. There&#8217;s a bigger picture here at play, and I have to stick to my convictions, and I have to keep pushing forward.</p>
  11417.  
  11418.  
  11419.  
  11420. <p>And there was one thing that I do want to say because this was part of the clip that you played with Corrigan, where they had the illegal signs posted on the side of the building? Well, we went to mediation for that. So, during the mediation we had a retired federal judge, and we can&#8217;t really talk about what happened during the mediation process, but what happened afterwards was something that really shocked me.</p>
  11421.  
  11422.  
  11423.  
  11424. <p>Because as soon as we were leaving, the retired judge, she shook all of our hands. But then whenever she shook my hand, she&#8217;s like, &#8220;Hang on, Mr. Turner. I read a lot about you, and I&#8217;m very impressed, and I&#8217;m very proud of you.&#8221; And it&#8217;s like, &#8220;You have no idea how many people actually support some of the things you guys are doing.&#8221;</p>
  11425.  
  11426.  
  11427.  
  11428. <p>So that kind of just hit a light switch for me. It was like, &#8220;Yes, we are actually making a positive impact.&#8221; And even though that there are judges that are pro-police, there are judges who are pro-Constitution.</p>
  11429.  
  11430.  
  11431.  
  11432. <p>Taya:</p>
  11433.  
  11434.  
  11435.  
  11436. <p>That&#8217;s so good to hear.</p>
  11437.  
  11438.  
  11439.  
  11440. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11441.  
  11442.  
  11443.  
  11444. <p>That&#8217;s an amazing story.</p>
  11445.  
  11446.  
  11447.  
  11448. <p>Taya:</p>
  11449.  
  11450.  
  11451.  
  11452. <p>That&#8217;s so heartening.</p>
  11453.  
  11454.  
  11455.  
  11456. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11457.  
  11458.  
  11459.  
  11460. <p>Wow.</p>
  11461.  
  11462.  
  11463.  
  11464. <p>Taya:</p>
  11465.  
  11466.  
  11467.  
  11468. <p>That&#8217;s a beautiful story. That helps renew my hope. It really does.</p>
  11469.  
  11470.  
  11471.  
  11472. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11473.  
  11474.  
  11475.  
  11476. <p>Truthfully.</p>
  11477.  
  11478.  
  11479.  
  11480. <p>Otto:</p>
  11481.  
  11482.  
  11483.  
  11484. <p>Yeah. It&#8217;s going to be uphill battle. And I don&#8217;t know if you knew, but that Corrigan situation, I got them to sign the signs that they took down from the building. I got all the defendants to sign the back of it.</p>
  11485.  
  11486.  
  11487.  
  11488. <p>Taya:</p>
  11489.  
  11490.  
  11491.  
  11492. <p>Wait, you got the defendants to sign the back of it? Was that part of the-</p>
  11493.  
  11494.  
  11495.  
  11496. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11497.  
  11498.  
  11499.  
  11500. <p>Whoa, really?</p>
  11501.  
  11502.  
  11503.  
  11504. <p>Otto:</p>
  11505.  
  11506.  
  11507.  
  11508. <p>Yeah. It was part of the settlement.</p>
  11509.  
  11510.  
  11511.  
  11512. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11513.  
  11514.  
  11515.  
  11516. <p>That was part of the settlement. I love it.</p>
  11517.  
  11518.  
  11519.  
  11520. <p>Otto:</p>
  11521.  
  11522.  
  11523.  
  11524. <p>Yeah. So, we told them, &#8220;You know those signs that you had on the building? Can you take them down and have all the defendants sign it?&#8221; And then they agreed to it, and we were surprised that they agreed to it. So, I kind of got it up there on the back wall. I don&#8217;t know if you can see it.</p>
  11525.  
  11526.  
  11527.  
  11528. <p>Taya:</p>
  11529.  
  11530.  
  11531.  
  11532. <p>That&#8217;s diabolical. I love that for you.</p>
  11533.  
  11534.  
  11535.  
  11536. <p>Otto:</p>
  11537.  
  11538.  
  11539.  
  11540. <p>I&#8217;m going to [inaudible 01:29:33] with you real quick. Give me a second.</p>
  11541.  
  11542.  
  11543.  
  11544. <p>Taya:</p>
  11545.  
  11546.  
  11547.  
  11548. <p>I love that for you. Yes, please let us see it. I love that.</p>
  11549.  
  11550.  
  11551.  
  11552. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11553.  
  11554.  
  11555.  
  11556. <p>I mean, the thing that&#8217;s amazing, just talking to Battousai, James Freeman and&#8230; Think of all the change that these individuals, just working on their own, no newsrooms, no-</p>
  11557.  
  11558.  
  11559.  
  11560. <p>Otto:</p>
  11561.  
  11562.  
  11563.  
  11564. <p>So this is the sign here. I know if you can see it. Oh,</p>
  11565.  
  11566.  
  11567.  
  11568. <p>Taya:</p>
  11569.  
  11570.  
  11571.  
  11572. <p>That&#8217;s incredible.</p>
  11573.  
  11574.  
  11575.  
  11576. <p>Otto:</p>
  11577.  
  11578.  
  11579.  
  11580. <p>And they signed the back of it, so it was no joke. And then one thing I did find out later on, because I did some open records requests, I think whenever they wrote me the citation for filming when they dismissed it two days later, TML, which is like the insurance for the city, required the officers to take constitutional law.</p>
  11581.  
  11582.  
  11583.  
  11584. <p>Taya:</p>
  11585.  
  11586.  
  11587.  
  11588. <p>That&#8217;s wonderful.</p>
  11589.  
  11590.  
  11591.  
  11592. <p>Otto:</p>
  11593.  
  11594.  
  11595.  
  11596. <p>Yeah. So it was two days after, so they knew the lawsuit was coming.</p>
  11597.  
  11598.  
  11599.  
  11600. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11601.  
  11602.  
  11603.  
  11604. <p>Wow. Which begs the question is why they hadn&#8217;t done that before they became police officers or-</p>
  11605.  
  11606.  
  11607.  
  11608. <p>Taya:</p>
  11609.  
  11610.  
  11611.  
  11612. <p>That&#8217;s an excellent point-</p>
  11613.  
  11614.  
  11615.  
  11616. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11617.  
  11618.  
  11619.  
  11620. <p>Out in the streets.</p>
  11621.  
  11622.  
  11623.  
  11624. <p>Otto:</p>
  11625.  
  11626.  
  11627.  
  11628. <p>It was probably more just like a revisit.</p>
  11629.  
  11630.  
  11631.  
  11632. <p>Taya:</p>
  11633.  
  11634.  
  11635.  
  11636. <p>Maybe a refresher course.</p>
  11637.  
  11638.  
  11639.  
  11640. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11641.  
  11642.  
  11643.  
  11644. <p>Yeah, of course.</p>
  11645.  
  11646.  
  11647.  
  11648. <p>Taya:</p>
  11649.  
  11650.  
  11651.  
  11652. <p>Hopefully.</p>
  11653.  
  11654.  
  11655.  
  11656. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11657.  
  11658.  
  11659.  
  11660. <p>It&#8217;s always good to brush up.</p>
  11661.  
  11662.  
  11663.  
  11664. <p>Taya:</p>
  11665.  
  11666.  
  11667.  
  11668. <p>Except Steven, didn&#8217;t you have a particular experience on what you saw? You knew that was written in a police academy Blackboard, about the Fourth Amendment?</p>
  11669.  
  11670.  
  11671.  
  11672. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11673.  
  11674.  
  11675.  
  11676. <p>Yeah, the Fourth Amendment doesn&#8217;t apply to us. We got a picture from a group of cops called VICD, Violent Impact Crimes Division, and they were doing training retraining on the amendments the fourth, fifth, and sixth. And they wrote on the Blackboard, fourth Amendment does not apply to us. And of course a lot of those guys-</p>
  11677.  
  11678.  
  11679.  
  11680. <p>Taya:</p>
  11681.  
  11682.  
  11683.  
  11684. <p>In the academy, in the academy on the Blackboard.</p>
  11685.  
  11686.  
  11687.  
  11688. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11689.  
  11690.  
  11691.  
  11692. <p>Just to show you how important Battousai work is, a lot of those officers ended up being part of the Gun Trace Task Force, which was a group of 6, 7, 8 officers who robbed residents, stole over time and-</p>
  11693.  
  11694.  
  11695.  
  11696. <p>Taya:</p>
  11697.  
  11698.  
  11699.  
  11700. <p>And dealt drugs in our city.</p>
  11701.  
  11702.  
  11703.  
  11704. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11705.  
  11706.  
  11707.  
  11708. <p>Dealt drugs. Congrats to you because that&#8217;s great to hear because if we can at least teach police officers that their whole occupation relies upon the constitution and those rights are important, that&#8217;s a victory.</p>
  11709.  
  11710.  
  11711.  
  11712. <p>Taya:</p>
  11713.  
  11714.  
  11715.  
  11716. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  11717.  
  11718.  
  11719.  
  11720. <p>Otto:</p>
  11721.  
  11722.  
  11723.  
  11724. <p>I think if people found a real reason why the police are here, I think everybody would blow their lids. And people are like, &#8220;Oh no, that&#8217;s not true.&#8221; But police are here to serve their masters. That&#8217;s pretty much all it is. They&#8217;re there to serve the wealthy and the people in position of power. That&#8217;s their true purpose.</p>
  11725.  
  11726.  
  11727.  
  11728. <p>Taya:</p>
  11729.  
  11730.  
  11731.  
  11732. <p>Yes, well said.</p>
  11733.  
  11734.  
  11735.  
  11736. <p>Otto:</p>
  11737.  
  11738.  
  11739.  
  11740. <p>And we should not forget that.</p>
  11741.  
  11742.  
  11743.  
  11744. <p>Taya:</p>
  11745.  
  11746.  
  11747.  
  11748. <p>And we can never forget that.</p>
  11749.  
  11750.  
  11751.  
  11752. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11753.  
  11754.  
  11755.  
  11756. <p>It&#8217;s an important thing to remember.</p>
  11757.  
  11758.  
  11759.  
  11760. <p>Taya:</p>
  11761.  
  11762.  
  11763.  
  11764. <p>Absolutely. They are the front line to protect the interest of capital. Corporatists, those oligarchs who are corrupting our society and corrupting our government process. They&#8217;re corrupting our democracy. Crony capitalism, I believe it&#8217;s called.</p>
  11765.  
  11766.  
  11767.  
  11768. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11769.  
  11770.  
  11771.  
  11772. <p>Go ahead. You say it, thank you.</p>
  11773.  
  11774.  
  11775.  
  11776. <p>Taya:</p>
  11777.  
  11778.  
  11779.  
  11780. <p>Well, I just wanted to ask, are there any new ongoing fights with the police departments or is there anything that you want to share with us? Any new legal front that you&#8217;re ready to share? I know sometimes you can&#8217;t always share something that you&#8217;re working on, and if you can&#8217;t, I totally understand that. But is there anything else coming up?</p>
  11781.  
  11782.  
  11783.  
  11784. <p>Otto:</p>
  11785.  
  11786.  
  11787.  
  11788. <p>Oh, I&#8217;ll say, so I had a couple of people respond to, email me, saying, &#8220;Hey, we didn&#8217;t know you were the guy for Turner V Driver.&#8221; And I was like, &#8220;Yeah, I guess it&#8217;s been some time. I haven&#8217;t been really active.&#8221; And then I had a couple of people from, Martha [inaudible 01:32:52] was actually one of them. He said, &#8220;I think it&#8217;s time for you to return to Fort Worth.&#8221; And I said, &#8220;Why do you say that?&#8221; And they said, &#8220;Oh, the Turner V. Driver case. They&#8217;re pretty much saying that, oh, that means nothing. And yeah, that white guy is not going to come back here anymore.&#8221; And I said, &#8220;Wait a minute, white guy?&#8221;</p>
  11789.  
  11790.  
  11791.  
  11792. <p>&#8220;Oh yeah, yeah. I didn&#8217;t tell you? They think the guy from Turner V. Driver was white.&#8221; And I was like, &#8220;Really?&#8221; I said, &#8220;Okay, yeah, I guess I already got a good disguise, so I&#8217;m going to go back up there.&#8221;</p>
  11793.  
  11794.  
  11795.  
  11796. <p>Taya:</p>
  11797.  
  11798.  
  11799.  
  11800. <p>You can be totally undercover now. They&#8217;re going to be looking for the wrong guy. That&#8217;s some bad police work.</p>
  11801.  
  11802.  
  11803.  
  11804. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11805.  
  11806.  
  11807.  
  11808. <p>That&#8217;s some very bad detective work, absolutely.</p>
  11809.  
  11810.  
  11811.  
  11812. <p>Taya:</p>
  11813.  
  11814.  
  11815.  
  11816. <p>That&#8217;s pretty sloppy.</p>
  11817.  
  11818.  
  11819.  
  11820. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11821.  
  11822.  
  11823.  
  11824. <p>We really appreciate you coming on the show for our fifth anniversary. So kind of you to take the time to join us.</p>
  11825.  
  11826.  
  11827.  
  11828. <p>Taya:</p>
  11829.  
  11830.  
  11831.  
  11832. <p>I really, really, really wish I could keep you for longer, but I promised everyone I would do five questions to make sure that I don&#8217;t trap our friends in the studio here all night. But would you please agree to come back and spend some more time with us? I think we just need to give the Battousai his whole hour. I mean, I think that&#8217;s what has to happen. You just need your own hour. Would you be able to come back?</p>
  11833.  
  11834.  
  11835.  
  11836. <p>Otto:</p>
  11837.  
  11838.  
  11839.  
  11840. <p>Oh, I got a lot of fun stories for you. Yes, I&#8217;ll come back. But I got a lot of fun stories for you guys.</p>
  11841.  
  11842.  
  11843.  
  11844. <p>Taya:</p>
  11845.  
  11846.  
  11847.  
  11848. <p>Okay. All right. I&#8217;m looking forward to them. Thank you so much for joining us and there is a lot of love in the chat for you, as I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll see.</p>
  11849.  
  11850.  
  11851.  
  11852. <p>Otto:</p>
  11853.  
  11854.  
  11855.  
  11856. <p>Thank you for having me and happy anniversary.</p>
  11857.  
  11858.  
  11859.  
  11860. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11861.  
  11862.  
  11863.  
  11864. <p>Thank you, Battousai. We really appreciate it.</p>
  11865.  
  11866.  
  11867.  
  11868. <p>Taya:</p>
  11869.  
  11870.  
  11871.  
  11872. <p>Thank you so much. It&#8217;s so great to see him.</p>
  11873.  
  11874.  
  11875.  
  11876. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11877.  
  11878.  
  11879.  
  11880. <p>It&#8217;s amazing. I was just saying, you think about all the changes that have been effectuated by the people that we&#8217;ve had in our show who had done this all on their own initiative. It gives you hope.</p>
  11881.  
  11882.  
  11883.  
  11884. <p>Taya:</p>
  11885.  
  11886.  
  11887.  
  11888. <p>It really does.</p>
  11889.  
  11890.  
  11891.  
  11892. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11893.  
  11894.  
  11895.  
  11896. <p>It gives you hope in democracy.</p>
  11897.  
  11898.  
  11899.  
  11900. <p>Taya:</p>
  11901.  
  11902.  
  11903.  
  11904. <p>It really does.</p>
  11905.  
  11906.  
  11907.  
  11908. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11909.  
  11910.  
  11911.  
  11912. <p>I know the internet is fueled by cynicism, but this is not a place for it, because if there are individuals willing to go out there and risk their neck and get arrested or just confront cops or create videos or tell people&#8217;s stories just on their own with no prompting, I can&#8217;t be a cynic all the time.</p>
  11913.  
  11914.  
  11915.  
  11916. <p>Taya:</p>
  11917.  
  11918.  
  11919.  
  11920. <p>All the time.</p>
  11921.  
  11922.  
  11923.  
  11924. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11925.  
  11926.  
  11927.  
  11928. <p>All the time. This is nice. I feel it&#8217;s pretty nice.</p>
  11929.  
  11930.  
  11931.  
  11932. <p>Taya:</p>
  11933.  
  11934.  
  11935.  
  11936. <p>You feel warm and fuzzy, aren&#8217;t you?</p>
  11937.  
  11938.  
  11939.  
  11940. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11941.  
  11942.  
  11943.  
  11944. <p>It&#8217;s a great gift for our fifth anniversary to really talk to people who have made a difference. You can make a difference.</p>
  11945.  
  11946.  
  11947.  
  11948. <p>Taya:</p>
  11949.  
  11950.  
  11951.  
  11952. <p>Absolutely. Because I have to admit, when I first started working with Steven, and he was a bit cynical and understandably because he had been a lone voice.</p>
  11953.  
  11954.  
  11955.  
  11956. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11957.  
  11958.  
  11959.  
  11960. <p>Oh, I cynical?</p>
  11961.  
  11962.  
  11963.  
  11964. <p>Taya:</p>
  11965.  
  11966.  
  11967.  
  11968. <p>He was a lone voice pushing back against police misconduct that he saw, violations of civil rights of community members, deaths that were being under investigated and literally covered up. He saw this, he listened to the community and reported on it, and he received retaliation from the police department. He had people from the medical examiner&#8217;s office call to try to get him fired. As a matter of fact, they tried to get me fired too, which is sort of ironic because at the time we were doing a podcast that we weren&#8217;t getting paid for. But just all these different forms of retaliation that you experienced. So you were getting a little cynical. So to see people do this, I really think makes a difference to you.</p>
  11969.  
  11970.  
  11971.  
  11972. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11973.  
  11974.  
  11975.  
  11976. <p>After I got laid off from my newspaper, I worked for a couple years on my own website, and then I got a job at a TV station. The first thing that happened was a police spokesman sent an email to my boss saying, &#8220;Steven Janis is a jerk, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Fire him.&#8221; That man actually-</p>
  11977.  
  11978.  
  11979.  
  11980. <p>Taya:</p>
  11981.  
  11982.  
  11983.  
  11984. <p>And a cop hitter, and a cop-hater-</p>
  11985.  
  11986.  
  11987.  
  11988. <p>Stephen:</p>
  11989.  
  11990.  
  11991.  
  11992. <p>That man right now is actually the head spokesman for the Secret Service. So yeah, Anthony Guglielmi, I think his name is, yeah. And so he decided that the best thing to do was take a reporter who had lost his job when his newspaper closed, because he had provided honest coverage of the police department-</p>
  11993.  
  11994.  
  11995.  
  11996. <p>Taya:</p>
  11997.  
  11998.  
  11999.  
  12000. <p>Exactly, all of it is honest-</p>
  12001.  
  12002.  
  12003.  
  12004. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12005.  
  12006.  
  12007.  
  12008. <p>And try to take away his job and his health benefits, because I hadn&#8217;t seen a doctor in three and a half years. So really wonderful people. I really have a lot to say about their character.</p>
  12009.  
  12010.  
  12011.  
  12012. <p>Taya:</p>
  12013.  
  12014.  
  12015.  
  12016. <p>You have some not-friends in some very high places.</p>
  12017.  
  12018.  
  12019.  
  12020. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12021.  
  12022.  
  12023.  
  12024. <p>But think about it. Think about, this was in 2011. This is four years before Freddie Gray and five years before. So was I right? Or was I wrong?</p>
  12025.  
  12026.  
  12027.  
  12028. <p>Taya:</p>
  12029.  
  12030.  
  12031.  
  12032. <p>You were right.</p>
  12033.  
  12034.  
  12035.  
  12036. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12037.  
  12038.  
  12039.  
  12040. <p>I was right about the Baltimore Freaking Police Department.</p>
  12041.  
  12042.  
  12043.  
  12044. <p>Taya:</p>
  12045.  
  12046.  
  12047.  
  12048. <p>Yes, you were.</p>
  12049.  
  12050.  
  12051.  
  12052. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12053.  
  12054.  
  12055.  
  12056. <p>But they tried to take my freaking job.</p>
  12057.  
  12058.  
  12059.  
  12060. <p>Taya:</p>
  12061.  
  12062.  
  12063.  
  12064. <p>That is absolutely right.</p>
  12065.  
  12066.  
  12067.  
  12068. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12069.  
  12070.  
  12071.  
  12072. <p>I&#8217;m sorry.</p>
  12073.  
  12074.  
  12075.  
  12076. <p>Taya:</p>
  12077.  
  12078.  
  12079.  
  12080. <p>And that&#8217;s why I thought you should share that. So when he says it affects him and makes him feel hopeful, this man had all the reason in the world for cynicism. So it means something when he says that.</p>
  12081.  
  12082.  
  12083.  
  12084. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12085.  
  12086.  
  12087.  
  12088. <p>Well, I&#8217;m very thankful that there are people who are willing to go out there and do this difficult work and all on their own. And it just gives me a lot. It makes me feel good. But anyway, that&#8217;s what I&#8217;ll say, but we&#8217;ve got to get to the next guest.</p>
  12089.  
  12090.  
  12091.  
  12092. <p>Taya:</p>
  12093.  
  12094.  
  12095.  
  12096. <p>Okay. Yes. So I&#8217;m just, thank you for letting me have you share that. So, our last guests are actually kind of a duo, and they have been unrelenting in their coverage of some of the most vexing police departments in the country. They&#8217;re a special team that have been involved in high profile cases that have led to a major settlement with the Los Angeles County Sheriffs, all due to the footage caught on their cameras. They also include one of the, so-called OGs of Cop watching, Tom Zebra. Tom&#8217;s uncompromising coverage of cops in LA has made him a legend in the world of YouTube activists. Also, the fact, I think he&#8217;s been doing it for almost 20 years. I think some of his early cop watches are actually on VHS. That&#8217;s how long Tom Zebra has been doing this. And they also made one of my favorite clips ever where they did a bit of an imitation of a show that I&#8217;m kind of fond of. Maybe we could just take a little peek at it. A little peek.</p>
  12097.  
  12098.  
  12099.  
  12100. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12101.  
  12102.  
  12103.  
  12104. <p>Okay.</p>
  12105.  
  12106.  
  12107.  
  12108. <p>Taya:</p>
  12109.  
  12110.  
  12111.  
  12112. <p>Good to know.</p>
  12113.  
  12114.  
  12115.  
  12116. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12117.  
  12118.  
  12119.  
  12120. <p>Thank you.</p>
  12121.  
  12122.  
  12123.  
  12124. <p>Taya:</p>
  12125.  
  12126.  
  12127.  
  12128. <p>I&#8217;ll tell people that.</p>
  12129.  
  12130.  
  12131.  
  12132. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12133.  
  12134.  
  12135.  
  12136. <p>Okay. I got to say something. Oh, Taya, just let me say something, that is good reporting because knowing that the Coke price was low or a good price, that&#8217;s the kind of detail, that separates the regular reporter from the top-notch investigative reporter.</p>
  12137.  
  12138.  
  12139.  
  12140. <p>Taya:</p>
  12141.  
  12142.  
  12143.  
  12144. <p>That lets you know that reporter hit the streets. And that&#8217;s what we respect around here.</p>
  12145.  
  12146.  
  12147.  
  12148. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12149.  
  12150.  
  12151.  
  12152. <p>I mean, I&#8217;ve been doing Stand-ups for five years, but Tom just knocked me right out of the park.</p>
  12153.  
  12154.  
  12155.  
  12156. <p>Taya:</p>
  12157.  
  12158.  
  12159.  
  12160. <p>He did. He knocked you out of the box on that one.</p>
  12161.  
  12162.  
  12163.  
  12164. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12165.  
  12166.  
  12167.  
  12168. <p>I&#8217;ve never had that kind of detail in my reporting, mad respect.</p>
  12169.  
  12170.  
  12171.  
  12172. <p>Taya:</p>
  12173.  
  12174.  
  12175.  
  12176. <p>Also, his sweatshirt was cool.</p>
  12177.  
  12178.  
  12179.  
  12180. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12181.  
  12182.  
  12183.  
  12184. <p>Mad respect for that man.</p>
  12185.  
  12186.  
  12187.  
  12188. <p>Taya:</p>
  12189.  
  12190.  
  12191.  
  12192. <p>And I liked Laura&#8217;s Bookshelf. And before we get started, that sounds really familiar. I&#8217;m not sure why it sounds so familiar.</p>
  12193.  
  12194.  
  12195.  
  12196. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12197.  
  12198.  
  12199.  
  12200. <p>I told Laura she needed more books though.</p>
  12201.  
  12202.  
  12203.  
  12204. <p>Taya:</p>
  12205.  
  12206.  
  12207.  
  12208. <p>She needed more books on her shelf. She even had the glasses. It was so awesome. Okay, just for any folks that are here, they did a version of the show we do. And we thought it was basically the best thing that we&#8217;ve ever seen.</p>
  12209.  
  12210.  
  12211.  
  12212. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12213.  
  12214.  
  12215.  
  12216. <p>We did.</p>
  12217.  
  12218.  
  12219.  
  12220. <p>Taya:</p>
  12221.  
  12222.  
  12223.  
  12224. <p>So you should go check it out on our channel, because it&#8217;s kind of great. And it also has really good reporting in it. So, I have to welcome Tom Zebra and Laura Sharp.</p>
  12225.  
  12226.  
  12227.  
  12228. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12229.  
  12230.  
  12231.  
  12232. <p>Hello.</p>
  12233.  
  12234.  
  12235.  
  12236. <p>Taya:</p>
  12237.  
  12238.  
  12239.  
  12240. <p>Thank you so much for joining us.</p>
  12241.  
  12242.  
  12243.  
  12244. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12245.  
  12246.  
  12247.  
  12248. <p>Thank you for being here.</p>
  12249.  
  12250.  
  12251.  
  12252. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12253.  
  12254.  
  12255.  
  12256. <p>Bye. That&#8217;s, [inaudible 01:40:20].</p>
  12257.  
  12258.  
  12259.  
  12260. <p>Taya:</p>
  12261.  
  12262.  
  12263.  
  12264. <p>We appreciate you.</p>
  12265.  
  12266.  
  12267.  
  12268. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12269.  
  12270.  
  12271.  
  12272. <p>My four books. It was like one of those last things. I&#8217;m like, &#8220;Oh, I need books.&#8221;</p>
  12273.  
  12274.  
  12275.  
  12276. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12277.  
  12278.  
  12279.  
  12280. <p>Tay and I have plenty of books. If you need something, we can ship them out to you.</p>
  12281.  
  12282.  
  12283.  
  12284. <p>Taya:</p>
  12285.  
  12286.  
  12287.  
  12288. <p>That&#8217;s right, we can ship them out to you.</p>
  12289.  
  12290.  
  12291.  
  12292. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12293.  
  12294.  
  12295.  
  12296. <p>No, actually I have a lot. And if you notice, I don&#8217;t know what the&#8230; I don&#8217;t know. It was so random. I was like, &#8220;Oh no.&#8221; I just grabbed Egyptian books or something. I do have books.</p>
  12297.  
  12298.  
  12299.  
  12300. <p>Taya:</p>
  12301.  
  12302.  
  12303.  
  12304. <p>We just wanted to also say that Thomas has been having a little bit of an issue with his video. So at some point we might have the technical difficulty of just having his audio instead of his visual. So just to let you know, we&#8217;re not doing it on purpose. It&#8217;s just one of those technicalities.</p>
  12305.  
  12306.  
  12307.  
  12308. <p>So, to both of you, first, I just wanted to give you guys both a chance to comment on Eric&#8217;s recent indictment. You were there when we were out in Colorado spending time with Eric, checking in-</p>
  12309.  
  12310.  
  12311.  
  12312. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12313.  
  12314.  
  12315.  
  12316. <p>Prior to sentencing-</p>
  12317.  
  12318.  
  12319.  
  12320. <p>Taya:</p>
  12321.  
  12322.  
  12323.  
  12324. <p>To what was happening. Excuse me, we were there prior to sentencing. So we certainly know that you Eric well. I just thought maybe you&#8217;d like to have a chance to comment on his recent indictment and any concerns that you might have about it. And either one of you can take this question first.</p>
  12325.  
  12326.  
  12327.  
  12328. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12329.  
  12330.  
  12331.  
  12332. <p>I&#8217;ll go, hopefully you can hear me okay.</p>
  12333.  
  12334.  
  12335.  
  12336. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12337.  
  12338.  
  12339.  
  12340. <p>We can.</p>
  12341.  
  12342.  
  12343.  
  12344. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12345.  
  12346.  
  12347.  
  12348. <p>Everything you guys said is true. It&#8217;s not surprising in the least bit that they&#8217;ve retaliated against him and they&#8217;re going to do everything they can to keep him in jail. And if you think about it, I think that&#8217;s probably why Eric Brandt is the person he is anyways. It&#8217;s because of how unfair they are and the fact that that&#8217;s what they do every chance they get. They retaliate against people they don&#8217;t like instead of doing their job. So it&#8217;s not surprising to me one bit, but hopefully that&#8217;s going to light a fire under his butt. And when he gets out here, hopefully he&#8217;ll go right back to cop watching.</p>
  12349.  
  12350.  
  12351.  
  12352. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12353.  
  12354.  
  12355.  
  12356. <p>I hope so too.</p>
  12357.  
  12358.  
  12359.  
  12360. <p>Taya:</p>
  12361.  
  12362.  
  12363.  
  12364. <p>I hope so too. But I have a feeling he may retire to a quiet life-</p>
  12365.  
  12366.  
  12367.  
  12368. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12369.  
  12370.  
  12371.  
  12372. <p>He might be taking a break.</p>
  12373.  
  12374.  
  12375.  
  12376. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12377.  
  12378.  
  12379.  
  12380. <p>I think, yeah&#8230; I think Eric is ready to retire.</p>
  12381.  
  12382.  
  12383.  
  12384. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12385.  
  12386.  
  12387.  
  12388. <p>For his own mental health.</p>
  12389.  
  12390.  
  12391.  
  12392. <p>Taya:</p>
  12393.  
  12394.  
  12395.  
  12396. <p>Laura, did you want to comment on Eric&#8217;s recent indictment?</p>
  12397.  
  12398.  
  12399.  
  12400. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12401.  
  12402.  
  12403.  
  12404. <p>He definitely covered everything. We talked about it at length and I mean, honestly, it just breaks my heart. Just there&#8217;s a lot that you risk when you do what we do. I mean, especially him. I&#8217;m almost at loss of words, just how that turned out.</p>
  12405.  
  12406.  
  12407.  
  12408. <p>Taya:</p>
  12409.  
  12410.  
  12411.  
  12412. <p>No, understandably.</p>
  12413.  
  12414.  
  12415.  
  12416. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12417.  
  12418.  
  12419.  
  12420. <p>If I can add, I&#8217;d like to say something about the Judge Morris Hoffman.</p>
  12421.  
  12422.  
  12423.  
  12424. <p>Taya:</p>
  12425.  
  12426.  
  12427.  
  12428. <p>Please do.</p>
  12429.  
  12430.  
  12431.  
  12432. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12433.  
  12434.  
  12435.  
  12436. <p>I know a lot of people have criticism about him. But one of the interviews I watched, he was explaining how if you are in the shoes of the defendant, if anybody else would&#8217;ve done what they would&#8217;ve done, then that&#8217;s not a crime at all. And I don&#8217;t think very many of us have been in the shoes of Eric Brandt, where he spent so much time in jail as an innocent person. And I mean, he&#8217;s got how many laws are in his name? He set precedent repeatedly. So, in the overall scheme of things, he&#8217;s the one that is righteous. And the judge said elsewhere, if any other person would&#8217;ve done those things, like in Eric Brandt&#8217;s shoes, and I think anyone else would have, I can&#8217;t imagine being locked up for so long as an innocent person.</p>
  12437.  
  12438.  
  12439.  
  12440. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12441.  
  12442.  
  12443.  
  12444. <p>I mean, Eric-</p>
  12445.  
  12446.  
  12447.  
  12448. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12449.  
  12450.  
  12451.  
  12452. <p>At the very least, under those circumstances, of course, you&#8217;re going to say something that isn&#8217;t nice about the judge.</p>
  12453.  
  12454.  
  12455.  
  12456. <p>Taya:</p>
  12457.  
  12458.  
  12459.  
  12460. <p>Yeah, absolutely.</p>
  12461.  
  12462.  
  12463.  
  12464. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12465.  
  12466.  
  12467.  
  12468. <p>Yeah, and it&#8217;s true. Eric had set precedent in the 10th Circuit for filming police.</p>
  12469.  
  12470.  
  12471.  
  12472. <p>Taya:</p>
  12473.  
  12474.  
  12475.  
  12476. <p>Yes. With Liberty Freak, Irizarry.</p>
  12477.  
  12478.  
  12479.  
  12480. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12481.  
  12482.  
  12483.  
  12484. <p>Liberty Freak Irizarry. So that is very true. Among other things that he&#8217;s done-</p>
  12485.  
  12486.  
  12487.  
  12488. <p>Taya:</p>
  12489.  
  12490.  
  12491.  
  12492. <p>Among other things-</p>
  12493.  
  12494.  
  12495.  
  12496. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12497.  
  12498.  
  12499.  
  12500. <p>There&#8217;s many other lawsuits he won.</p>
  12501.  
  12502.  
  12503.  
  12504. <p>Taya:</p>
  12505.  
  12506.  
  12507.  
  12508. <p>I just meant, right&#8230; Also, there was a lawsuit that he participated in that resulted in the Englewood Police Department receiving body cameras about 18 months before any of the other police departments as well as guaranteeing them, certain retraining as well, certain constitutional retraining, which is good for everybody. I even want constitutional training.</p>
  12509.  
  12510.  
  12511.  
  12512. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12513.  
  12514.  
  12515.  
  12516. <p>So Laura, let me ask you, what&#8217;s it like out on the streets now? How are cops behaving? Are they responding to your work? How are things going up? How&#8217;s cop watching?</p>
  12517.  
  12518.  
  12519.  
  12520. <p>Taya:</p>
  12521.  
  12522.  
  12523.  
  12524. <p>Are they like, &#8220;Oh no, it&#8217;s Laura Sharp.&#8221;</p>
  12525.  
  12526.  
  12527.  
  12528. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12529.  
  12530.  
  12531.  
  12532. <p>They&#8217;re running. They run from the camera.</p>
  12533.  
  12534.  
  12535.  
  12536. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12537.  
  12538.  
  12539.  
  12540. <p>They run from the camera?</p>
  12541.  
  12542.  
  12543.  
  12544. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12545.  
  12546.  
  12547.  
  12548. <p>We go out. Yeah, no, no&#8230; We go out quite a bit and as soon as we get out or walk up, it&#8217;s like suddenly it&#8217;s over. It&#8217;s like, wow.</p>
  12549.  
  12550.  
  12551.  
  12552. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12553.  
  12554.  
  12555.  
  12556. <p>Really?</p>
  12557.  
  12558.  
  12559.  
  12560. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12561.  
  12562.  
  12563.  
  12564. <p>Yeah, no, it&#8217;s almost annoying. It&#8217;s like, &#8220;Come on guys, please.&#8221;</p>
  12565.  
  12566.  
  12567.  
  12568. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12569.  
  12570.  
  12571.  
  12572. <p>So they&#8217;re ruining your videos. You can&#8217;t even make a video.</p>
  12573.  
  12574.  
  12575.  
  12576. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12577.  
  12578.  
  12579.  
  12580. <p>We&#8217;re having to chase them to the department, their little substation or the&#8230; Come on please.</p>
  12581.  
  12582.  
  12583.  
  12584. <p>Taya:</p>
  12585.  
  12586.  
  12587.  
  12588. <p>That&#8217;s so funny.</p>
  12589.  
  12590.  
  12591.  
  12592. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12593.  
  12594.  
  12595.  
  12596. <p>I mean, they&#8217;re basically [inaudible 01:45:24].</p>
  12597.  
  12598.  
  12599.  
  12600. <p>Taya:</p>
  12601.  
  12602.  
  12603.  
  12604. <p>But honestly though, in a way that&#8217;s great because what you&#8217;re doing in that process is there&#8217;s someone who might&#8217;ve been harassed, who might&#8217;ve been having an unconstitutional arrest or having their rights violated, and the officers decide, you know what? It&#8217;s not worth it.</p>
  12605.  
  12606.  
  12607.  
  12608. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12609.  
  12610.  
  12611.  
  12612. <p>They&#8217;re still doing it.</p>
  12613.  
  12614.  
  12615.  
  12616. <p>Taya:</p>
  12617.  
  12618.  
  12619.  
  12620. <p>They&#8217;re still doing it?</p>
  12621.  
  12622.  
  12623.  
  12624. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12625.  
  12626.  
  12627.  
  12628. <p>They&#8217;re still doing it. It&#8217;s just a matter of&#8230; It&#8217;s just a matter of there&#8217;s a new crop. I kind of see it as they obviously&#8230; I mean, they have so many departments like Sheriff for instance, and they have new rookies coming in. And at certain points there&#8217;s, right now I feel like there&#8217;s a brand new one for the last year that we haven&#8217;t figured out their places yet. Their path, the way that they get to each location kind of a thing. We don&#8217;t got that down the way we had prior. We could find the same guys in the same places mostly, but not anymore. And a lot of them, they&#8217;ve made a name for themselves. Sabatine has had a whole thing because I think he threatened the rapper. He said he was going to put one in his chest just like a whole&#8230; And I miss them, I don&#8217;t know. It was a little entertaining. Now these guys literally just don&#8217;t say anything. I&#8217;m like, this is no good.</p>
  12629.  
  12630.  
  12631.  
  12632. <p>Taya:</p>
  12633.  
  12634.  
  12635.  
  12636. <p>Let me ask you something. Because there&#8217;s a case that you worked on that really stood out to me and was absolutely life-changing. And this was the case of Christopher Bailey. You recorded some of the&#8230; I mean, I&#8217;ve witnessed a lot of police brutality, but this was truly terrible. And you were there live on the scene. And can you just talk a little bit about how your video footage helped him and the lawsuit that followed, and maybe even some information about the officers or detectives who were involved, if you don&#8217;t mind?</p>
  12637.  
  12638.  
  12639.  
  12640. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12641.  
  12642.  
  12643.  
  12644. <p>Okay. So I mean, to make a really long story short, I mean, we did show up in the aftermath. We were directly after it. I mean, they must have just done their last strike on him or something. And initially when we arrived, I didn&#8217;t see him. And we did hear a deputy involved in a fight. So I was aware, I&#8217;ve come to these scenes before and maybe they have, they&#8217;re a little roughed up and they&#8217;re getting in an ambulance or something. But when we first got there, we didn&#8217;t see him. We could kind of see where the deputies were around. And then we heard him and he said, &#8220;I want to live.&#8221; And it was like, &#8220;Wait a minute. Oh, they have him on the ground.&#8221; And it was just this whole, it was in slow motion after that where it was like, we recognize all these, most of the deputies, and at this point, we know them all now.</p>
  12645.  
  12646.  
  12647.  
  12648. <p>But it was almost like, I don&#8217;t know. I could say I was shocked. I was not expecting when they sat him up and the condition of his face, it was horrific. And it really just could not bother, just even the most critical person of what we do. It was horrific. And so for almost a year to the day, I did not know this man&#8217;s name. And I started to resolve to the fact that I probably never would, because a lot of the times we don&#8217;t see, I mean most of the time, sorry, we don&#8217;t see these individuals again after they have their contact with law enforcement.</p>
  12649.  
  12650.  
  12651.  
  12652. <p>So I had almost become like, I had to accept that. And his lawyer made a comment on the video. I mean, she quickly took it off. But just that contact, and I have to say what we saw was pretty bad. But hearing it in detail, to the extent that what they did to him, it was almost, I don&#8217;t want to say it was worse, but it was just as horrific to hear the details of how many times they struck him or hit him and kneed him. And I mean, his injuries were his eye socket or his eyeball was dislocated from his orbital bone. They fractured his orbital bone. I mean, what we saw was just what looked like, he didn&#8217;t even look human. It was just something that I kept saying in the video. And they played a news clip, and you can hear me say, &#8220;He doesn&#8217;t even look human.&#8221; I mean he didn&#8217;t. And I think they referred to me as a bystander with a cell phone or something. And I was probably offended.</p>
  12653.  
  12654.  
  12655.  
  12656. <p>But Daniel and I just, Daniel has, we both have our own way of responding to these situations. And he had currently had a situation with a deputy that he was kind of asking about. But everything that we thought in the moment was very true. Daniel was calling it, before we knew the facts. And it sucks to be right. And I mean, we met him over Zoom. He is still, to this day, afraid to set foot in California. He took off to Texas as soon as he was medically able, because he was hospitalized for quite a bit after that. He still was, he&#8217;s still getting surgeries because he&#8217;s, he&#8217;s basically blind in his left eye. There was a clip from Eric&#8217;s trial where the judge said, &#8220;Who in the world thinks that that&#8217;s okay?&#8221; And literally, I could not have put that perfectly in this instance. But that one, it didn&#8217;t feel, that wasn&#8217;t even with Eric, it didn&#8217;t fit, but with this, it&#8217;s like, who in the world thinks this is okay? It&#8217;s just not.</p>
  12657.  
  12658.  
  12659.  
  12660. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12661.  
  12662.  
  12663.  
  12664. <p>Well, thank you for sharing that.</p>
  12665.  
  12666.  
  12667.  
  12668. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12669.  
  12670.  
  12671.  
  12672. <p>I don&#8217;t know, you want to add something?</p>
  12673.  
  12674.  
  12675.  
  12676. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12677.  
  12678.  
  12679.  
  12680. <p>And I wanted to ask Tom, not just about this situation, but Tom, you&#8217;ve been out on the streets for 20 years. How have things changed for you and with your relationship? Have police changed at all in the 20 years you&#8217;ve been doing this? I&#8217;m just kind of curious.</p>
  12681.  
  12682.  
  12683.  
  12684. <p>Taya:</p>
  12685.  
  12686.  
  12687.  
  12688. <p>Good question.</p>
  12689.  
  12690.  
  12691.  
  12692. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12693.  
  12694.  
  12695.  
  12696. <p>I&#8217;m going to say since I started having more people helping me, like Laura joined me, Jody Kat joined me. There was a few of us in the same area that I was working regularly. And as far as how things changed, the police don&#8217;t even come out of the station anymore. Like the Lawndale sheriffs, any of the areas, those productive feeding grounds, if it was like fishing, those were the areas that I would go because there was plenty of police instances to record.</p>
  12697.  
  12698.  
  12699.  
  12700. <p>Well, now I could drive through these areas every night all night long, and you won&#8217;t find a cop unless they&#8217;re responding to a call. They stay inside the station, they respond to a call and they go straight back to the station.</p>
  12701.  
  12702.  
  12703.  
  12704. <p>I don&#8217;t know how many millions people spent to put these police on the street, but for free, I come back off the street and put them in the station with the help of my associates. And to be honest, if anything, the crime rate has probably gone down because it seems to me like the most serious crimes are committed by the police, at least the ones that I see.</p>
  12705.  
  12706.  
  12707.  
  12708. <p>Taya:</p>
  12709.  
  12710.  
  12711.  
  12712. <p>Wow.</p>
  12713.  
  12714.  
  12715.  
  12716. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12717.  
  12718.  
  12719.  
  12720. <p>Well, yeah, it&#8217;s true. The crime has gone down over the past year from the pandemic highs. And that has been amid a police officer shortage.</p>
  12721.  
  12722.  
  12723.  
  12724. <p>Taya:</p>
  12725.  
  12726.  
  12727.  
  12728. <p>Exactly&#8230; Exactly.</p>
  12729.  
  12730.  
  12731.  
  12732. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12733.  
  12734.  
  12735.  
  12736. <p>Difficult to explain when you say the police are the key to public safety. But currently right now we have a really record drop in violent crime and also record low employment in many police departments, including ours in Baltimore, where we&#8217;ve had a 20% drop in homicides and we&#8217;re pretty much record low staffing. So really difficult conundrum for police partisans who want to say&#8230;</p>
  12737.  
  12738.  
  12739.  
  12740. <p>Taya:</p>
  12741.  
  12742.  
  12743.  
  12744. <p>It&#8217;s interesting you should say that, Steven, because it&#8217;s almost as if you two are drawing the conclusion that policing doesn&#8217;t necessarily stop crime, that&#8217;s a cleanup crew. By any chance, are you familiar with a book called You Can&#8217;t Stop Murder? Are you familiar with that book?</p>
  12745.  
  12746.  
  12747.  
  12748. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12749.  
  12750.  
  12751.  
  12752. <p>Yes, I wrote that book. I wrote that book.</p>
  12753.  
  12754.  
  12755.  
  12756. <p>Taya:</p>
  12757.  
  12758.  
  12759.  
  12760. <p>Yes, that&#8217;s right. And you actually&#8230; It&#8217;s interesting&#8230;</p>
  12761.  
  12762.  
  12763.  
  12764. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12765.  
  12766.  
  12767.  
  12768. <p>That was the thesis of the book, that proactive policing does not reduce crime and it only causes more, as to Tom&#8217;s point, causes more problems than it solves. And that is, I think borne out in Baltimore and I think in Los Angeles too as well, because as Tom and Laura were covering it, there was that report by the ACLU about the Los Angeles County Sheriff, and it was insane what they concluded. You guys remember that report, right?</p>
  12769.  
  12770.  
  12771.  
  12772. <p>Taya:</p>
  12773.  
  12774.  
  12775.  
  12776. <p>Incredible.</p>
  12777.  
  12778.  
  12779.  
  12780. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  12781.  
  12782.  
  12783.  
  12784. <p>Yeah, there was actually the investigation that they had put out is what I sent my video of Christopher Bailey. I sent my video in with several others, and that&#8217;s what I think the lawyer said that the district attorney said that she, that&#8217;s how she found out or something for their investigation.</p>
  12785.  
  12786.  
  12787.  
  12788. <p>Taya:</p>
  12789.  
  12790.  
  12791.  
  12792. <p>Let me just respond to MSTAR Media.</p>
  12793.  
  12794.  
  12795.  
  12796. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12797.  
  12798.  
  12799.  
  12800. <p>Oh, I think-</p>
  12801.  
  12802.  
  12803.  
  12804. <p>Taya:</p>
  12805.  
  12806.  
  12807.  
  12808. <p>Oh, I&#8217;m sorry, Tom, go ahead. I don&#8217;t want to interrupt you.</p>
  12809.  
  12810.  
  12811.  
  12812. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12813.  
  12814.  
  12815.  
  12816. <p>I think if I&#8217;m correct, you guys were talking about the investigation where like 90% of their time is spent on traffic stops, right? Is that what you&#8217;re referring to?</p>
  12817.  
  12818.  
  12819.  
  12820. <p>Taya:</p>
  12821.  
  12822.  
  12823.  
  12824. <p>Yes.</p>
  12825.  
  12826.  
  12827.  
  12828. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12829.  
  12830.  
  12831.  
  12832. <p>Yes.</p>
  12833.  
  12834.  
  12835.  
  12836. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  12837.  
  12838.  
  12839.  
  12840. <p>And our videos not only prove exactly that, but probably 90% of those traffic stops are fake traffic stops. They&#8217;re profiling where the person did nothing wrong, and at the end of the search, the police can&#8217;t even come up with the reason why they made that stop in the first place. And if you take that all into consideration, we&#8217;re wasting $4 billion to be pulled over for no reason. And I&#8217;ll let you get back to what you were, I just want to make that point.</p>
  12841.  
  12842.  
  12843.  
  12844. <p>Taya:</p>
  12845.  
  12846.  
  12847.  
  12848. <p>No, Tom, I&#8217;m so glad you&#8217;re making that point.</p>
  12849.  
  12850.  
  12851.  
  12852. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12853.  
  12854.  
  12855.  
  12856. <p>No, it&#8217;s a good point. Thank you for making that point.</p>
  12857.  
  12858.  
  12859.  
  12860. <p>Taya:</p>
  12861.  
  12862.  
  12863.  
  12864. <p>It&#8217;s really important. No, I just wanted to mention to MSTAR Media, and I really appreciate you bringing it up. She said, what are we getting our stats from about crime going down? Just in my case-</p>
  12865.  
  12866.  
  12867.  
  12868. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12869.  
  12870.  
  12871.  
  12872. <p>Well, the New York Times, FBI UCR.</p>
  12873.  
  12874.  
  12875.  
  12876. <p>Taya:</p>
  12877.  
  12878.  
  12879.  
  12880. <p>Well, just very specifically, the Uniform Crime Report is where various police agencies send in their data. Unfortunately, not all the police agencies do, but that&#8217;s where they&#8217;re supposed to send in their data about whether homicide, murders, et cetera, carjackings, theft, all the different varieties of crime. Something that we saw in particular in our city, Baltimore, is that although carjackings are up quite a bit, one of the things that we&#8217;re most concerned about is homicide in our city and shootings. And very fortunately this year, we&#8217;ve seen a precipitous drop despite the fact that we&#8217;re, what, maybe like 600 police officers short?</p>
  12881.  
  12882.  
  12883.  
  12884. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12885.  
  12886.  
  12887.  
  12888. <p>Yeah, 600 or something.</p>
  12889.  
  12890.  
  12891.  
  12892. <p>Taya:</p>
  12893.  
  12894.  
  12895.  
  12896. <p>And so there are other cities that are also experiencing this. If you have a chance, you can, the data from the FBI&#8217;s Uniform Crime Report is actually accessible. You can also get it through-</p>
  12897.  
  12898.  
  12899.  
  12900. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12901.  
  12902.  
  12903.  
  12904. <p>Go online, just look it up.</p>
  12905.  
  12906.  
  12907.  
  12908. <p>Taya:</p>
  12909.  
  12910.  
  12911.  
  12912. <p>Get it through the Bureau of Justice Statistics. There are a couple of different ways to access it.</p>
  12913.  
  12914.  
  12915.  
  12916. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12917.  
  12918.  
  12919.  
  12920. <p>It&#8217;s all broken down by locale. By municipality.</p>
  12921.  
  12922.  
  12923.  
  12924. <p>Taya:</p>
  12925.  
  12926.  
  12927.  
  12928. <p>Right, so you can take a look. And so we are speaking from our personal experiences in the areas that we&#8217;re in, but-</p>
  12929.  
  12930.  
  12931.  
  12932. <p>PART 4 OF 5 ENDS [01:56:04]</p>
  12933.  
  12934.  
  12935.  
  12936. <p>Taya:</p>
  12937.  
  12938.  
  12939.  
  12940. <p>So we are speaking from our personal experiences in the areas that we&#8217;re in, but there have been journalists who&#8217;ve done really solid work to show that this is an overall national trend. So it may be in relation to specific crime that we&#8217;re very concerned about like homicide, and it may be like in our city, things like carjackings are high, so maybe you&#8217;re looking at a particular crime stat and we&#8217;re looking at another, so maybe that&#8217;s where the disconnect is happening.</p>
  12941.  
  12942.  
  12943.  
  12944. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12945.  
  12946.  
  12947.  
  12948. <p>Well, let&#8217;s ask one last question because we&#8217;re almost at two hours. So we have got to-</p>
  12949.  
  12950.  
  12951.  
  12952. <p>Taya:</p>
  12953.  
  12954.  
  12955.  
  12956. <p>Can I please ask about the cannabis.</p>
  12957.  
  12958.  
  12959.  
  12960. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12961.  
  12962.  
  12963.  
  12964. <p>Yes.</p>
  12965.  
  12966.  
  12967.  
  12968. <p>Taya:</p>
  12969.  
  12970.  
  12971.  
  12972. <p>Oh, okay.</p>
  12973.  
  12974.  
  12975.  
  12976. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12977.  
  12978.  
  12979.  
  12980. <p>Go ahead.</p>
  12981.  
  12982.  
  12983.  
  12984. <p>Taya:</p>
  12985.  
  12986.  
  12987.  
  12988. <p>All right, so-</p>
  12989.  
  12990.  
  12991.  
  12992. <p>Stephen:</p>
  12993.  
  12994.  
  12995.  
  12996. <p>Last question.</p>
  12997.  
  12998.  
  12999.  
  13000. <p>Taya:</p>
  13001.  
  13002.  
  13003.  
  13004. <p>Tom and Laura, I loved this piece that you did and because to me, in every aspect of it showed how important a cop watcher is. So Tom and Laura arrive on the scene, a young man and his girlfriend, his girlfriend&#8217;s a passenger,</p>
  13005.  
  13006.  
  13007.  
  13008. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13009.  
  13010.  
  13011.  
  13012. <p>Darius Dandy.</p>
  13013.  
  13014.  
  13015.  
  13016. <p>Taya:</p>
  13017.  
  13018.  
  13019.  
  13020. <p>Say the name again, [inaudible 01:56:51].</p>
  13021.  
  13022.  
  13023.  
  13024. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13025.  
  13026.  
  13027.  
  13028. <p>Darius Dandy.</p>
  13029.  
  13030.  
  13031.  
  13032. <p>Taya:</p>
  13033.  
  13034.  
  13035.  
  13036. <p>Darius. So Darius is driving, they&#8217;re pulled over, they&#8217;re harassed. I think it&#8217;s originally about window tint, and they see that they have some legally purchased marijuana. And so they start recording this and Laura can talk a little bit about what a strange DUI test they gave. But what really jumped out to me, which just touched my heart so much, is that the police, after taking away her boyfriend and taking away the car, just left the passenger standing on the road without her phone, without ID, without-</p>
  13037.  
  13038.  
  13039.  
  13040. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13041.  
  13042.  
  13043.  
  13044. <p>No, they took her.</p>
  13045.  
  13046.  
  13047.  
  13048. <p>Taya:</p>
  13049.  
  13050.  
  13051.  
  13052. <p>They took her too. I thought they&#8217;d left her on the side of the road.</p>
  13053.  
  13054.  
  13055.  
  13056. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13057.  
  13058.  
  13059.  
  13060. <p>So they took her too to the station. Essentially did. They took her phone, everything that she had in the car. When they towed the car, they took all her [inaudible 01:57:38]. And I was repeating to them like, &#8220;Are you going to let her get any of these things?&#8221; These are the obvious things that you&#8217;d need to be able to carry on with your evening while the car&#8217;s&#8230; Yeah. No, they took her back to the station. She actually refused to get out of the car.</p>
  13061.  
  13062.  
  13063.  
  13064. <p>Taya:</p>
  13065.  
  13066.  
  13067.  
  13068. <p>So you actually went to the station with them to help? Which is wonderful.</p>
  13069.  
  13070.  
  13071.  
  13072. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13073.  
  13074.  
  13075.  
  13076. <p>Yeah, so we followed them to the station, and then they basically set her on her own. But luckily we were there and I offered to give her a ride to the impound lot. Mind you, mind you though. Sorry. The show that it was after that is just, it was raining. So technically if we weren&#8217;t there, she would&#8217;ve had to walk, what was it, Daniel? The miles to the tow.</p>
  13077.  
  13078.  
  13079.  
  13080. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  13081.  
  13082.  
  13083.  
  13084. <p>It would&#8217;ve been a couple hour walk to get to her stuff, but then without a release, they tried to send her without a release. She would&#8217;ve had to walk all the way back and then-</p>
  13085.  
  13086.  
  13087.  
  13088. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13089.  
  13090.  
  13091.  
  13092. <p>And then it was after hours-</p>
  13093.  
  13094.  
  13095.  
  13096. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  13097.  
  13098.  
  13099.  
  13100. <p>&#8230; for her to have so. She would&#8217;ve had to walk for eight hours and she would&#8217;ve never accomplished getting her wallet, her keys, anything.</p>
  13101.  
  13102.  
  13103.  
  13104. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13105.  
  13106.  
  13107.  
  13108. <p>Yeah, she had to pay, well, she didn&#8217;t even have the money because she didn&#8217;t have her wallet or anything. So I loaned her money so that she could pay the after hours cost to be able to get these most obvious items of her. Okay, so the worst part of this is that they did the, what was it, Daniel, that they, it was under the, what was it? It was like a DUI investigation, he claimed.</p>
  13109.  
  13110.  
  13111.  
  13112. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  13113.  
  13114.  
  13115.  
  13116. <p>Yes. The whole thing was just a charade because apparently we caught him too many times. They&#8217;re trying to not admit or let on when we catch him doing illegal searches. So they just were framing the guy for a marijuana DUI. And I think you know about marijuana DUIs, they&#8217;re bogus on their face.</p>
  13117.  
  13118.  
  13119.  
  13120. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13121.  
  13122.  
  13123.  
  13124. <p>Wow.</p>
  13125.  
  13126.  
  13127.  
  13128. <p>Taya:</p>
  13129.  
  13130.  
  13131.  
  13132. <p>Excellent.</p>
  13133.  
  13134.  
  13135.  
  13136. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13137.  
  13138.  
  13139.  
  13140. <p>Well, I think-</p>
  13141.  
  13142.  
  13143.  
  13144. <p>Taya:</p>
  13145.  
  13146.  
  13147.  
  13148. <p>Excellent.</p>
  13149.  
  13150.  
  13151.  
  13152. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13153.  
  13154.  
  13155.  
  13156. <p>We appreciate you guys. I think Tay, we are almost up to two hours.</p>
  13157.  
  13158.  
  13159.  
  13160. <p>Taya:</p>
  13161.  
  13162.  
  13163.  
  13164. <p>I don&#8217;t want to let them go. We barely even got the chance to really talk to them.</p>
  13165.  
  13166.  
  13167.  
  13168. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13169.  
  13170.  
  13171.  
  13172. <p>I know. But we&#8217;ll have them back. We&#8217;ll have them back.</p>
  13173.  
  13174.  
  13175.  
  13176. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13177.  
  13178.  
  13179.  
  13180. <p>We love you congratulations.</p>
  13181.  
  13182.  
  13183.  
  13184. <p>Taya:</p>
  13185.  
  13186.  
  13187.  
  13188. <p>Can I at least-</p>
  13189.  
  13190.  
  13191.  
  13192. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  13193.  
  13194.  
  13195.  
  13196. <p>Let me just say, I want to congratulate you guys. I have a ton more things to talk about, but we&#8217;ll save that for another time. It was a great show. I enjoyed watching it and I hope to see you guys soon.</p>
  13197.  
  13198.  
  13199.  
  13200. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13201.  
  13202.  
  13203.  
  13204. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  13205.  
  13206.  
  13207.  
  13208. <p>Taya:</p>
  13209.  
  13210.  
  13211.  
  13212. <p>All right. I will defer to my partners. No, you&#8217;re right. I&#8217;m sorry. It&#8217;s so rare to have Tom and Laura at the same time, and between the two of them, they have amazing stories and just so much to share.</p>
  13213.  
  13214.  
  13215.  
  13216. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13217.  
  13218.  
  13219.  
  13220. <p>Could you guys keep making fake police accountability reports, oh please? Because we like to watch it.</p>
  13221.  
  13222.  
  13223.  
  13224. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13225.  
  13226.  
  13227.  
  13228. <p>We&#8217;re actually working on another one I was telling you about earlier this week, but I didn&#8217;t have time to-</p>
  13229.  
  13230.  
  13231.  
  13232. <p>Taya:</p>
  13233.  
  13234.  
  13235.  
  13236. <p>I would love that.</p>
  13237.  
  13238.  
  13239.  
  13240. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13241.  
  13242.  
  13243.  
  13244. <p>Oh yeah, for sure. For sure.</p>
  13245.  
  13246.  
  13247.  
  13248. <p>Taya:</p>
  13249.  
  13250.  
  13251.  
  13252. <p>At least by the 6th.</p>
  13253.  
  13254.  
  13255.  
  13256. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13257.  
  13258.  
  13259.  
  13260. <p>Yeah. No, they&#8217;re working on one now.</p>
  13261.  
  13262.  
  13263.  
  13264. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13265.  
  13266.  
  13267.  
  13268. <p>No, no, no. For sure. I&#8217;m working on it now, so yeah.</p>
  13269.  
  13270.  
  13271.  
  13272. <p>Taya:</p>
  13273.  
  13274.  
  13275.  
  13276. <p>Okay. Awesome.</p>
  13277.  
  13278.  
  13279.  
  13280. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13281.  
  13282.  
  13283.  
  13284. <p>I was hoping to have it ready.</p>
  13285.  
  13286.  
  13287.  
  13288. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13289.  
  13290.  
  13291.  
  13292. <p>Thank you so much.</p>
  13293.  
  13294.  
  13295.  
  13296. <p>Taya:</p>
  13297.  
  13298.  
  13299.  
  13300. <p>We appreciate you so much.</p>
  13301.  
  13302.  
  13303.  
  13304. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  13305.  
  13306.  
  13307.  
  13308. <p>Good night everybody.</p>
  13309.  
  13310.  
  13311.  
  13312. <p>Taya:</p>
  13313.  
  13314.  
  13315.  
  13316. <p>Thank you so much.</p>
  13317.  
  13318.  
  13319.  
  13320. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13321.  
  13322.  
  13323.  
  13324. <p>Love you too.</p>
  13325.  
  13326.  
  13327.  
  13328. <p>Taya:</p>
  13329.  
  13330.  
  13331.  
  13332. <p>Bye Laura. Bye Tom Zebra.</p>
  13333.  
  13334.  
  13335.  
  13336. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13337.  
  13338.  
  13339.  
  13340. <p>Bye.</p>
  13341.  
  13342.  
  13343.  
  13344. <p>Taya:</p>
  13345.  
  13346.  
  13347.  
  13348. <p>Hey, if you guys haven&#8217;t already subscribed to their channel, that&#8217;s Laura Shark CW, you&#8217;re seeing right there. That&#8217;s how you find her channel. You might not realize this, but the world of cop watchers, there aren&#8217;t a lot of females out there, so please make sure to support them like Laura Shark CW, and of course you&#8217;ve got to honor the OG Tom Zebra, so make sure to go check out his channel as well. And all the other wonderful cop watchers that we&#8217;ve had here tonight. I think most of them already knew [inaudible 02:01:03] streaming in like [inaudible 02:01:04] and out of the watch dog. But please make sure you go.</p>
  13349.  
  13350.  
  13351.  
  13352. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13353.  
  13354.  
  13355.  
  13356. <p>It&#8217;s great to see.</p>
  13357.  
  13358.  
  13359.  
  13360. <p>Taya:</p>
  13361.  
  13362.  
  13363.  
  13364. <p>Sub to Laura&#8217;s channel for me.</p>
  13365.  
  13366.  
  13367.  
  13368. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13369.  
  13370.  
  13371.  
  13372. <p>Isn&#8217;t it amazing that the cops are afraid to come out because Tom&#8217;s out there.</p>
  13373.  
  13374.  
  13375.  
  13376. <p>Taya:</p>
  13377.  
  13378.  
  13379.  
  13380. <p>I know. I love that.</p>
  13381.  
  13382.  
  13383.  
  13384. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13385.  
  13386.  
  13387.  
  13388. <p>Just a guy with a cell phone and a-</p>
  13389.  
  13390.  
  13391.  
  13392. <p>Taya:</p>
  13393.  
  13394.  
  13395.  
  13396. <p>I know.</p>
  13397.  
  13398.  
  13399.  
  13400. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13401.  
  13402.  
  13403.  
  13404. <p>&#8230; camera on his head-</p>
  13405.  
  13406.  
  13407.  
  13408. <p>Taya:</p>
  13409.  
  13410.  
  13411.  
  13412. <p>&#8230; that they&#8217;ve done that to him. I have to ask. Okay, I won&#8217;t. Can I just have one little question of Laura? One little question.</p>
  13413.  
  13414.  
  13415.  
  13416. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13417.  
  13418.  
  13419.  
  13420. <p>One more question quickly.</p>
  13421.  
  13422.  
  13423.  
  13424. <p>Taya:</p>
  13425.  
  13426.  
  13427.  
  13428. <p>One more. Okay. Laura, while you&#8217;re still here because you&#8217;re not done yet, I have to ask. Okay. You guys have gotten a lot of attention on YouTube question. You&#8217;ve had a lot of impact. Do the police treat you differently? When you show up are they like, &#8220;Oh no, it&#8217;s Laura, oh no, it&#8217;s Tom Zebra.&#8221; Or do they just act like they don&#8217;t see you? What happens when the cops see you?</p>
  13429.  
  13430.  
  13431.  
  13432. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13433.  
  13434.  
  13435.  
  13436. <p>I [inaudible 02:01:42] know Daniel, what do you think?</p>
  13437.  
  13438.  
  13439.  
  13440. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  13441.  
  13442.  
  13443.  
  13444. <p>Definitely. I think a lot of them are, they&#8217;re scared of Laura it seems like, or if she asked more serious questions. I&#8217;m more likely to put things off and just say hello and be social. She&#8217;s not as nice to them. So there&#8217;s a lot of them that try to-</p>
  13445.  
  13446.  
  13447.  
  13448. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13449.  
  13450.  
  13451.  
  13452. <p>[inaudible 02:02:03]. I&#8217;m just factual. I&#8217;m just real. I have passion. And he says a lot more in his own, when he posts videos, he gets to the point in that [inaudible 02:02:13]. But me, I am quite like, &#8220;No, no, no, I know what you did.&#8221; Or, &#8220;Wait, wait, wait, come back.&#8221; No.</p>
  13453.  
  13454.  
  13455.  
  13456. <p>Taya:</p>
  13457.  
  13458.  
  13459.  
  13460. <p>That&#8217;s great.</p>
  13461.  
  13462.  
  13463.  
  13464. <p>Tom Zebra:</p>
  13465.  
  13466.  
  13467.  
  13468. <p>If I could add one last thing. I know we&#8217;re ending the show, but after working with these guys for so many years, it&#8217;s hard to not become friends with them. So despite the awful&#8230;</p>
  13469.  
  13470.  
  13471.  
  13472. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13473.  
  13474.  
  13475.  
  13476. <p>Oh, I think we just lost him.</p>
  13477.  
  13478.  
  13479.  
  13480. <p>Taya:</p>
  13481.  
  13482.  
  13483.  
  13484. <p>Oh, no.</p>
  13485.  
  13486.  
  13487.  
  13488. <p>Laura Sharp:</p>
  13489.  
  13490.  
  13491.  
  13492. <p>Oh, no, no, no. He says he&#8217;s friends with us. I don&#8217;t claim such just silly thing. That&#8217;s so ridiculous. Good night.</p>
  13493.  
  13494.  
  13495.  
  13496. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13497.  
  13498.  
  13499.  
  13500. <p>Good night. Good night.</p>
  13501.  
  13502.  
  13503.  
  13504. <p>Taya:</p>
  13505.  
  13506.  
  13507.  
  13508. <p>Good night.</p>
  13509.  
  13510.  
  13511.  
  13512. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13513.  
  13514.  
  13515.  
  13516. <p>Thank you so much.</p>
  13517.  
  13518.  
  13519.  
  13520. <p>Taya:</p>
  13521.  
  13522.  
  13523.  
  13524. <p>It was great to have you both. And we definitely want to see you again soon. Thank you so much.</p>
  13525.  
  13526.  
  13527.  
  13528. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13529.  
  13530.  
  13531.  
  13532. <p>Cool.</p>
  13533.  
  13534.  
  13535.  
  13536. <p>Taya:</p>
  13537.  
  13538.  
  13539.  
  13540. <p>Okay.</p>
  13541.  
  13542.  
  13543.  
  13544. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13545.  
  13546.  
  13547.  
  13548. <p>That was amazing.</p>
  13549.  
  13550.  
  13551.  
  13552. <p>Taya:</p>
  13553.  
  13554.  
  13555.  
  13556. <p>Absolutely amazing. I love the idea that they&#8217;re scared of her like she&#8217;s mean to the cops. I&#8217;ve met Laura in person, she&#8217;s not-</p>
  13557.  
  13558.  
  13559.  
  13560. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13561.  
  13562.  
  13563.  
  13564. <p>We met Laura in person. She&#8217;s the kindest person.</p>
  13565.  
  13566.  
  13567.  
  13568. <p>Taya:</p>
  13569.  
  13570.  
  13571.  
  13572. <p>She&#8217;s a petite person. She&#8217;s not intimidating in any way. So to imagine her being mean and standing up in that way is amazing.</p>
  13573.  
  13574.  
  13575.  
  13576. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13577.  
  13578.  
  13579.  
  13580. <p>Absolutely.</p>
  13581.  
  13582.  
  13583.  
  13584. <p>Taya:</p>
  13585.  
  13586.  
  13587.  
  13588. <p>And I just have to thank all of our guests, for just their insight, being willing to spend their time with us and just for your patience to stick with us and talk to us individually. And I want to thank all of you for the amazing work that you do. You each have your own styles, you have your own way. And what&#8217;s even better is that you always find a way to somehow support and help each other. You&#8217;ve created an amazing community and I&#8217;m so glad to be at least a small part of it. So Stephen, I have a question for you. As I was talking about the theme of the show, I mentioned a phrase that is very familiar to you, a community that has something in common, but it&#8217;s actually a play on words on a book by a philosopher, Alphonso Lingis who wrote a book called A Community with Nothing in Common. So you spoke to this philosopher, you wrote about him. Can you talk a little bit about that book in relation to cop watchers?</p>
  13589.  
  13590.  
  13591.  
  13592. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13593.  
  13594.  
  13595.  
  13596. <p>Well, and to be really quick, because we don&#8217;t have a lot of time, but you brought up something that really struck me. Really, it almost made me upset because I was reminded of things that happened to me when I started covering police 15 years ago. And we were in the midst of zero tolerance and things police were crazy and they were shooting people in the back and all these horrible things were happening and I was trying to cover it, report out and in truth. And they tried to destroy my life basically. They pulled me over like 40 times. They would always harass me. My editor said I was a cop hater. The things that would happen to me were really horrible. And there was other things they did wrote about me as if I was some sort of crazy freak.</p>
  13597.  
  13598.  
  13599.  
  13600. <p>But then in 2016, when the federal government comes in and says unconstitutional, racist policing and all this stuff, it was even more painful for me because in many ways the damage had been done. But it affected me deeply. It made me a paranoid person and a person who doesn&#8217;t trust people much and a person who feels isolated. But the whole wonderful thing about talking to these people, the whole amazing thing is all these people who I really have very little in common with on a regular basis, that I don&#8217;t even live in the same cities I do, make me feel like I&#8217;m not alone in this effort to hold power accountable. And as painful as it was for me, when I know the people like Otto have gone through so much, James Freeman, I know Eric Brandt is in prison right now. I know all these people have suffered.</p>
  13601.  
  13602.  
  13603.  
  13604. <p>And so I feel like I have some connection to something that in many ways makes it all worthwhile. Because truthfully, I&#8217;ll tell you this, you can write all these things about police and about how bad policing was in Baltimore, but when the Justice Department comes around and no one says, &#8220;Hey, you did a good job. We appreciate what you did. We understand you suffered.&#8221; People like Anthony Guglielmi, don&#8217;t apologize to you for calling you Jerk, or some of the other stuff they did to me. I could just go on and on, on what happened to me. Dragging me into a trial board and screaming at me and subpoenaed me all the time to go into court, all these really things when all I was doing was writing. I wasn&#8217;t dealing drugs, I was just writing the truth. And so I feel connected to the people that we report on because they have been through this too.</p>
  13605.  
  13606.  
  13607.  
  13608. <p>And I understand the impulse. The people who we talk to, but [inaudible 02:06:53], these people aren&#8217;t doing it. Even though people say, &#8220;Well, it&#8217;s all about YouTube clicks,&#8221; or something. They are doing it, because they believe in this process of holding power accountable. And so in that sense, we have nothing in common and everything in common. And it&#8217;s helping me a lot personally because I just feel angry sometimes when you bring that up. I just don&#8217;t understand it really. I don&#8217;t understand. But I think I read once about, I think it was a woman who was a reporter, I can&#8217;t remember her name, but she said, &#8220;You think when you cover the truth and you say the truth, that everyone&#8217;s going to come running and say, &#8216;It&#8217;s the truth.&#8217; That&#8217;s not what happens.&#8221; And as one of our guests pointed out, police don&#8217;t really serve the public, so to speak. They do, they serve this great inequality machine. And that&#8217;s part of the reason. Anyway,</p>
  13609.  
  13610.  
  13611.  
  13612. <p>Taya:</p>
  13613.  
  13614.  
  13615.  
  13616. <p>Yes. No, well said.</p>
  13617.  
  13618.  
  13619.  
  13620. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13621.  
  13622.  
  13623.  
  13624. <p>Anyway, thank you.</p>
  13625.  
  13626.  
  13627.  
  13628. <p>Taya:</p>
  13629.  
  13630.  
  13631.  
  13632. <p>No, very well said.</p>
  13633.  
  13634.  
  13635.  
  13636. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13637.  
  13638.  
  13639.  
  13640. <p>I just wanted to say that.</p>
  13641.  
  13642.  
  13643.  
  13644. <p>Taya:</p>
  13645.  
  13646.  
  13647.  
  13648. <p>No, and you should say that. And what&#8217;s interesting, someone said, &#8220;Does Stephen know former Baltimore cop Michael Wood?&#8221; I remember him from-</p>
  13649.  
  13650.  
  13651.  
  13652. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13653.  
  13654.  
  13655.  
  13656. <p>Yes, I do.</p>
  13657.  
  13658.  
  13659.  
  13660. <p>Taya:</p>
  13661.  
  13662.  
  13663.  
  13664. <p>Yes. We both interviewed Michael Wood and he went on to do some-</p>
  13665.  
  13666.  
  13667.  
  13668. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13669.  
  13670.  
  13671.  
  13672. <p>What happened to him?</p>
  13673.  
  13674.  
  13675.  
  13676. <p>Taya:</p>
  13677.  
  13678.  
  13679.  
  13680. <p>He went on to do some interesting things like, like rob veterans of campaign, allegedly.</p>
  13681.  
  13682.  
  13683.  
  13684. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13685.  
  13686.  
  13687.  
  13688. <p>Allegedly.</p>
  13689.  
  13690.  
  13691.  
  13692. <p>Taya:</p>
  13693.  
  13694.  
  13695.  
  13696. <p>Allegedly mismanaged some donations.</p>
  13697.  
  13698.  
  13699.  
  13700. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13701.  
  13702.  
  13703.  
  13704. <p>Let&#8217;s put it this way. Initially, he was very revealing in talking a lot of truth but then he became muddled in controversy. But yes.</p>
  13705.  
  13706.  
  13707.  
  13708. <p>Taya:</p>
  13709.  
  13710.  
  13711.  
  13712. <p>I&#8217;m sorry.</p>
  13713.  
  13714.  
  13715.  
  13716. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13717.  
  13718.  
  13719.  
  13720. <p>We are aware of it.</p>
  13721.  
  13722.  
  13723.  
  13724. <p>Taya:</p>
  13725.  
  13726.  
  13727.  
  13728. <p>Allegedly.</p>
  13729.  
  13730.  
  13731.  
  13732. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13733.  
  13734.  
  13735.  
  13736. <p>Allegedly.</p>
  13737.  
  13738.  
  13739.  
  13740. <p>Taya:</p>
  13741.  
  13742.  
  13743.  
  13744. <p>Allegedly mismanaged these funds. Let me be clear. So just once again, I want to thank all of the wonderful cop watchers and activists who joined us tonight, both on the channel and in the live chat. I&#8217;ve seen you, I might not have been able to put up everyone&#8217;s comment, but I really did try to at least put up some of them and read them. And thank you. Thank you, Russell. You&#8217;re my favorite too. Thank you. That&#8217;s a very sweet comment. So I just wanted you to know I was looking at all these great comments. I&#8217;m going to be in the comment section. Excuse me, in the chat, I&#8217;m going to be in the comment section later.</p>
  13745.  
  13746.  
  13747.  
  13748. <p>As always, I do a PAR comment of the week and I try to pick out a comment. So I&#8217;ll be doing that later as well. So I just wanted to say thank you for everyone who is participating, and I just want you to know how lucky we feel to be able to cover this vibrant and eclectic and fascinating community. And it is a thought-provoking collection of people to say the least. And we are so grateful to have been able to tell their stories. Stephen, I&#8217;m about to give my 5th year anniversary rant.</p>
  13749.  
  13750.  
  13751.  
  13752. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13753.  
  13754.  
  13755.  
  13756. <p>Happy anniversary.</p>
  13757.  
  13758.  
  13759.  
  13760. <p>Taya:</p>
  13761.  
  13762.  
  13763.  
  13764. <p>Happy anniversary to you too.</p>
  13765.  
  13766.  
  13767.  
  13768. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13769.  
  13770.  
  13771.  
  13772. <p>Thank you.</p>
  13773.  
  13774.  
  13775.  
  13776. <p>Taya:</p>
  13777.  
  13778.  
  13779.  
  13780. <p>You were a member of the mainstream media and now you&#8217;re in a very different world.</p>
  13781.  
  13782.  
  13783.  
  13784. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13785.  
  13786.  
  13787.  
  13788. <p>Yes, I am. But I wouldn&#8217;t be anywhere else, then here next to you, as Jay-Z said, &#8220;You could have been anywhere else in the world but here.&#8221;</p>
  13789.  
  13790.  
  13791.  
  13792. <p>Taya:</p>
  13793.  
  13794.  
  13795.  
  13796. <p>Oh, that&#8217;s great.</p>
  13797.  
  13798.  
  13799.  
  13800. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13801.  
  13802.  
  13803.  
  13804. <p>Yeah.</p>
  13805.  
  13806.  
  13807.  
  13808. <p>Taya:</p>
  13809.  
  13810.  
  13811.  
  13812. <p>Nice quote with Jay-Z.</p>
  13813.  
  13814.  
  13815.  
  13816. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13817.  
  13818.  
  13819.  
  13820. <p>Yeah. Thank you.</p>
  13821.  
  13822.  
  13823.  
  13824. <p>Taya:</p>
  13825.  
  13826.  
  13827.  
  13828. <p>Well done. You&#8217;re in a different world. Is there anything you want to share about covering this phenomena or?</p>
  13829.  
  13830.  
  13831.  
  13832. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13833.  
  13834.  
  13835.  
  13836. <p>Well, as I said before, I feel kindred spirits here, and it&#8217;s been a great 5th anniversary gift for me to hear from people who have struggled with the same things I have. And it makes me feel good that we are together in some ways, a community though not together in the same space, but by the same ideals. And that feels good. So I&#8217;ll say that.</p>
  13837.  
  13838.  
  13839.  
  13840. <p>Taya:</p>
  13841.  
  13842.  
  13843.  
  13844. <p>That&#8217;s beautifully said.</p>
  13845.  
  13846.  
  13847.  
  13848. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13849.  
  13850.  
  13851.  
  13852. <p>Thank you.</p>
  13853.  
  13854.  
  13855.  
  13856. <p>Taya:</p>
  13857.  
  13858.  
  13859.  
  13860. <p>Okay, now it&#8217;s my turn. As I&#8217;ve discussed at the beginning of the show, all of our work on the police accountability report is driven by a community, people who care enough to watch and share and comment, and even film cops. It&#8217;s driven by something we would call an audience, but I would characterize it more accurately as a collective of people focused on a single idea. Self-governance requires participation and good governance requires even more active involvement. And what I mean is that what I see is I report on the variety of people who watch or simply watch us, is a movement tied to more than an ideology. That is, it&#8217;s a group of people acting within their individual capacities to facilitate something more important than their own needs. A collective good, a common good. Think about it, when a person appears on our show to discuss an encounter with police, it&#8217;s more than simply an opportunity to tell their story. It&#8217;s an affirmation that standing up and pushing back and participating is more than what philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre would call a useless passion.</p>
  13861.  
  13862.  
  13863.  
  13864. <p>It is, at its core, an acknowledgement that democracy freedom and our essential rights require work to maintain them. Meaning if we don&#8217;t fight each and every day for self-governance, we will lose it. And that&#8217;s what this show, my show, Stephen&#8217;s show, your show has taught me. It has forced me to look beyond the past implications of a dystopian future where our personal agency has been rendered impotent. And it has inspired me to comprehend the real meaning of a single individual coming forward and standing up for themselves when police and the mainstream media would brand them as criminals. And it tells me that despite the cynicism that pervades social media and the apathy of the internet, there are people who believe that fighting back really matters.</p>
  13865.  
  13866.  
  13867.  
  13868. <p>Is there anything really as profound as an average citizen whose rights have been trampled by police bravely coming forward on a Zoom call to tell their story? Is there anything more inspiring than the premise of a single person story, a story that can be painful, and even embarrassing to tell can actually change all of our lives. But this is exactly what I&#8217;ve witnessed, and I&#8217;ve literally watched it unfold in real time. This community and the people who are part of it, you are changing the world for the better. And you who are watching the live stream who are in this live chat right now are part of it too. How do I know? Well, let me count the ways, so to speak. Let me tell you now and show you what I mean. Let me just go back five years to one of our early guest, Michelle Lucas.</p>
  13869.  
  13870.  
  13871.  
  13872. <p>Michelle had been forced to plead guilty to a crime she didn&#8217;t commit, namely passing a counterfeit bill. The fake money was given to her by a fellow employee to purchase liquor at the store, but the police didn&#8217;t believe her. And while she was awaiting sentencing, she told her story to us. After our story was published, which exposed the flaws of the case, the head public defender stepped in and withdrew her plea and dropped the charges. And I want you to know it is nearly unheard of for someone to have pled guilty and then have the public defender&#8217;s office step in to have it overturned. And then there&#8217;s a story of an Ohio car driver named Lufty Salim. Mr. Salim was parked outside of a pharmacy during the pandemic when an off-duty cop approached him, told him to move. And when Mr. Salim tried to explain that he was waiting for a patient, he started to drag Lufty out of the car and then tasered him multiple times. After telling his story, Lufty sued and a court tossed his suit due to, you guessed it, qualified immunity.</p>
  13873.  
  13874.  
  13875.  
  13876. <p>But Mr. Salim persisted. And just recently a circuit court panel overturned the decision, giving him another chance to fight to hold police accountable. Or I could talk about Caleb Dial. Caleb was charged with resisting arrest and felony escape by Milton police. They posted his mugshot on Facebook and hinted that he had been involved in domestic violence, all of which was untrue. After telling his story and showing the ring camera video that proved the officer was lying, Caleb obtained a lawyer, sued and won a major settlement from the Milton West Virginia Police Department. Or I could tell the story of one of our very first guests, Erica Hamlett, whose sixteen-year-old son was confronted by an off-duty Baltimore cop who pointed a gun at the teenager while he was waiting for a bus. The officer was never charged, but Hamlett fought both the department and the city to hold them accountable.</p>
  13877.  
  13878.  
  13879.  
  13880. <p>And just a few weeks ago, a jury awarded the family $250.000. These are just a few of the stories that we have been told over the past five years. Tales of malfeasance that all started with a simple idea you, meaning you, the people will not tolerate the diminishment of our rights or government that feels free to violate them. And this is what it&#8217;s really about. It&#8217;s not just police, or law enforcement, or laws, or legal precedents. What this battle really amounts to is to fight to preserve the most precious right we have, the right to self-governance. What we&#8217;re really witnessing when we report on these stories is a collective act of faith. That these rights not only matter, but are worth fighting to maintain that the phrase, &#8220;We the people,&#8221; means something tangible. And that to live in a free nation governed by equality and respect for the voice of the citizenry, means we have to speak up.</p>
  13881.  
  13882.  
  13883.  
  13884. <p>And speaking up comes with risks, and speaking out is often met with retaliation. Just consider how much jail time Eric Brandt is serving for doing so, even though what he said was offensive. His goals, his objective are not only worth considering, but debating so we can understand the limits of free speech and the price of imposing constraints upon it. So I guess what the show has taught me is that courage lies with the people who take the risk to stand up. Why else would Eric, and Abidy, and Monkey 83 stage protests around Denver over the rights of the homeless, get arrested for it, and then win settlement after settlement with the city of Denver? Why else would James Freeman turn his attention to the court system of New Mexico? And what other motivation could Otto have in mind to continue to fight the system that tried to force him to plead guilty and denied him the right to see his children?</p>
  13885.  
  13886.  
  13887.  
  13888. <p>It&#8217;s all an act premised on the idea that our world can be made better, that our rights are worth protecting, and that our freedom is non-negotiable. Believe me there days when I despair, moments when even I have doubts. But what always inspire me to double down and keep moving forward is you, the people who care. The people who not only want better, but demand better. The community that uplifts us all and the community that I&#8217;m so proud to be a part of. And it&#8217;s a community that most definitely has something in common, and it&#8217;s our humanity and our love of our constitutional rights. So I would like to thank all of you again, and I want to make sure-</p>
  13889.  
  13890.  
  13891.  
  13892. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13893.  
  13894.  
  13895.  
  13896. <p>[inaudible 02:17:19] applaud your 5th anniversary. You need applause for that. Was quite [inaudible 02:17:23]. That was-</p>
  13897.  
  13898.  
  13899.  
  13900. <p>Taya:</p>
  13901.  
  13902.  
  13903.  
  13904. <p>I don&#8217;t know if I deserve applause.</p>
  13905.  
  13906.  
  13907.  
  13908. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13909.  
  13910.  
  13911.  
  13912. <p>Sorry, I didn&#8217;t mean to interject there, but I was stunned. I was moved.</p>
  13913.  
  13914.  
  13915.  
  13916. <p>Taya:</p>
  13917.  
  13918.  
  13919.  
  13920. <p>Oh, well thank you Stephen. I hope other folks, oh, someone said, this is not the comment of the week. I just want to make sure to thank the amazing folks who helped make the show special. First, my dear friend and my very first moderator, Noli D. Hi, Noli D. and my second moderator, but no less appreciated, the kind-hearted Lacey Ard. And I have to thank the gentlemen behind the scenes who helped make the show possible tonight. Cameron Grandino and David Hebden. Thank you, gentlemen.</p>
  13921.  
  13922.  
  13923.  
  13924. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13925.  
  13926.  
  13927.  
  13928. <p>Thank you so much you guys.</p>
  13929.  
  13930.  
  13931.  
  13932. <p>Taya:</p>
  13933.  
  13934.  
  13935.  
  13936. <p>And hats off to our editor in chief who&#8217;s a great supporter of our work. Max, thank you.</p>
  13937.  
  13938.  
  13939.  
  13940. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13941.  
  13942.  
  13943.  
  13944. <p>Thank you Max.</p>
  13945.  
  13946.  
  13947.  
  13948. <p>Taya:</p>
  13949.  
  13950.  
  13951.  
  13952. <p>And I have to thank each and every one of you who shows up to our live streams. We appreciate you and I hope that you know it because we did this crazy live stream for you. That&#8217;s why we did it so we could interact with you and you guys when we don&#8217;t have the Thursday night live chat. I really do miss you. I honestly do. I hope you miss me too. Okay, so just to let everyone know, this is the time when I think my amazing patrons. Okay. I saw a Matter Of Rights down here. Okay, so this is when I thank them. So please make sure to listen up for your name. Please forgive me if I stumble or mispronounce something. And I just want to say thank you so much for your support. Are you ready for the Patreons?</p>
  13953.  
  13954.  
  13955.  
  13956. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13957.  
  13958.  
  13959.  
  13960. <p>Yes.</p>
  13961.  
  13962.  
  13963.  
  13964. <p>Taya:</p>
  13965.  
  13966.  
  13967.  
  13968. <p>Patron Patreons?</p>
  13969.  
  13970.  
  13971.  
  13972. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13973.  
  13974.  
  13975.  
  13976. <p>Yes.</p>
  13977.  
  13978.  
  13979.  
  13980. <p>Taya:</p>
  13981.  
  13982.  
  13983.  
  13984. <p>Okay. So first, for our PR patrons, first coming up, our amazing, loyal, and exceptionally intelligent associate producers, Lucida Garcia, David Keeley, John ER, Louis P, and then of course our wonderful PR super friends who are so generous and help us fight for justice with their donations and their moral support Matter Of Rights, Chris R, Kenneth Lawrence K, Pineapple Girl, Shane B and Angela True. And of course, people with wonderful and great taste in YouTube videos are official patrons. And I&#8217;m only saying the first letter of the last name because I don&#8217;t accidentally want to reveal too much information about someone. So Gary H, Michael W. Joseph P Dur Devil, Nope. Patty, Kemi, XXXX, Libit, Dante, Kipi S, John M, Joe Six. Six Estate AZ, Kyle R, Calvin M, Stephen D, Rod B, Celeste Dupy S, PT, Just M 2 Cents. Talia B, Tamara A, John K, True Tube Live.</p>
  13985.  
  13986.  
  13987.  
  13988. <p>Liz S, Gary T, and last but not least, are loyal, kind, and most certainly good-looking friends of PAR. Are you ready?</p>
  13989.  
  13990.  
  13991.  
  13992. <p>Stephen:</p>
  13993.  
  13994.  
  13995.  
  13996. <p>Mm-hmm.</p>
  13997.  
  13998.  
  13999.  
  14000. <p>Taya:</p>
  14001.  
  14002.  
  14003.  
  14004. <p>Okay. Ryan Pantilla, Sean B, Ronald H, Hugo F, Social Nationalist, Marcia E, Tim R, Justin P, Conrad B, Wingate B, Bill Ding, Ninding N, David W, Regina O, Jodes, Frank FK, Mary M, Mike D, Linda Or, and Linda, I got your card. I love that picture of Alaska you sent me. That was so sweet. You&#8217;re an absolute sweetheart. I&#8217;ve saved your letter. You&#8217;re awesome. Chris M, Dean C, Shannon P, Cameron J, Farmer Jane USA. Marbin G, Kimmy Cat P, Kurt A, Daniel W, William TG, DBMC, John K, Pot Shot, Stephen B, Cindy. K, Seskel S, Keith Bernard M, John M, Janet K, Mark William L, Noli D, Guy B, Ron F, Alan J, Trey P, Julius Geyser, Omar O, Umesh H, John P, Ryan, Lacey R, Douglas P, Andrea JO, Siggy Young, Stephen J, Michael Stephen L, Default Urine, Peter J, Joel A.</p>
  14005.  
  14006.  
  14007.  
  14008. <p>Larry L, Artemis LA. Jimmy Touchdown. He was our very first patron. Kenny G, David B, [inaudible 02:21:24], I&#8217;m A Lot To Unpack, Marlin, Cool Raul 07, Soulja, the Self-Care Maven Cat, Negrita, Gary B, Dan F, Eric G, Lorelai, W, Luis, S, Thomas C, Arvin N, Steve MC, Carson W, Twila M, Brad W, Cynthia Corrine, D, Mike K, Loretta S, Marciana, Brian M, Glen R, Mike K, I Is Circle of the Quantum Note, Philonius Punk, Betty R, Byron M, Graham Brigg W, Zira M, and RBMH. That&#8217;s it. Those are our beautiful Patreons. Those are our beautiful patrons. And I want to thank everyone that spent time with us in the live chat tonight. Like I said, I&#8217;m going to be in the comments for a little while later so you can say hi to me, share what you thought of the show.</p>
  14009.  
  14010.  
  14011.  
  14012. <p>And of course, I&#8217;m going to be looking for my PAR comment of the week. So if that&#8217;s something that you&#8217;re interested in, I&#8217;ll be taking little snapshots and putting some aside so I can have some nice comments of the week for this week and next. We&#8217;re not going to be back for two weeks, but we are working on one heck of a report for you, and it&#8217;s going to have in it a cop watcher that you know well. You might&#8217;ve seen him in the comment section today. He was fortunate to not be incarcerated this week. His name is Manuel Mata, and he&#8217;s going to help elucidate some of the larger problems with policing in this country. So I want to thank everyone. And of course, if you have any tips that you want to share with us, please reach out to us at PAR at therealnews.com. And of course, you can always reach out to me directly @TayasBaltimore on Facebook and Twitter. Stephen, is there anything I should allow you to say before I go?</p>
  14013.  
  14014.  
  14015.  
  14016. <p>Stephen:</p>
  14017.  
  14018.  
  14019.  
  14020. <p>Happy anniversary.</p>
  14021.  
  14022.  
  14023.  
  14024. <p>Taya:</p>
  14025.  
  14026.  
  14027.  
  14028. <p>All right, happy anniversary to you too.</p>
  14029.  
  14030.  
  14031.  
  14032. <p>Stephen:</p>
  14033.  
  14034.  
  14035.  
  14036. <p>Take us with your&#8230;</p>
  14037.  
  14038.  
  14039.  
  14040. <p>Taya:</p>
  14041.  
  14042.  
  14043.  
  14044. <p>Okay, and happy anniversary to my awesome mods, Noli D and Lacey R, and to anyone who I didn&#8217;t get to say goodbye to, I&#8217;m sorry, but I&#8217;ll try to make it up to you everyone. Thanks for joining me, and please be safe out there.</p>
  14045.  
  14046.  
  14047.  
  14048. <p></p>
  14049. ]]></content:encoded>
  14053. <post-id xmlns="com-wordpress:feed-additions:1">312531</post-id> </item>
  14054. <item>
  14055. <title>Before East Palestine, there was Portsmouth</title>
  14056. <link>https://therealnews.com/before-east-palestine-there-was-portsmouth</link>
  14058. <dc:creator><![CDATA[Maximillian Alvarez]]></dc:creator>
  14059. <pubDate>Wed, 24 Apr 2024 16:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
  14060. <category><![CDATA[Economy and Inequality]]></category>
  14061. <category><![CDATA[Politics and Movements: US]]></category>
  14062. <category><![CDATA[Working People]]></category>
  14063. <category><![CDATA[east palestine]]></category>
  14064. <category><![CDATA[labor]]></category>
  14065. <category><![CDATA[Podcast]]></category>
  14066. <guid isPermaLink="false">https://therealnews.com/?p=312426</guid>
  14067.  
  14068. <description><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="562" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C562&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Photo of Vina Colley in East Palestine, Ohio, on March 23, 2024. Photo courtesy of Steve Zeltzer." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=300%2C165&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1024%2C562&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=768%2C421&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1536%2C842&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=2048%2C1123&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1200%2C658&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1568%2C860&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=2000%2C1097&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=400%2C219&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C562&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>Vina Colley was hired as an electrician at the Portsmouth Gaseous Diffusion Plant in 1980, where her employers knowingly exposed her, her coworkers, and her community to radioactive material. She has been fighting for justice, accountability, and compensation ever since.]]></description>
  14069. <content:encoded><![CDATA[<figure><img width="1024" height="562" src="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C562&amp;ssl=1" class="attachment-rss-image-size size-rss-image-size wp-post-image" alt="Photo of Vina Colley in East Palestine, Ohio, on March 23, 2024. Photo courtesy of Steve Zeltzer." decoding="async" srcset="https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?w=2560&amp;ssl=1 2560w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=300%2C165&amp;ssl=1 300w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1024%2C562&amp;ssl=1 1024w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=768%2C421&amp;ssl=1 768w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1536%2C842&amp;ssl=1 1536w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=2048%2C1123&amp;ssl=1 2048w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1200%2C658&amp;ssl=1 1200w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=1568%2C860&amp;ssl=1 1568w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=2000%2C1097&amp;ssl=1 2000w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?resize=400%2C219&amp;ssl=1 400w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?w=2340&amp;ssl=1 2340w, https://i0.wp.com/therealnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Screenshot-2024-04-23-at-11.27.37-PM-scaled.jpeg?fit=1024%2C562&amp;ssl=1&amp;w=370 370w" sizes="(max-width: 34.9rem) calc(100vw - 2rem), (max-width: 53rem) calc(8 * (100vw / 12)), (min-width: 53rem) calc(6 * (100vw / 12)), 100vw" /></figure>
  14070. <figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-rich is-provider-spotify wp-block-embed-spotify"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
  14071. <iframe title="Spotify Embed: Before East Palestine, there was Portsmouth" style="border-radius: 12px" width="100%" height="152" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen allow="autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; fullscreen; picture-in-picture" loading="lazy" src="https://open.spotify.com/embed/episode/7lkHegmXuuozwYz2wwKRCQ?si=27a2978d1d7046df&#038;utm_source=oembed"></iframe>
  14072. </div></figure>
  14073.  
  14074.  
  14075.  
  14076. <p class="has-drop-cap">&#8220;Vina Colley was Erin Brockovich before Erin Brockovich,&#8221; Kevin Williams wrote in a 2020&nbsp;<em>Belt Magazine</em>&nbsp;article titled, &#8220;The Poisonous Legacy of Portsmouth’s Gaseous Diffusion Plant.&#8221; Williams continues, </p>
  14077.  
  14078.  
  14079.  
  14080. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  14081. <p>&#8220;Colley has become an unlikely citizen-scientist, spending a lifetime researching and documenting PORTS and its sins&#8230; Colley was hired as an electrician at the facility in 1980 and worked there for three years. &#8216;I was exposed to everything. We were cleaning off radioactive equipment that we did not know was radioactive. They never told us,&#8217; Colley told me. Then, she said, her hair started falling out, she developed rashes, and &#8216;I got really sick and went to the hospital, not knowing that it was my job causing me all these problems. I had big tumors.&#8217; In the four decades since, she’s faced a range of health problems, including chronic bronchitis, tumors, and pulmonary edema.&#8221; </p>
  14082. </blockquote>
  14083.  
  14084.  
  14085.  
  14086. <p>In this episode, we sit down with Colley herself to talk about growing up in Ohio during America&#8217;s Cold War atomic age, her experience working as an electrician at the Portsmouth Gaseous Diffusion Plant, and her decades-long fight to hold the plant and the government accountable for what they&#8217;ve done to her, her coworkers, and her community, and to get them the compensation they deserve.<br><br><strong>Additional links/info below…</strong></p>
  14087.  
  14088.  
  14089.  
  14090. <ul>
  14091. <li>Vina&#8217;s&nbsp;<a href="https://www.facebook.com/vina.colley" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a>&nbsp;page</li>
  14092.  
  14093.  
  14094.  
  14095. <li>DOL Energy Advisory Board Information: Comments for the Record, &#8220;<a href="https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/owcp/energy/regs/compliance/advboard/colley_email2_11202019.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">My name is Vina Colley and I am a sick worker from the Portsmouth Gaseous Diffusion plant in Piketon, Ohio&#8230;</a>&#8220;</li>
  14096.  
  14097.  
  14098.  
  14099. <li>Kevin Williams,&nbsp;<em>Belt Magazine</em>, &#8220;<a href="https://beltmag.com/portsmouth-gaseous-diffusion-plant-legacy/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">The Poisonous Legacy of Portsmouth’s Gaseous Diffusion Plant</a>&#8220;</li>
  14100.  
  14101.  
  14102.  
  14103. <li>Erin Gottsacker, The Ohio Newsroom, &#8220;<a href="https://www.statenews.org/section/the-ohio-newsroom/2024-04-17/piketon-stopped-enriching-uranium-twenty-years-ago-now-the-nuclear-industry-is-coming-back" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Piketon stopped enriching uranium twenty years ago. Now the nuclear industry is coming back</a>&#8220;</li>
  14104.  
  14105.  
  14106.  
  14107. <li><em>Scioto Valley Guardian</em>, &#8220;<a href="https://sciotovalleyguardian.com/2024/03/08/residents-in-pike-county-closer-to-justice-and-compensation-for-radioactive-contaminants/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Residents in Pike County closer to justice and compensation for radioactive contaminants</a>&#8220;</li>
  14108.  
  14109.  
  14110.  
  14111. <li>Sen. Sherrod Brown, Press Release: &#8220;<a href="https://www.brown.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/sherrod-brown-secures-commitment-to-work-to-add-pike-scioto-county-residents-to-radiation-exposure-compensation-program" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Brown secures commitment to work to add Pike, Scioto county residents to radiation exposure compensation program</a>&#8220;</li>
  14112.  
  14113.  
  14114.  
  14115. <li>Maximillian Alvarez, The Real News Network, &#8220;<a href="https://therealnews.com/east-palestine-residents-demand-fully-funded-healthcare" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">East Palestine residents demand fully-funded healthcare</a>&#8220;</li>
  14116. </ul>
  14117.  
  14118.  
  14119.  
  14120. <p><strong>Permanent</strong>&nbsp;<strong>links</strong>&nbsp;<strong>below&#8230;</strong></p>
  14121.  
  14122.  
  14123.  
  14124. <ul>
  14125. <li><em>Working People</em>&nbsp;<a href="https://www.patreon.com/WorkingPeople" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Patreon</a>&nbsp;page</li>
  14126.  
  14127.  
  14128.  
  14129. <li><a href="https://www.speakpipe.com/workingpeople" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Leave us a voicemail</a>&nbsp;and we might play it on the show!</li>
  14130.  
  14131.  
  14132.  
  14133. <li>Labor Radio / Podcast Network&nbsp;<a href="https://www.laborradionetwork.org/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">website</a>,&nbsp;<a href="https://www.facebook.com/LaborRadioNet/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a>&nbsp;page, and&nbsp;<a href="https://twitter.com/laborradionet" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Twitter</a>&nbsp;page</li>
  14134.  
  14135.  
  14136.  
  14137. <li><em>In These Times</em>&nbsp;<a href="https://inthesetimes.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">website</a>,&nbsp;<a href="https://www.facebook.com/inthesetimesmag/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a>&nbsp;page, and&nbsp;<a href="https://twitter.com/inthesetimesmag" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Twitter</a>&nbsp;page</li>
  14138.  
  14139.  
  14140.  
  14141. <li>The Real News Network&nbsp;<a href="https://therealnews.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">website</a>,&nbsp;<a href="https://www.youtube.com/c/therealnews" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">YouTube</a>&nbsp;channel,&nbsp;<a href="https://therealnews.com/our-shows-podcasts" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">podcast</a>&nbsp;feeds,&nbsp;<a href="https://www.facebook.com/therealnews" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Facebook</a>&nbsp;page, and&nbsp;<a href="https://twitter.com/TheRealNews" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Twitter</a>&nbsp;page</li>
  14142. </ul>
  14143.  
  14144.  
  14145.  
  14146. <p><strong>Featured</strong>&nbsp;<strong>Music&#8230;</strong></p>
  14147.  
  14148.  
  14149.  
  14150. <ul>
  14151. <li>Jules Taylor, &#8220;<em>Working People&#8221;</em>&nbsp;Theme Song</li>
  14152. </ul>
  14153.  
  14154.  
  14155.  
  14156. <blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
  14157. <p>Studio Production: Steve Zeltzer, Maximillian Alvarez<br>Post-Production: Jules Taylor</p>
  14158. </blockquote>
  14159.  
  14160.  
  14161.  
  14162. <hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity"/>
  14163.  
  14164.  
  14165.  
  14166. <h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="h-transcript">Transcript</h2>
  14167.  
  14168.  
  14169.  
  14170. <p><em>The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.</em></p>
  14171.  
  14172.  
  14173.  
  14174. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14175.  
  14176.  
  14177.  
  14178. <p>My name is Vina Colley. I am president of a group called Portmouth Pike, residents for Environmental Safety and Security. We had been, were formed in 1989 or 1987, sorry. And we also co-chair National Nuclear Workers for Justice. We&#8217;ve been here, I&#8217;ve been working on this almost 39 plus years. I live 11 air miles from the plant. My county is where the plant is, and I live in CIO County. I was born and raised in Portmouth, Ohio. I lived on Tru Street, lived a normal childhood life. I went to school, rode motorcycles, was in the sports and enjoyed my childhood and grew up not knowing about this plant being out there. And so I worked at, when I grew up, I worked at various different jobs and went the high school. And my last job that I worked at was at the Shoe Factory in Portsmouth, Ohio.</p>
  14179.  
  14180.  
  14181.  
  14182. <p>I lost my jobs due to imports and they sent me to a vocational school and told me that I could either take welding or electrical work. Well, I decided to take the electrical work and as soon as I finished electrical work, and I was working at a place called Osco in town, and I was an electrician there for a couple years. And then I went out to the, what we call the A Plant, which is the Portmouth Gas Diffusion plant in, it&#8217;s located in Piketon, Ohio. It&#8217;s the largest facility in the world. It has two of the largest buildings in the world, excuse me. And sometimes some of the workers you wouldn&#8217;t see &#8217;em for. The place is so huge and they had different shifts and sometimes you wouldn&#8217;t see these workers for a year or more, and sometimes you never saw the same worker ever.</p>
  14183.  
  14184.  
  14185.  
  14186. <p>But when I lost my job and went out there, I thought I was pretty lucky to hand this job. It was the highest paying job I ever had in my life. And for some reason they would say, you won&#8217;t get as much radiation here as if you would get on a plane and you would fly. So I never thought about anything about radiation, and the plant was called at that time, from 1953 to 1985, it was called With Your Atomic. So I thought they made Goodyear tar and rubber for tires because we had a place in town that had Goodyear tires that they sold. So I felt like it was a safe place to work. They gave me hard hats and safety glasses. They were always watching us to see if we had &#8217;em on. And I thought, man, isn&#8217;t this the safest place I ever worked at?</p>
  14187.  
  14188.  
  14189.  
  14190. <p>Well, I was hired in 1980. I didn&#8217;t know in 1980 until I started reading some of the newspaper clippings back. I had kind of forgot about it. But in 1980 when they hired me, they had 111 significant radioactive releases. I didn&#8217;t even know anything about those releases in 1980, but they never had any alarms. The alarms never went off for the workers or the community. So I didn&#8217;t know anything about all these releases, but I was only there from 1980 to 83 before I started really getting sick. Had to come off work for a while and I was a healthy worker. This facility hired only healthy workers. They&#8217;ve been in production since 1952 until 2001, and were still not for sure if they&#8217;re producing anything now or not because it&#8217;s such a secret. This facility was a DOE, which is a Department of Energy, but in the background hidden. We were a DOD facility for nuclear weapons.</p>
  14191.  
  14192.  
  14193.  
  14194. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14195.  
  14196.  
  14197.  
  14198. <p>All right, welcome everyone to another episode of Working People, a podcast about the lives, jobs, dreams, and struggles of the working class today. Brought to you in partnership within these Times magazine and the Real News Network produced by Jules Taylor and made possible by the support of listeners like You Working People is a proud member of the Labor Radio Podcast Network. So if you&#8217;re hungry for more worker and labor focus shows like ours, follow the link in the show notes and go check out the other great shows in our network. There are so many, and please support the work that we&#8217;re doing here at Working People because we can&#8217;t keep going without you. Share our episodes with your coworkers, your family members. Leave positive reviews of the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and become a paid monthly subscriber on Patreon for just five bucks a month to unlock all the great bonus episodes that we publish exclusively for our patrons.</p>
  14199.  
  14200.  
  14201.  
  14202. <p>And please support the work that we do with The Real News Network by going to the real news.com/donate, especially if you want to see more reporting from the front lines of struggle around the US and across the world. My name is Maximilian Alvarez and I am really honored to be the call today with the one and only Vina Colley. And I promise you guys, you want to sit down and buckle in because we&#8217;ve got a really important conversation for y&#8217;all today. As you guys know and have been hearing from our recent episodes, there&#8217;s something really happening here with this coalition that has formed out of the wreckage of East Palestine, Ohio. And we have been there working with residents, working with unions, environmental groups and so on and so forth to try to bring people together to address the ongoing horror show that residents of East Palestine, Ohio are living through.</p>
  14203.  
  14204.  
  14205.  
  14206. <p>After Norfolk Southern&#8217;s bomb train derailed and was five cars worth of toxic vinyl chloride were vented and burned in and around East Palestine around February 3rd, 2023. And it was actually through the work that we&#8217;ve been doing there in East Palestine that I connected with Vina. And so I&#8217;m going to go into a little bit of detail here to explain that. So if you guys will forgive me, the intro will be a little long, but I promise it&#8217;ll be worth it, right? Because as you guys have heard from the compilation episode that we put out from the conference that we held in East Palestine a few weeks ago, right? I mean, there was a truly incredible gathering that happened there a few weeks back. And Vina was one of the folks who was there with us. And as I wrote in a recent piece for the Nation Magazine, I gathered in East Palestine with those who answered the call to take charge of long, neglected efforts to get the care remediation and justice, these forgotten residents desperately need a call put out by the newly formed Justice for East Palestine Residents and Workers Coalition.</p>
  14207.  
  14208.  
  14209.  
  14210. <p>This alliance includes East Palestine residents, railroad workers, residents of other sacrifice zones like Piketon in Portsmouth, Ohio, people living near other rail lines, labor union representatives, environmental justice organizations, striking journalists and non striking journalists, socialists, Trump voters, non voters, and so many more. We heard and saw firsthand that even though the derailment has faded from mainstream media headlines, east Palestine is not okay. And in many respects, life has gotten worse for the residents there. These people have been literally poisoned by corporate greed exposed to toxins that continue to do irreparable damage to their bodies and their community. Many are still sick, still waiting for answers and aid from Norfolk Southern and the government still fighting not to be forgotten. We discussed how to pressure Biden to invoke the Stafford Act, to mobilize and expedite federal FEMA assistance to residents near the crash site in the surrounding area, and how to pressure his administration to issue a disaster declaration for East Palestine, which would secure immediate government funded healthcare for residents whose ailments and medical bills are piling up.</p>
  14211.  
  14212.  
  14213.  
  14214. <p>But what was most powerful about the gathering was seeing this diverse working class coalition of capitalism&#8217;s forgotten victims sitting together and discussing the basic struggles, hardships, and enemies we have in common. Everyone shared their own firsthand accounts of the many ways that this country is falling apart at the seams buckling under the weight of more than 40 years of corporate dominance, deregulation, disinvestment, and the systematic devaluing of labor and life itself. We all showed our scars to each other and we realized we&#8217;re all fighting off the tentacles of the same corporate monsters, corporate politicians, and Wall Street vampires. Anyone who has experienced tragedy in this country or at the hands of this country knows how quickly this country forgets its victims. When will we rise together to say we will be forgotten no more? So that is the question that we asked ourselves in East Palestine on March 23rd, 2024.</p>
  14215.  
  14216.  
  14217.  
  14218. <p>And I believe we answered that question by the very fact of being there physically together in that room at the East Palestine Country Club. The answer is now, now is the time to rise together. No one else is coming to save us, and we do not have any more time to waste. And one of the many incredible human beings standing in that room with me and residents of East Palestine was Vina Colley. And like I said, I could not be more honored to be chatting with Vina on today&#8217;s episode. Now it&#8217;s going to become clear to you guys as this episode goes on, why it was so powerful for Vina herself to be at that gathering in East Palestine. But if you&#8217;ll allow me, I want to give you some more context here by way of reading at length some passages from a really great piece by Kevin Williams that was published in Belt Magazine in October of 2020.</p>
  14219.  
  14220.  
  14221.  
  14222. <p>And this piece is called The Poisonous Legacy of Portsmouth&#8217;s Gaseous Diffusion Plant. And we&#8217;re going to link to it in the show notes. So in this piece, Kevin writes Vina Collie, a slight woman with a bob of thick blonde hair climbs into her white Ford Explorer. Collie is 74, and for nearly 40 years, she&#8217;s been fighting the Portsmouth gaseous diffusion plant, known locally as the A plant or ports. Her home library holds scores of totes filled with neatly labeled documents, a paper trail that exposes what she sees as portsmouth&#8217;s, darkest and most egregious secrets. The plant nestled on the edge of Ohio&#8217;s Appalachia is just a few minutes drive from Pike County, a long hour south of Columbus and 90 minutes east of Cincinnati. It was built during the Cold War in 1952 to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons in the US Department of Energy&#8217;s Atomic Energy Program.</p>
  14223.  
  14224.  
  14225.  
  14226. <p>Gaseous diffusion is basically a process of enriching uranium through a series of feeds and cascades. This particular process has since fallen out of favor as technological advances have made the process obsolete. The plant stopped enriching uranium by diffusion in 2001, and in 2007, a portion of the facility was adapted into the American centrifuge plant, but in its prime, gaseous diffusion was a big deal for Pike County. It was also Ali argues a serious threat. Vina Colli was Aaron Brockovich before Aaron Brockovich. By the time Brockovich later played famously by Julia Roberts in the movie of the same name was building her successful case against Pacific Gas and Electric in California in 1993, Collie had already been battling the A plant for a decade. She alleges the plant has duped area residence for years about the health dangers of its processes, and that the government has created an impossible to navigate claim system.</p>
  14227.  
  14228.  
  14229.  
  14230. <p>In response, Collie has become an unlikely citizen scientist spending a lifetime researching and documenting ports and its sins. Collie was hired as an electrician at the facility in 1980 and worked there for three years. I was exposed to everything we were cleaning off radioactive equipment that we did not know was radioactive. They never told us. Collie told me then she said her hair started falling out. She developed rashes. I got really sick and went to the hospital not knowing that it was my job causing me all these problems. I had big tumors in the four decades since colleagues faced a range of health problems including chronic bronchitis, tumors and pulmonary edema. Collie is not alone around Pike and Scioto counties. The stories flow as freely as the creeks. A child who died of leukemia, a whole family fell by cancer, an uncle with unusual tumors on his neck, a cousin with a stillborn baby, someone with kidney issues, and on and on.</p>
  14231.  
  14232.  
  14233.  
  14234. <p>Portsmouth&#8217;s Hidden Legacy has created a cohort of citizen scientists, homegrown atomic brockovich&#8217;s and residents who reel off statistics about isotope half lives, transera, Neptune and beryllium, like people elsewhere might talk about the weather or fishing. Pike County is one of the state&#8217;s most impoverished with 20% of the population living below the poverty line. According to 2000 nineteen&#8217;s Ohio poverty report, neighboring Scioto County is in even worse shape. With 23% living in poverty, the economics of the region have barely budged. In half a century, thousands of workers, a mix of contractors and employees work at the A plan, one of the only chances for a decent income. A recent hiring notice for a plant security specialist advertised a salary starting in the mid fifties, double the per capita median. Other jobs like a junior radiation protection technician require only a high school diploma and can make $19 an hour to start gradually going up to $36 an hour.</p>
  14235.  
  14236.  
  14237.  
  14238. <p>But for decades, Collie says the perils of these high paying jobs were kept hidden. And those are the people Collie has devoted her life to trying to help. So that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re here to talk about. And again, now you guys know why it is such an honor to not only be talking to Vina and for us to be listening to her, but why it was so powerful and so important to have Vina there with us in that room in East Palestine a few weeks ago. So with all of that upfront, let&#8217;s go ahead and dive in. Vina, I got so many things I want to talk to you about, and I know there&#8217;s, we could talk for hours, so if we need to do this in multiple parts, we will. But we gave folks as much context as we could upfront to understand why we&#8217;re here talking, how it&#8217;s connected to all the other things we&#8217;ve been covering on this show, all the things that we&#8217;re trying to bring together in East Palestine. And I just really want people to know you and learn from you, and I want to learn from you and your struggle. But before we even get there, before we talk about all the horrific stuff that you have and your community have been through over the past four decades, let&#8217;s go back to just yeah, before. So you said you were born in Portsmouth and that&#8217;s where you grew up, correct?</p>
  14239.  
  14240.  
  14241.  
  14242. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14243.  
  14244.  
  14245.  
  14246. <p>Yes. And Portsmouth is about 20 some miles from pi.</p>
  14247.  
  14248.  
  14249.  
  14250. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14251.  
  14252.  
  14253.  
  14254. <p>So tell me a little bit about that. What was it like growing up in your childhood in that part of the country when yeah, the Cold Wars going on, these nuclear plants are seen as the future and also the way that we&#8217;re going to defeat the Soviet. So that&#8217;s happening in the background, but you&#8217;re also a kid living your life. So just yeah, tell us a little more about what that was like, where you grew up, if you had a big family, what kind of kid you were and what you would do for fun.</p>
  14255.  
  14256.  
  14257.  
  14258. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14259.  
  14260.  
  14261.  
  14262. <p>I had four brothers. One passed away with a small cell cancer, but we lived on front street next to the river. We are south of Columbus, about a hundred miles and right on the borderline of Kentucky and Ohio. And I grew up right on the river on front Street. We went out and played, kicked the can and did all the normal things the kids did. My dad played music and when mom and dad both worked and I had the four younger brothers, mine was the oldest, so I did a lot of babysitting. But we used to go down by the bridge and we would have bonfires and we would bake potatoes and play. And then in summertime we would play ball with softball or baseball. I had a brother who was really good in baseball. I mean, he was a good pitcher and a catcher, and he&#8217;s the one who died of small cell cancer.</p>
  14263.  
  14264.  
  14265.  
  14266. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14267.  
  14268.  
  14269.  
  14270. <p>I&#8217;m so sorry for your loss, vna, and I mean that goes for your family, your friends, your community. I can&#8217;t communicate enough how sorry I am for everything that you have lost, but as well can&#8217;t communicate to you just how inspired I am by your fight and your continued dedication to your community and to justice. And I think all of us are feeling really exhausted and scared most of the time these days. And just to know that you&#8217;ve been fighting through this stuff for this long really kind of gives us hope that we can do it too. And again, we we&#8217;re going to get into all that soon, but I just love hearing this and love thinking about a time before all this awfulness when you&#8217;re running around and playing with your friends, playing with your siblings, looking back on that time, does it feel like it was a genuinely sort of different time in America? Folks are always saying, or do you think that that&#8217;s more just nostalgia talking and people are really looking fondly upon their own childhoods? I guess I&#8217;m just curious what the scene was like in those decades when you were growing up.</p>
  14271.  
  14272.  
  14273.  
  14274. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14275.  
  14276.  
  14277.  
  14278. <p>It was different because we didn&#8217;t sit around and play on our cell phones. We were always outside playing all kinds of games and hardly we ever watch tv. And then you only had the three channels and the TV wasn&#8217;t killing us full of poison like they do now. All the lies they want to and keep everyone at the edge of their seats, fighting family and friends over all this political stuff. We didn&#8217;t do all that back then. We had good times. I mean, we would slate. There was a big wall, a flood wall. We would take a cardboard up there and we would use it as a sled and just as many fun things. And we&#8217;d play jacks and hopscotch and we were always busy. We were always happy. And we would go to the playgrounds and we didn&#8217;t have all this turmoil that we had now, right now, it&#8217;s hard to even talk to a family member of the politics, especially if you&#8217;re a Democrat or a Republican. They have divided the families here over all this political crat is what I call it,</p>
  14279.  
  14280.  
  14281.  
  14282. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14283.  
  14284.  
  14285.  
  14286. <p>Preach sister. I mean, I think that&#8217;s exactly what it is. And that&#8217;s what I was talking to Chris Albright and other East Palestine residents when I was there. I was like, all right, man, I&#8217;m the crazy socialist that Fox keeps telling you as the enemy. You guys are the white working class Trump voters that I&#8217;m told are the enemy. And yet we&#8217;re all just here as people trying to not get poisoned by corporations trying to raise our families, trying to make a living. And the ways that corporate media especially and our politicians of course, and the ways that they have managed to convince so many of us that half the country is our enemy, is just a really sad thing to behold. But again, it&#8217;s like just by being there in East Palestine with you and with everyone else there and seeing that all wash away, it does give me hope that we can cut through that crap. But that toxic stuff has been flowing through the air vents of our culture for decades, and it&#8217;s not going to be easy to just turn the clock back on that.</p>
  14287.  
  14288.  
  14289.  
  14290. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14291.  
  14292.  
  14293.  
  14294. <p>That&#8217;s true. It&#8217;s just really hard. We have to look forward. We have to get rid of all the media people that are going out, all these lies. I know Fox News, I&#8217;ve watched Fox News, CNN and NBNS. I watch all of &#8217;em. And to me, Fox has told so many lies to the families, but I can&#8217;t even watch it anymore. And of course they were going to be sued, but they can&#8217;t be sued because they claim they&#8217;re an entertainment entertainment show, not a news site. So to me, that&#8217;s just so ridiculous. I mean, if you want to report the news, you should report the news. People like you who are trying to get the real facts out, that&#8217;s helpful. That&#8217;s not pitting any of us against each other, but what you&#8217;re talking about is the truth. It&#8217;s about human life and what they&#8217;ve done to all of us. These big corporations, they don&#8217;t care. They don&#8217;t care about if you&#8217;re sick or if your family members are dying. They just want that money. They just don&#8217;t care. And this facility here in isn&#8217;t any different. We paid good jobs, had good money. It was such a secret that they would tell the workers, if you go into a beauty shop or a barber shop, you better not talk about it out here because some of these beauticians and barbers may be a secret agents. So we grew up in a lot of secrecy here in this town. You&#8217;re not allowed to talk about what goes on at the A plant.</p>
  14295.  
  14296.  
  14297.  
  14298. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14299.  
  14300.  
  14301.  
  14302. <p>Wow. Wow. Let&#8217;s talk about that a little more. I wanted to ask, when you were growing up, I mean it sounds like a plant was still like the place to go to get that good paying middle class job. Can you tell us a little more about your memories before you ever started working there? The influence that the Portsmouth gaseous diffusion plant had on the community, the role it played in town and yeah, other details like that. Even just this sort of culture of secrecy where you&#8217;re not allowed, they&#8217;re not supposed to talk about it. That&#8217;s pretty creepy.</p>
  14303.  
  14304.  
  14305.  
  14306. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14307.  
  14308.  
  14309.  
  14310. <p>Some of the workers back in those times, which it started in 1952, and I think production started in 53. And by 1957, there was five workers that were in the hospital that were sick and dying from the plant. And the health department in the state of Ohio knew it because the union had wrote letters about this, but they turned their back on &#8217;em all because of the jobs down here. And workers, when they used to come home, they would take their food off because they didn&#8217;t want to carry any contamination into their homes. But I didn&#8217;t know any of that when I was that young. But as I talked to people from all this research, they told me that I have a friend Dorothy Mead, who just passed away, and her husband, Gary Mead, she said that he used to come home and tell her not to let the kids touch his shoes or his work boots, but he didn&#8217;t think he was getting sick from the plant. And she kept trying to get him to quit, but he didn&#8217;t want to quit because he didn&#8217;t think it was his job. So about the third or fourth trip to the hospital, he told his wife, he said, Dorothy, I think you&#8217;re right. And it is my job making me sick, and once I get out of the hospital this time, I&#8217;m not going back. Well, he wasn&#8217;t able to go back because he died of leukemia. He actually bled the death.</p>
  14311.  
  14312.  
  14313.  
  14314. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14315.  
  14316.  
  14317.  
  14318. <p>Jesus.</p>
  14319.  
  14320.  
  14321.  
  14322. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14323.  
  14324.  
  14325.  
  14326. <p>So growing up around here, they had a place where you buy tires and it&#8217;s a Goodyear Tire and rubber. And so a lot of us in the community thought that&#8217;s what they made was Goodyear Tire and Rubbers out there. So they have spatial tires that you can come in and buy on discount and everything was called Goodyear around here. So we had no idea. Most of us had no idea that it was a weapons plant all these years, not something that they made tires for. Goodyear and the community, if you ask &#8217;em any questions about the plant, they wouldn&#8217;t talk about it. So we&#8217;re not allowed to talk about it. What goes on out there is a secret. So it&#8217;s pretty much a town that was, they went to work, they mind their own business, and they didn&#8217;t talk about the A plant because they made good money there and they weren&#8217;t allowed to talk about it. They could lose their jobs if they did.</p>
  14327.  
  14328.  
  14329.  
  14330. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14331.  
  14332.  
  14333.  
  14334. <p>Wow. And do you recall, again, because like you said, you didn&#8217;t even know what was going on at that plant until much later. But I guess, do you have any memories from that era of how this country was talking about nuclear energy and nuclear plants? And I guess for folks in my generation who have only read about it in books, did it feel like this was an industry that people were excited to welcome into their communities and be a part of as this kind of nationalist project? I guess, what do you remember about the kind of culture around nuclear energy at that time?</p>
  14335.  
  14336.  
  14337.  
  14338. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14339.  
  14340.  
  14341.  
  14342. <p>I don&#8217;t know too much about nuclear energy, but I know about patriotism. Everyone thought it was their duty to work out there, and they felt lucky that they could be part of this energy from there. But I don&#8217;t think anyone really realized that they were producing nuclear weapons at Python. Maybe some of the workers who understood it better, but the community really didn&#8217;t know. I didn&#8217;t know until after I got sick and started gathering all these documents. And that&#8217;s how I really found out in 1978 was such a secret out there. The workers had dropped a cylinder and it ruptured in 21,125 pounds of this uan Hexa fluoride was released into the environment and the water, but it happened during a snow season, so they were able to throw some of the snow on the cylinder and stop it. But there was a lawsuit filed by the community.</p>
  14343.  
  14344.  
  14345.  
  14346. <p>It took 21 years to settle, and that incident was compared to Three Mile Island. Until this day, no one has ever been told other than if I put it on my Facebook, because if I find documents, I did have a webpage, but they hacked me so bad that I couldn&#8217;t keep a webpage up. But I&#8217;ve been able to keep a Facebook up, and if anybody ever wants to know anything about Piketon, they can look up my Facebook vna, VINA, Colley, C-O-L-L-E-Y, because no one can stop me from posting what I find. But this incident, like I said, compared to Three Mile Island, and we&#8217;ve not been told today that we had this incident or have we been, were studied for that incident. And when I got hired, and like I said, in 1980, they had 111 releases and I didn&#8217;t know it until it all came out in the paper and researched.</p>
  14347.  
  14348.  
  14349.  
  14350. <p>And I helped the Dayton Daily move. I worked with them for almost two years on the story, and they came out with all of the releases in the paper. And so we didn&#8217;t get the date and paper here. So if you didn&#8217;t get the date and paper, people still don&#8217;t know here. People still don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going on at that plant. Wow. We heard they wanted to start the centrifuge up and they did a test run in November, but we don&#8217;t know because it&#8217;s a secret. We don&#8217;t know if they&#8217;re still producing nuclear weapons. We don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going on there, but there&#8217;s been so many releases that to remember that the Portsmouth facility is the largest facility in the world. We were supposed to be producing high assay uranium here for weapons, grade material, the highest assay that you could do. But in the meantime, what the workers didn&#8217;t know, and what I didn&#8217;t know is they were bringing Transics waste into this facility and processing it from West Valley, New York and West Valley New York ended up being, the workers thought it was a uranium extraction plant and it wind up being a plutonium extraction plant.</p>
  14351.  
  14352.  
  14353.  
  14354. <p>So they were sending all this stuff here to pipe then, and we were processing it and being exposed to things like titanium n Andia, bium, Marium C, them, you name it, we were being exposed to it without our knowledge, and we were not dressed, dressed to keep this stuff safe. Like they use asthmatic suits now, but I don&#8217;t know if they use it all the time, but they do dress the workers up in cosmetic suits. We were dressed in nothing. And when I complained about the areas being contaminated cut, because I was cleaning electric equipment with trichlorethylene and they had this oil on electrical components, and I asked what it was, and I just said it was just oil, just ordinary oil. And then when we get done, we had buckets of this stuff, we would dump it down the drains. So when I got sick in 83 and my doctor asked me what I was working in, he told me to go back and tell them to suit me up and to survey the area that I work in.</p>
  14355.  
  14356.  
  14357.  
  14358. <p>So I kept breaking out in rashes, and every time they put me on certain jobs and they come back and say, well, you are better than the instruments that we have out here to pick up anything. And so they had to put me on different jobs and my boss had to keep me with him. And so in 84, 85, I&#8217;m working and they put me on this electric equipment outside and I could see these little gray particles flying around. And I&#8217;m pretty scared because I got pulled off this job because of my breaking out. And what they didn&#8217;t tell me that this PCB oil was radioactive oil that was leaking all over the process, building every process building. Not only was it oil, but it was some of the product that they were producing. So once they put me outside and taken off these ceramic things off of electrical equipment and I could see these grape articles, and I put a mask around my mouth and a hanky, and I hurried up and took all those components out and called my boss and told him I was done.</p>
  14359.  
  14360.  
  14361.  
  14362. <p>So he came and got me in a golf cart and he took me up in a building, the 3 33 building, which this is one of the buildings they&#8217;re getting ready to decommission him real soon and put it in these dump cells. But he took me up there on the second floor, we&#8217;d been in this golf cart, and I said, where are we going? He said, well, there was a radiation alarm that went off. We&#8217;re going to go check it out and reset it. And before we could get halfway through that building, all this gray stuff come following us as fast as he turned around and took me back on the elevator. And we went down and I said, what just happened? I said, what was that stuff? He said, well, it wasn&#8217;t nothing. It was just a cloud of smoke. It was nothing. Well, I winded up getting really, really sick again and had to go to Dr. White and he did apathy on my throat.</p>
  14363.  
  14364.  
  14365.  
  14366. <p>And at the same time a guy named Mike who actually won a lawsuit against the plant in another one named Jean Farrell. And my friend Owen Thompson, we wind up going to Dr. White here in Portsmouth, and he sent us down to Cincinnati to see a Dr. Michael Kelly, who was an occupational health and safety doctor, which I went there two weeks after this gray stuff come flying at us. And I had two point 12 fluorides in my urinalysis. And one of the products they had out here is draining hexa fluorides, and they released a lot of fluorides. And so he said, I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going on out there, but you don&#8217;t need to go back to work. So they put me off on leave in 85, and of course found a way to take me off of the workers&#8217; comp in 87 because they sent me to a Dr. George Esman in Portsmouth, Ohio, and he felt like there was nothing he could do for him. They wouldn&#8217;t pay him to examine me. And at the same time, my stomach is swelling and getting big. And he said that he&#8217;d not pay me to check you out. And so they took me off of workers&#8217; comp in 87, and once they took me off of workers&#8217; comp, the plant laid me off and kept me from getting 10 years then, but of course could you&#8217;re best at our pensions at five years, and they still cheated me out for five year pension. And so by 88,</p>
  14367.  
  14368.  
  14369.  
  14370. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14371.  
  14372.  
  14373.  
  14374. <p>Well, if I can hop in there just because I want to take a quick half step back to make sure that listeners are getting that kind of panoramic view of what you were seeing and going through while you were working there. Because even just the image you were talking about, about being on that golf cart with a manager driving through this massive facility and then seeing this ghostly toxic cloud coming at you and then turning around and saying, okay, job&#8217;s done. That is just the hairs on my neck are standing up thinking about it, especially knowing what we know now about what was going on at that plant. But I want to just like you were saying before that you and so many others in the community, so many people working there still didn&#8217;t fully know what was going on there. So I was wondering if you could just sort of take us back to that time working there when you started there, what you remember as a worker going into that facility, the kind of things you were being asked to do on this show to, we talk to people in the service industry, healthcare workers, teachers, and we always love to just talk what is a typical day, week?</p>
  14375.  
  14376.  
  14377.  
  14378. <p>What are the things that you as a working person are dealing with on the job? Could you just tell us a little more about that, your memories of starting to work there, how big the facility was, what you were doing? Just give us that worker&#8217;s eye view of your time working there before you started getting sick and eventually had to leave.</p>
  14379.  
  14380.  
  14381.  
  14382. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14383.  
  14384.  
  14385.  
  14386. <p>Actually, I was a healthy worker. I even had to go back to my doctor and they ran spatial blood work. I was so healthy, but that&#8217;s what they do. They hard, I healthiest workers because it takes us longer to get sick. But I had nothing wrong with me whatsoever. I had pretty good healthy genes and I would rewind motors. I did conduit. I worked on relays, but they hired me in as a second class electrician, and it was a apprentice experiment where they put us on all the jobs. So I was in every building on plant side and we&#8217;re talking, there&#8217;s 3,600 or 3,800 acres, and there&#8217;s all kind of buildings. They had all kind, they had two or three incinerators.</p>
  14387.  
  14388.  
  14389.  
  14390. <p>They would even get this black stuff from the steam plant on these people&#8217;s homes and workers would have to go out there and clean off their homes from the inside and out. And they did that when Goodyear was there, but they quit doing it after Goodyear sold out. But the workers were janitors. We&#8217;d go out there and we wore coveralls, just regular coveralls, and they started giving us, buying us boots to work at the plant with. And so we didn&#8217;t have to take them home, wear &#8217;em home. And so I thought, man, I never worked in a place that was so safe to work or had safety glasses. They stayed on me. They give us a pair of boots so we wouldn&#8217;t take our boots home in case we stepped in some type of contamination. Of course, they never talked about radiation being at the plant.</p>
  14391.  
  14392.  
  14393.  
  14394. <p>They actually said you would get more radiation by flying in a plane than working here. So I didn&#8217;t really know what radiation was at that time, other than taking X-rays or something like that. But for these people, I mean, they&#8217;re not human. They just let you come in and clean up all this radioactive material. And maybe not all the bosses knew, but I believe some of &#8217;em did. And actually there&#8217;s about 10 or 12 safety guys who wrote the safety for the plant, all wind up dying of cancer. And Chris, I didn&#8217;t know all this. And I worked on relays and I&#8217;D in conduit and I&#8217;d go in these buildings and I would see a sign saying, you&#8217;re in a radioactive contaminated area. And I said, where&#8217;s this area at? And they said, well, I was taped off over there. Don&#8217;t walk through the tape.</p>
  14395.  
  14396.  
  14397.  
  14398. <p>So they made you feel like the radiation, if they had anything there, it would be any contamination. It was within this yellow tape line. Well, once I called, my life changed at 83, I wrote a grievance to the Department of Labor, told them that I felt like they were more than 30 workers being exposed to radiation, but I really didn&#8217;t know what I was talking about. But actually down the road, I did know what I was talking about then, but I didn&#8217;t know. And then when I got sick in 85, the Department of Energy sent people to my house and they asked me the same questions over and over, over, and mainly it was about that oil. So I told my husband, I said, it made me feel like I know something that I don&#8217;t know. I said, they asked me the same questions about that oil in the trichlorethylene that I was cleaning with.</p>
  14399.  
  14400.  
  14401.  
  14402. <p>And I said, there&#8217;s got to be something more to this. So when I started digging into the records, I found out there was a congression. Our union in 1980 went to Washington dc. They stormed Senator Gwen office over the health and safety issues, and a guy named Bob Alvarez opened up his door to these workers. So they asked for a full investigation. And here I&#8217;m getting hired, and I know nothing about this until about 86 when I found out the union did that. But Clan&#8217;s office promised to help these workers and do an investigation. And when they came back to work, all they got was harassment to workers. And it was the largest workers in the world that went to DC and Storm Senator Glenn&#8217;s office over health and safety, radiation and safety violations. I think they had 576 violations at that time. Wow. And so Denny Bluefield, I have to say is one of my heroes.</p>
  14403.  
  14404.  
  14405.  
  14406. <p>He was the president of the union. He just died a few months back with cancer, but he took that union up there, tried to get us help, and all we got he got was harassment. So of course he was no longer the union president, he still worked there, but this is what they do. Anyone who complains about health and safety, they harass you. They have these red phones in the building and they said, if you see this oil, they had a concrete around the equipment, but if you see oil coming on the floor, you take this red bone and you call OSHA or the Coast Guard, I can&#8217;t remember which it was, it might&#8217;ve been the Coast Guards and let them know. But what happens when you use them little red bones, you are calling directly into the plant to the DOE office on site.</p>
  14407.  
  14408.  
  14409.  
  14410. <p>And so they know automatically who the workers are that are starting to ask questions. When I&#8217;ve been harassed, I&#8217;ve been threatened. They tried to get, my daughter tried to get me out one morning saying that my daughter had been in a car wreck at four o&#8217;clock in the morning. And so I went back and I checked in her room and she was in there. I&#8217;ve had some of the workers here, chick Lawson, whose house has got radioactive material in his house. He told me and my husband before he passed in 2018, that the plant had a meeting on site and his friend attended this meeting and that they want to find a way to get rid of me.</p>
  14411.  
  14412.  
  14413.  
  14414. <p>So I mean, this is in 2022, they&#8217;re still wanting to try to get rid of me. And one of the union workers wrote in one of the Ian papers saying if I was her husband, I would take out extra insurance on her. And I&#8217;ve had my wheel make tires. Well, the bolt had been taken off of one of the tires, and luckily it was when it wobbled, I thought I had a flat tire and I stopped and checked it, but it had no bolts on that tire. And so I got shunned in the community a lot people call thinking I&#8217;m a troublemaker, trying to shut down a plant, and I didn&#8217;t know what I was talking about. And as I researched and found out, we had piton that pipe them in the X 7 0 5 area, the E area where there&#8217;s an incinerator next to the building, and these workers were working an experimental job with piton.</p>
  14415.  
  14416.  
  14417.  
  14418. <p>They got so contaminated. Mr. Salisbury told me that he had colon cancer and they got so contaminated, they sent him to Oakridge for several weeks to get their body counts down. So you don&#8217;t hear these kind of stories because the workers, you know how men are, they go to work, they mind their own business and they go home. And so when they get home, they&#8217;re not supposed to tell their families anything about their jobs. And these workers told me that they had to get their body counts down because they worked in experimental capon at the site. When the compensation bill came down in 1993 in a public meeting, I told under an affidavit, I told them in 93 that they had plutonium at the site. So it&#8217;s in an affidavit and it&#8217;s in their documents that I told them in 93, they had plutonium. Of course, a lot of the workers, some of the workers knew they&#8217;ve had it since 1953 ever since they did the first production.</p>
  14419.  
  14420.  
  14421.  
  14422. <p>But it was 1999 that I was working with a lady named Mary Bird Davis with the institution of uranium wife. And she read the documents and she understood them, and she got a call and said, we&#8217;re getting ready to break a story about Paducah, Kentucky having Paton at the site. And she said, well, we had Patton at pipe. And she called me up and she said, viol. She said, I just got a call from reporter down in Lake Kentucky and they&#8217;re going to break the story in the morning about Theon at Tyson. And she said, the workers, three workers at Paducah must have filed a lawsuit and someone leaked it to the media and that&#8217;s how it got out. And so they knew that I always had mentioned the Paton at Python. So when they called Mary, she called me and she said, they&#8217;re going to break the story first thing in the morning one.</p>
  14423.  
  14424.  
  14425.  
  14426. <p>And I said, great, Mary. And she said, but the problem is they gave me credit and not you. I said, cares, you have a national group that you work with and who cares as long as the story gets out about the Paton? And so they broke the story the next day, and it was at the same time as Paducah. And they did one story about Paducah and Portsmouth breaking this story simultaneously. And so when the story broke, they didn&#8217;t want to put, they claimed that Piketon had one cylinder that came through that system that contaminated the plant with Piton. It was not a lie. And they down downplayed us. And then I pushed our representatives, I want to say thank you for Ted Strickland at that time, who was a Democrat and then joined the Barnovich up. He was a Republican up in Columbus. They all pushed, and especially Ted, he pushed to get us in that compensation bill.</p>
  14427.  
  14428.  
  14429.  
  14430. <p>And this compensation bill is called PEOI, CPA A, the Energy Employee Compensation Act. And they named 22 cancers in this bill. And if you have one of 22 cancers in this bill, you automatically get compensated for your cancers. And the bill was anywhere from 150,000 to 400,000. Well, they didn&#8217;t want to put ping in it, but we got &#8217;em in there. And so we wind up being an SEC site, which means a spatial exposure cohort. And the reason they didn&#8217;t test us when we were getting tested all the time, I know they did a lot of tests on me, but some of the guys went years before they got a urine test. And in order to get a good test, you would have to take a test in the morning when you came and when you left, but they never did. They might&#8217;ve given one urine test.</p>
  14431.  
  14432.  
  14433.  
  14434. <p>Now, one thing that they made a mistake on with me was they put us in these in vivos because back in the seventies and eighties, women really didn&#8217;t work at the plant. So they put me in vivo. And when they did that, I didn&#8217;t get the records until just a few years ago that it shows that I have Neptune and a NEP magnesium and caesium in my lungs, and they knew and they never told me. So I&#8217;ve had my records locked up a few times and had to get &#8217;em unlocked, and each time I get &#8217;em unlocked, I get something in my records that I didn&#8217;t get before, and they eventually sent me these records on these three in vivos. And what they do, they measure your weight, they measure your neck, and then you lay in this machine like laying in an MRI, and it counts about body count of all of this radioactive radioactivity in your body, and Neptune is radioactivity and Maia is a radioactivity.</p>
  14435.  
  14436.  
  14437.  
  14438. <p>And so my counts were going up each year that they did it. They did it from 82 to 85 and one thing they check your weight. I was always like 1 39 weight anymore, but I went to 235 pounds three months. I swelled up like a big balloon and so been hard still getting weight off. At least I&#8217;m down 30 or 40 more pounds, but it doesn&#8217;t come off of me. I think the thyroid and the radioactive material caused my immune system to do a lot of things to my metabolism. And the government has admitted that they gave me chronic RY disease. It&#8217;s a lung disease, it&#8217;s not curable. They have omitted that I have neuropathy. They have omitted that I have congested heart failure. They have admitted I have digital heart failure, nerve damage from the neuropathy. I have lung nodules just like many of these workers have, and I&#8217;ve had four tumors removed.</p>
  14439.  
  14440.  
  14441.  
  14442. <p>Total hysterectomy. I had a tumor removed from the back of my neck. Three were in my ovaries. And so at the age of 32, 33 is when I had to have a total hysterectomy. They removed the three tumors and later I had the tumor in the back of my neck and it was, we removed and we did, I don&#8217;t know if you knew Dr. Rosa bat from Canada, but she had my tumor froze and sent it to a doctor up in Canada to have it analyzed. But at that time, the doctor was checking the Batton and he didn&#8217;t think that the gas acid diffusion plant had batton in it because we weren&#8217;t supposed to. So he sent my tumor on a shelf and then he got confiscated with his work. So I don&#8217;t know where that tumor went. It&#8217;s like a nightmare. Then in the process of Dr. Rosa Patel was a nun and she was very knowledgeable on cancers and radiation. Then she passed away a few years back. She did a lot of work on, I met her through the Depleted Uranium Group when Gulf War.</p>
  14443.  
  14444.  
  14445.  
  14446. <p>They used armor piercing bullets and they even shot at a tank. And we have a kid here in McDermott that was in that tank and got burned up, and the government lied to his family about that. His name was Tony Applegate. He went to school with my kid, but he was in one of those tanks that was shot with these bullets. And eventually Senator Declan got the records for Tony&#8217;s family and they had to tell them the truth. He wasn&#8217;t burned up in the tank. The stories just go on and on about these communities and what you have to go through. My brother-in-Law, he worked at the plant. He had a wooden leg and he got his leg contaminated and they had to buy him a new leg. And so he had these nodules like I have, and the nodules, something happened and it went in into lymph notes and he got cancer and he died a horrible death, but he had cancer.</p>
  14447.  
  14448.  
  14449.  
  14450. <p>He&#8217;d give his wife cancer. His son Troy just passed away three or four months ago that worked at the plant. He had kidney cancer. But you just don&#8217;t understand the impact that these places do to families and they don&#8217;t really care. But it was a big deal in 99 because they didn&#8217;t compensate a lot of workers. But the problem is there&#8217;s a lot of workers and a lot of survivors out here right now fighting for the compensation for their families. We are not supposed to be dosed and dose means calculation of the chemicals that&#8217;s in your body and the job you was on. Well, they can&#8217;t do that to us because they destroy the record. Guess what? They are dosing families who don&#8217;t know anything about this just to turn down their families so they can&#8217;t get survivorship.</p>
  14451.  
  14452.  
  14453.  
  14454. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14455.  
  14456.  
  14457.  
  14458. <p>Let&#8217;s talk about this, right. There are two really crucial sort of threads here that I want to make sure listeners are following along with, right? Because there&#8217;s, like you said, your life changed in 83 when you filed that grievance and you were getting sick. You got really sick in 85. You lost your workers&#8217; comp in 87, and it&#8217;s been a process ever since then to essentially learn what you and your fellow workers and your community were being exposed to by this plan. And then on top of that, there&#8217;s been the struggle for accountability, the struggle for compensation for people who were exposed to these things. Can we talk about that first one for a second and then connect it to the second part? Can we just go back to that, the mid eighties and that sort of period, what was it like trying to getting sick, feeling these effects, not knowing what was going on and then starting this lifelong process to try to figure out what was poisoning you and trying to get the government or the plant to admit that it was doing that?</p>
  14459.  
  14460.  
  14461.  
  14462. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14463.  
  14464.  
  14465.  
  14466. <p>The plant, I don&#8217;t think is ever going to admit it unless we get the Rica down, winders compensation bill, refund it back in June, June, and if they don&#8217;t refund that, then this is something to do with the uranium minor, the Trinity. The Trinity blast, and if the community gets it, it would be 25,000 to 150,000 for certain cancers, and they&#8217;re going to link fees to the workers&#8217; cancers that they had. But with the workers&#8217; cancers, like I said, these workers are still fighting for compensation. A lot of them are, I thought from 2002 until up 2000, maybe 15, to get my compensation. Like I said, they locked my records up several different times, and I was lucky that I was able to get compensation because during this fight, this company, it&#8217;s not cheap. I maxed out five credit cards and I couldn&#8217;t quit. I mean, it&#8217;s just like an obsession.</p>
  14467.  
  14468.  
  14469.  
  14470. <p>You just can&#8217;t quit until you ask them at the meetings, you say, tell us what&#8217;s there. Tell us what you&#8217;ve done to us because maybe we can help you. Maybe we can give some suggestions or something, but we can&#8217;t do anything. We don&#8217;t know what we&#8217;ve been exposed to until you tell us, be truthful and be transparent. We can&#8217;t help if they would&#8217;ve been more truthful and would&#8217;ve listened when I said, Hey, 93, we got pian here. What can we do? The community would&#8217;ve been willing to work with them on this, but no, they&#8217;d rather just cover it up and pretend like you&#8217;re somebody crazy trying to shut the plant down. You don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re talking about.</p>
  14471.  
  14472.  
  14473.  
  14474. <p>They have people who you used to talk to don&#8217;t talk to you because the company tells them that you&#8217;re crazy. You don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re talking about. But now those people are realizing, I do know what I was talking about, because they&#8217;re all losing family members. And so the compensation bill is a good thing, but it needs to be fixed because there&#8217;s workers who are still fighting for illnesses that they shouldn&#8217;t be because they are a spatial exposure cohort site. But it&#8217;s like a nightmare. And I&#8217;ve learned so much and so many different stories that sometimes I think I&#8217;m crazy myself. Who in the world&#8217;s going to believe you with all these things that you&#8217;ve learned in these 40 some years about that plant? Who&#8217;s going to believe it that I believe now? I mean, the workers appreciate me a lot more. They ask for their help, and I help.</p>
  14475.  
  14476.  
  14477.  
  14478. <p>I don&#8217;t charge anybody, but I help put their records together if they need it. And then I have an attorney out in New York Hug Stevens who works on the E-E-O-I-C-P-A Energy employees compensation bill. And so if the workers don&#8217;t have the right paperwork before they file, they&#8217;re automatically going to get turned down. So it&#8217;s best that they know what they need before they fail an application, because once you get turned down, it&#8217;s hard to have it overturned. It&#8217;s not impossible. I&#8217;ve overturned my case many a times, and so it&#8217;s not impossible and it can be done, but you have to have the right paperwork and you hire an attorney, and the attorney can only make 3% to 10% for helping these workers, which is a good deal. I mean, it&#8217;s not like some attorneys who charge you 33% and take a lot of your money and you don&#8217;t get the money, but these workers will get the money if they get the right representatives to represent &#8217;em.</p>
  14479.  
  14480.  
  14481.  
  14482. <p>But then I go back and I think about all these releases I was working there and they never told us. And one of the problems at piping is we have uranium, hexa, fluorides. Fluorides is a very dangerous problem to your bones, to the animals, to the humans. And we released this for 70 years. And my process, I felt like the fluorides, the plutonium, Neptune eria all of these products on together with the fluorides, and that&#8217;s how I think a lot of it went off site in the air. This is not counting creek and the storms, storms and all the C creeks that they dumped into. And the 78th spill went down nursing home road and went into one of the cricks that emptied out into the Scio River from the Scio River, 20 miles or less. Down stream is the Ohio River, so the side river from here, where this plant&#8217;s coming is going to the Ohio River, and from the Ohio River, it&#8217;s going all the way down to the Mississippi.</p>
  14483.  
  14484.  
  14485.  
  14486. <p>So whatever is being dumped at Python is going all the way down to the Mississippi. So people all along this area will be affected by this plant and not even know it. There&#8217;s a direct pipeline that I found that went from the plant into the S river for 70 years, and this pipe is being used again for whatever they&#8217;re doing at the plant. What they want to do is sell off this 80 acres of the land and claim that it&#8217;s not contaminated. They want to give it to the community reuse group, and they want to put two small modular reactors out here, and once they get the two small modular reactors back here, now we are going to be, guess what? We are going to be reprocessing or recycling, whatever you want to call it, transics from all of the sites in the United States and foreign countries.</p>
  14487.  
  14488.  
  14489.  
  14490. <p>So it makes absolutely no sense to me to spend billions of dollars to clean up a plant and turn around to do this very same thing. But they&#8217;re given 80 acres to put these, what they&#8217;re calling powerhouses in to s and satellite is going to sell this 20 acres at a time, $20,000, and they&#8217;re going to make a hundred and some thousand dollars off of this free land that they&#8217;re getting. I&#8217;ve offered to go out and take samples to see what&#8217;s in the land, but they won&#8217;t let me do that. They won&#8217;t let me have the dirt. And why I&#8217;m thinking about piss all these years, people think that these facilities, that the NRC and the CDC and NIOSH and all of this is on plant side and the EPA and they come in and they take samples and take it home to study &#8217;em.</p>
  14491.  
  14492.  
  14493.  
  14494. <p>But no one takes samples of the radioactive material at that plant other than the DOE and the DOD. What they do, they give all these agencies, people, NIOSH and OSHA people, and they try to do by the book of NIOSH and osha. So none of these agencies have any jurisdictions over these facilities. So all these years I thought they had OSHA and niosh. They hire their own people for OSHA and niosh. The EPA does not come in, dig up the dirt and take the samples at the plant. The plant gives them paperwork and they read that paperwork. So who knows where they get the samples from because you cannot trust people, the DOE, nor as contractors because they don&#8217;t tell &#8217;em.</p>
  14495.  
  14496.  
  14497.  
  14498. <p>We had one group here, I remember Owen Thompson and I, he was 42 years old and he died of a brain tumor. We went to a construction company here called Bo Coleman Construction. We talked to his secretary, Kathy Coleman, who&#8217;s now a commissioner in Portmouth, Ohio. We told her that Boone Coleman&#8217;s workers were taking trucks into the plant. They were loading the contaminated dirt on the trucks, had a plastic miner in the trucks. PI workers were suited up in their hazmats. The truck drivers were wearing nothing. There was either 17 or 19 family members of Boom Coleman Construction who died of cancer. Some were compensated, some were still fighting the plant for compensation. So right now today I talked to some truck drivers who are going in there. They are not suiting them up, so they do not learn from what they did in the past.</p>
  14499.  
  14500.  
  14501.  
  14502. <p>They just continue to do whatever they want to do. Same that they have all these years that these new truck drivers, Harry and dirt, I&#8217;ll, I&#8217;ll tell you where the dirt goes. We fought not to have waste on site. We did not want to be a nuclear waste site. So the community didn&#8217;t want it. 300 people showed up, packed his room down at Shawnee State, 25 miles from the plant. We packed that room. We did not want this waste. They let it lay for a couple of years thinking everyone would just forget about it. And then they took all of our surrounding county commissioners, these areas surrounding county commissioners, gave them permission to put this waste on piped in site. So now we have 12 waste cells out here, 12 of them. They disassembled the 3 26, the high assay building and open air, nothing on it, no canvas, nothing, just open air.</p>
  14503.  
  14504.  
  14505.  
  14506. <p>All this stuff is going into the air, into the community, into the surrounding areas. They took this stuff over and put it in one of those waste cells. Now they&#8217;re getting ready to tear down the three 30 building, the building that I was in in that golf cart. They&#8217;re tearing that building down and they&#8217;re going to put it in number two waste cell. We have 12 waste cells on site thanks to our county commissioners, no public input. They let the county commission. So it&#8217;s important who you elect in your communities because these people make an awful lot of decisions that you don&#8217;t like. We don&#8217;t like it. We should have never got it. Now all of them are pushing for these small modular reactors where we are going to be probably the largest hub. The nuclear waste that gets back to the railroad workers. They ship this stuff in and out.</p>
  14507.  
  14508.  
  14509.  
  14510. <p>They&#8217;re not protected. I had workers tell me we got 25,000 depleted uranium cylinders on site that give off neutron exposures, bedding outside DK stacked two or three high if the whole plant. They cleaned up some other sites like Oak originally thing and sent all this stuff to Python, 25,000 depleted uranium cylinders. They&#8217;re trying to convert some, I&#8217;m not for sure if they&#8217;re successful with it or not because they don&#8217;t talk about the production still this day. All that was still supposed to be a secret, but they&#8217;re storing these outside in the rain, rusty old, and we&#8217;ve had the most breaches with these depleted uranium cylinders than they had in Oak Ridge or Paducah. We had the most here in the Portsmouth site</p>
  14511.  
  14512.  
  14513.  
  14514. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14515.  
  14516.  
  14517.  
  14518. <p>Depleted</p>
  14519.  
  14520.  
  14521.  
  14522. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14523.  
  14524.  
  14525.  
  14526. <p>Uranium cylinders. They&#8217;re huge cylinders and they&#8217;re sitting outside stacked. They were stacked on the ground. So when we kept complaining about it, they finally brought &#8217;em up on railroad ties or something and took them off the ground and painted some of them and stacked them up. Well, now they&#8217;ve got &#8217;em all over the outside of the plant just sitting there and the cave and they give off neutron exposures. Railroad workers told me they would sit on the train with these cylinders sat on top of these cylinders. So one of my friends didn&#8217;t glaze. He told me that it was his job. He was loading, unload the cylinders, and we probably sat with the cylinders all day long. He died of cancer a couple of years ago. So the railroads not taking safety precautions for their workers. And then I listen to the ones up in East Palestine, these workers, they want to lay a bunch of them off and who&#8217;s going to be overseeing that? These trains are equipped with workers who know what to do in case of an accident. It&#8217;s horrible.</p>
  14527.  
  14528.  
  14529.  
  14530. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14531.  
  14532.  
  14533.  
  14534. <p>And I know it&#8217;s not exactly the same thing, but it&#8217;s kind of the same principle, right? That the workers who were on that train that derailed in East Palestine, the first responders who were coming in from not only East Palestine but the surrounding area because it&#8217;s, again, this is a small town America, you need people from all over the place getting there. I mean, those were people rushing headlong into help. And a lot of them didn&#8217;t know what was on that train and what sort of fumes they were breathing in. Just like the town knew very little about the contents of those cars that were going to be vented and set on fire three days after the derailment. And as I hope people listening to this can hear, and Vine is doing such an incredible job pointing out it&#8217;s not just that workers at this plant like we&#8217;re being poisoned and it sounds like knowingly or recklessly exposed to all of these things that we&#8217;ve been talking about for the past hour and a half.</p>
  14535.  
  14536.  
  14537.  
  14538. <p>But also this is not just staying there. I mean this concerns all of us in terms of the contamination that we may have already been exposed to for basically our whole lifetimes. I mean, everyone listening to this, we&#8217;ve got PFAS in our bodies. We&#8217;re basically half plastic at this point. This is this kind of stuff that accumulates in your body and your environment in your community, and by the time you realize what&#8217;s happening to you, it&#8217;s already too late. And I wanted to stress that for folks because that&#8217;s what we were talking about in East Palestine. We said, we can&#8217;t wait until a train derails in our backyard or a company admits they&#8217;ve been poisoning us. When everyone starts dying of cancers, we need to start banding together now and fighting to protect ourselves against all of this. And we got to band together as a class to do that and to see each other as human beings who don&#8217;t deserve this, whether it&#8217;s because of the Department of Energy, the Department of Defense, or whether it&#8217;s because of a private corporation like Norfolk Southern people&#8217;s lives, our communities, our safety, our health that matters.</p>
  14539.  
  14540.  
  14541.  
  14542. <p>And yet we live in a society that just so routinely throws us aside, puts us in harm&#8217;s way, tells us to shut up when we&#8217;re developing these health effects and then just buries us and forgets us when we die of the cancers we were suspecting, we were developing the whole time. And vina, I have two questions I wanted to ask you. Thinking so many things, and there&#8217;s so many more things I want to talk to you about, but I have to ask because you mentioned this and it&#8217;s like my heart was breaking hearing you talk about this, but as someone who yourself, you&#8217;ve lived in this area your whole life. You were a former electrician at the Portsmouth gaseous diffusion plant in the early eighties. It felt like a good job, but then you went through this horrible experience you developed, you were developing all these health effects, you were exposed to all of this radiation and just all, God, I can hardly rattle off all the things that you were exposed to. And then for four decades you&#8217;ve been fighting to tell the truth, to get accountability and justice and compensation. And it just feels so sad that now decades later, after you&#8217;ve been ostracized, after you&#8217;ve been threatened and people have been saying that you&#8217;re a troublemaker who&#8217;s trying to close the plant. Now some of those same people are coming to you years later asking you for help for applications because they are getting the cancers you were warning them about.</p>
  14543.  
  14544.  
  14545.  
  14546. <p>How does that feel? I can&#8217;t even imagine what emotionally that&#8217;s like to deal with to still, I mean, it&#8217;s incredible that you&#8217;re helping folks and you&#8217;re still fighting this fight, but I just can&#8217;t imagine what it must be like to have gone through this to be raising the alarm and ostracized for it. And now years later, it&#8217;s like people are coming back to you saying, you&#8217;re right. But what is it? You&#8217;re right because everyone&#8217;s dying and so many people in your community are dying of cancers at early ages or bizarre cancers. What is that like for you?</p>
  14547.  
  14548.  
  14549.  
  14550. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14551.  
  14552.  
  14553.  
  14554. <p>When I hear of a kid has cancer, he would give me flashbacks of a little boy. Last name was Ross County. Ross and I remember his sister sent me a couple and I still have a letter, a 50 post letter about her little brother and he passed away. And every time I feel like giving up, I think about the kids. There&#8217;s a little girl out there right now that&#8217;s got leukemia, two years old. Think about the kids. So you don&#8217;t think about all of the negative things that people say to you or whatever because they&#8217;re going to find out sooner or later they&#8217;ll find out. And what the workers say to me, doesn&#8217;t bother me, used to bother me because my brother-in-Law would tell my husband I was shutting down the plant and he wouldn&#8217;t have a job. So my husband, they used to play cars together all once a week and he got, so he couldn&#8217;t even go over there because Gary felt like I was shutting down his job.</p>
  14555.  
  14556.  
  14557.  
  14558. <p>But there at the end, Gary said I was right the whole time. So it gives you a good feeling that people tell you that what you&#8217;ve been saying is right. But then on the other hand, you have mixed motions because they&#8217;re dying. People are dying because the government doesn&#8217;t care. My government doesn&#8217;t care. You don&#8217;t know how I feel because I&#8217;m very patriotic. I have such a military background in my family. And so to hear that the government doesn&#8217;t care. Last night I went to a meeting in Pipe. It was supposed to have been a training session, but it wound up being a meeting and they were doing these forever chemicals and they have a huge problem there. And I told them last night, they talk about the plastic in your body and all this, but they had a huge problem with it off site.</p>
  14559.  
  14560.  
  14561.  
  14562. <p>And I let &#8217;em know that I took two samples out of the crick on Wakefield Mound Road and one of these samples showed positive for the pfas. I said, it&#8217;s in one of the cricks on Wakefield Mound Road. And we had a problem. And then the commissioner was there from Portsmouth, Ohio, Brian Davis and I, him, I said, you all have a lawsuit in Portsmouth over the chemicals and you never told the community. To this day, they have not told the community. And I found a newspaper article and I put it on my Facebook and I told him last night, not only are we in Portsmouth, Ohio drinking this contaminated water, but we are piping it over to Kentucky because they had trouble with their water. And I said, you&#8217;re giving them contaminated water and it&#8217;s because you haven&#8217;t told the people that you foul a lawsuit over this and they&#8217;re drinking this forever. Chemicals and how do they get to these officials? They just don&#8217;t seem to think. They seem to think they&#8217;re invisible. They&#8217;re not doing it. They&#8217;re not. It&#8217;s unbelievable.</p>
  14563.  
  14564.  
  14565.  
  14566. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14567.  
  14568.  
  14569.  
  14570. <p>It really, really is. And again, this is what brought us all to East Palestine and that&#8217;s also bittersweet. And like you said, the motions are very mixed because while as I&#8217;ve expressed on this show, I was so inspired and heartened to see everyone there, including you and the folks, also folks from West Virginia who are being poisoned by fracking coal mining people like poisoned by algae blooms in Ohio, from the runoff from the hog factories, the CAFOs that we&#8217;ve reported on people in San Francisco who are getting radiation poisoning cancer alley in Louisiana, the uranium mining and Navajo nation. The very concept of a sacrifice zone is pretty horrifying in and of itself. And yet I think in a just society, the very concept of a sacrifice zone would not exist. And yet I feel like what brought us out to East ine, which is pikes in Portsmouth, so many other parts of the country, Curtis Bay here in Baltimore, these are sacrifice zones, zones that are being sacrificed, IE, the people are being sacrificed, the environment is being sacrificed because of government negligence, corporate greed or some cocktail of both.</p>
  14571.  
  14572.  
  14573.  
  14574. <p>And even though these horrifying instances shock us and scare us, I think what we were all there to and recognized in East Palestine is like this is what they have in store for all of us. This is where the future is going for working people under this sort of just regime of letting corporations do whatever they want, letting government ignore its own citizens even when they&#8217;re shouting for help and are fighting against being industrially poisoned. I mean, this is how bad things have gotten. And maybe that&#8217;ll finally get us to realize that the things that we think divide us are not important and they don&#8217;t actually divide us. The things that really unite us, like our right to breathe the air and drink the water and have our kids play in the grass without worrying that they&#8217;re going to be developing rare cancers because of some corporation that set up shop down the road.</p>
  14575.  
  14576.  
  14577.  
  14578. <p>We want to build a life for ourselves and our families and our communities. And if we can&#8217;t band together on that basic human level, then I don&#8217;t know what hope there is for us. But I saw that hope in East Palestine and I see it in your fight that you&#8217;ve been waging for decades and the fact that you&#8217;re still going out there to these other communities to warn them and to help them use the knowledge that you&#8217;ve developed through so many decades of struggle, you&#8217;ve done more than one human being should ever be asked to do, and yet you have done it and we are all grateful to you for it and we would not be able to build what we&#8217;re trying to build out of East Palestine. Now if it wasn&#8217;t for folks like you fighting this fight for so long, and so I just wanted to say that on this recording and really encourage folks out there to learn everything you can about Vina, learn everything that you can about this diffusion plant, read up on Three Mile Island.</p>
  14579.  
  14580.  
  14581.  
  14582. <p>We got to start connecting these dots and bringing ourselves and our communities in touch with each other so we can talk about how to fight this so we&#8217;re not fighting it alone in our own communities like East Palestine or Piketon and Portsmouth. I mean none of us can bear that load on our own, but if we all come together to help and speak as one, we may actually be able to break through. And so I just wanted to turn that into a final question, Vina, because again, we&#8217;re going to have to talk more because I could talk to you for days, but I&#8217;m so grateful to you for your time and for laying all this out for us. And just I wanted to ask a final question. If you could talk to listeners out there, why did you go to East Palestine? What do you want folks to know about what your experience, why they should care about what we were all talking about there in East Palestine and what you have been fighting for over there in Portsmouth for so long?</p>
  14583.  
  14584.  
  14585.  
  14586. <p>Vina Colley:</p>
  14587.  
  14588.  
  14589.  
  14590. <p>When I heard about the story of East Palestine, it broke my heart because this is a community and it was obvious, so obvious to the eye and to the ears listening to it that this train ran and it was like in a bomb that went off in this community and it&#8217;s a year with no response from the officials. That&#8217;s horrible. These people are suffering. I mean, I just saw a video where the girl was walking in the water and you could see the oil stuff come up out of the water and they&#8217;re breathing this chemical and no one&#8217;s doing anything about it. They should not have gone a year without help insurance, without help for cleaning up this mess and getting those people and relocating them somewhere until they can make their homes safe again. Instead they&#8217;re letting them there. They&#8217;re getting sicker. They&#8217;re losing their homes, they&#8217;re losing their family, and the railroad doesn&#8217;t care.</p>
  14591.  
  14592.  
  14593.  
  14594. <p>Neither does it sound like any of our representatives care. It&#8217;s time that they help these people. It just breaks your heart really. I mean, I&#8217;ve lived it for 40 years. What they&#8217;ve done to my community people, this was a day something that they couldn&#8217;t help. And this railroad workers, I mean they were exposed too. This train just wrecked in a community that was unprepared. They had no training or hama training, how to protect yourself. And we let them as a government, as a nation live in that for over a year without helping them. It&#8217;s just heartbreaking. I think about piping and what they&#8217;ve done. They&#8217;ve done it to us for 70 years, but this is a DOE and a DOE site and it&#8217;s much harder to break them. It shouldn&#8217;t be this hard for those people there in East Palestine, not at all. And so it&#8217;s criminal what they&#8217;re doing.</p>
  14595.  
  14596.  
  14597.  
  14598. <p>And I want to warn that these people, there&#8217;s people like Agency for Toxic Substance and Disease Registry that comes into your community and they&#8217;re going to do all these studies, studies, but these studies are bogus. We just got a released yesterday from A SDR about Python and they should be ashamed of themselves for doing this study. They looked at everything they could look at that they knew they wouldn&#8217;t find nothing in certain places. They left out a German did an epidemiologist study of PI and the surrounding county. We are the highest in the state of Ohio for cancers. Out of the 88 counties we are the highest and out of nation we are with a cancer rate there percent higher and nationally we&#8217;re almost 80 some percent higher for cancer here. Government knows it and they&#8217;re ignoring it. And then they release this paper that should have been thrown in the trash because this is the second time this group has come here and they were caught in lies. They don&#8217;t look for what, they look for places where they&#8217;re not going to find anything.</p>
  14599.  
  14600.  
  14601.  
  14602. <p>And here we would probably be stuck with this report, but we&#8217;re not going to sit back and take it. We are going to bash them. They need to know that they can&#8217;t come into communities anymore and try to keep their jobs and do what these corporations want them to do. The first time they came in here, they were caught in lies by the attorneys for the first lawsuit that took 21 years to settle. And so I still have that letter and I&#8217;m using that letter and they got caught up in lives then and they&#8217;re lying now. So we haven&#8217;t quite figured out because we haven&#8217;t went through the 90 some page report yet. But what we found in the first part of it was enough to say, Hey, don&#8217;t move this. Just throw this garbage out.</p>
  14603.  
  14604.  
  14605.  
  14606. <p>I want to say that in 2017 we had a school in Zion&#8217;s Corner that was shut down because with the company&#8217;s own air monitors, n Tanium and AMIA has been found in the school. Five or six kids at the school had cancers and they shut the school down. And would you believe today the school has got a ling fence around it? It&#8217;s still there, but ton&#8217;s going to get money to build a new school. This is one school. Do you know how many other schools are in within the two to three or four mile radius that they never have checked And the other monitor that belongs to the company, this is a company monitor around this school that they shut down. The other monitor is in a place called Radan, Ohio, 14 miles from the plant who picks up the same REIA and a Neptune that this little school did.</p>
  14607.  
  14608.  
  14609.  
  14610. <p>And there&#8217;s several schools in this area like Valley Northwest are in the air path of that air monitor. Anna White, the Secretary of Energy, knew about this other air monitor, went to Washington dc She tried to get help for this community and they fired her. I know personally people that was in the office when she came of that office crying, they fired her because she wanted to help pipe them. They don&#8217;t wanted her to help pipe them. And so not only in 2017, but a couple of press members, their names were Floyd and Donna Music both have passed since then. They came to a meeting at press and told us that those AA reports, the company reports showed that that school in that corner was radioactive. And so they went to the government agencies and they come out and told them that they didn&#8217;t have any problems and there was no problem at that school.</p>
  14611.  
  14612.  
  14613.  
  14614. <p>This was years and years ago. And somebody read the A report again and found that that air monitor was contaminated. I&#8217;ve had experts in here. I&#8217;ve had Dr. Michael Keer, he&#8217;s taking samples now. I&#8217;ve had him in the creek and he&#8217;s in the University of Arizona and he comes and he&#8217;s taking samples and we&#8217;re finding a lot of contamination off site of ton. Dr. Joe Menno did an epidemiology of this area and found a high rate of cancer. And he told me, he said, Voina, I feel sorry for your people. In all my years I&#8217;ve done this. I&#8217;ve never seen anything as bad as ton.</p>
  14615.  
  14616.  
  14617.  
  14618. <p>The other thing that&#8217;s going on right now is the compensation program. It&#8217;s about to run out of money. Someone put in Oak Ridge and Paducah, and this is the Uranium Miners bill and the Trinity Bill for the downwinders of the fallout. And they were trying to expand the compensation bill and these ladies down in St. Louis that live around a landfill trying to get added to the bill and they want to add Oak Ridge and Paducah, but guess what? They want to leave Portmouth out again. So when I heard that was coming down, I immediately had a petition put on by Jim, by Sally, Jason, Sally. And we got 300 and some names on it in my ground office and told him what was going on. And I said, they&#8217;re having a hearing right now in the Senate and they&#8217;ve left out the Portsmouth site.</p>
  14619.  
  14620.  
  14621.  
  14622. <p>And so his office said, send me all the dock that you can send me in a half an hour. And I said, A half an hour, I&#8217;m getting ready to go for a doctor&#8217;s report. But she said, yep, we need them in a half an hour. So Senator Brown got Senator Vance and they went over to the hearing that was going on in the Senate. Portmouth was not on the write-up of the bill yet. But when Mexico Senator said, I&#8217;m talking to Brown and Vance and we are working on adding Portsmouth to this, but Senator Brown and didn&#8217;t know about that. They were going behind our backs and pushed for Oak Ridge and Paducah the same way that they did with the workers&#8217; compensation bill. And when I found out about it, I was able to get to our senators in. So it&#8217;s just overwhelming.</p>
  14623.  
  14624.  
  14625.  
  14626. <p>And we still don&#8217;t know if Portmouth is going to be added to this field because the Bill Gates and all of these corporate people have other plans for Ton. So we&#8217;re hoping council wrote a letter in support of Rica for the Python community and pipe and board of commissioners have wrote a letter. The Community Reuse organization wrote one and shocked me to death. And the United Steel Workers, the Union have wrote a letter and I asked the the Portsmouth County Commissioner Brian Davis last night to please write a letter of support on behalf of the people here in Scioto County. I live 10 11 a miles. I&#8217;m in Scioto County, I&#8217;m not in Pike County, I&#8217;m in Scioto County, but I&#8217;m 10 miles from that plant in the air miles. So they want to wipe out Scioto County, they want us to be a nuclear hub and they don&#8217;t want to focus on Piketon.</p>
  14627.  
  14628.  
  14629.  
  14630. <p>Someone nationally was deliberately leaving Python off this compensation bill. And so we don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going to happen. We don&#8217;t even know if they&#8217;re going to, if Congress by now, it went through the Senate and it&#8217;s in the house. So if any of your listeners know any of the representatives that we have in the house, bill, I&#8217;m talking to Jim Jordan and I don&#8217;t know all the members of the house, but if anyone in your listening area knows anyone that&#8217;s in the house to please ask them to vote for the Rica bill and especially ADD and Scioto County and the surrounding counties from the A plant. And so I think a petition really makes people move. I mean, this is the first time that other than the compensation bill, our representatives had paid any attention to us. And it was with that petition. Maybe if the people of East Palestine put the line and it doesn&#8217;t have to come from them.</p>
  14631.  
  14632.  
  14633.  
  14634. <p>They can come from all these national groups. I&#8217;ve joined all kind of national groups just to get the word out about piping because we were not even on the map when I started this. And I brought to a big group called Alliance for New accountability work on people living in the shadows of these facilities. And so I did belong to a military toxic project. We worked on the depleted uranium and the Gulf War syndrome. So I&#8217;m begging your listeners to please help us get mentioned on this house bill and for them to re-up to pay the uranium miners and the Trinity. And we were a big part of Ohio was a big part of the Manhattan Project, but you don&#8217;t ever hear about that. New Mexico started in 1943 and I found out that Mount facility in Dayton, Ohio also started Manhattan Project in 1943. But for some reason nationally they don&#8217;t want to talk about Ohio. And Ohio played a big part, played a big part in the Manhattan Project. They just did that movie Oppenheimer, not one word was mentioned about the Manhattan Project, Ohio being part of it. One word. So if we&#8217;re going to tell the story, we need to tell the whole story, see the whole picture because we can&#8217;t get help until we know the whole thing, the whole truth.</p>
  14635.  
  14636.  
  14637.  
  14638. <p>I testify for human experimentation. I testified in Washington DC and I testified in Cincinnati. They had a doctor in Cincinnati. People would come into the hospitals and I have a list of all the hospitals that were involved. I mean there was a Dayton, Cincinnati, Columbus hospitals, the Dr. Sanger people come into the hospital, he would inject them with the baton to see how much they took and the government paid him to do this. Sad part about it is the government took away his money and he continued to experiment on people like you and me go into the hospital, we would inject you with plutonium. And so he continued to do that. So when they finally paid these people money, government would only pay the ones that they paid for him to experiment on. And all these other people that he did on his own got no compensation. He winded up dying of cancer himself. Dr. Sanger did. And the state of Ohio used this quack for compensation to evaluate workers. My friend Owen Thompson went to him and he told him that he had a cancer or a tumor, but it wasn&#8217;t big enough to be caused from working at the A plant. No one died, like I said, 42 for cancer. Dr. Sanger said he didn&#8217;t have enough exposure for his brain tumor to be related to the plant.</p>
  14639.  
  14640.  
  14641.  
  14642. <p>God has a way of taking care of people who don&#8217;t take care of their own. And Dr. Sanger was a doctor who was to treat us and to take care of us. He did not take care of the people he experimented on. He even had a young attorney here in Portmouth, Ohio that went to one of the hospitals. He was in his thirties and he was experimented on and he also died too. But I have a list somewhere of all these hospitals that did human experimentations and if you remember the OJ Simpson case, you remember when they were chasing him in this Bronco all over the place. The president came on national TV and apologized to these radiation victims and it was like a five second board. And then all day we watched a blanco run around the streets by these people who were experimented on Got a five second.</p>
  14643.  
  14644.  
  14645.  
  14646. <p>I&#8217;m sorry that we did this to your people in society. We just got everything mixed up in her heads or something. Our priorities. I remember our priorities of being a young kid was the family, the dinners and leaving our doors unlocked. We never locked our doors. People got along so much better, but we just seemed to be so much so corrupt now that we don&#8217;t care about our families and our neighbors. And I took care of my mom. I took care of my dad. I took care of my uncle. I took care of a few of my aunts people that were sick. They never paid me to do this. I didn&#8217;t because they were my family. Nowadays, you can&#8217;t hardly get people to help your family. My kids, they helped me. I don&#8217;t want for nothing. A lot of families aren&#8217;t like that anymore. I miss that. I miss that. I miss that.</p>
  14647.  
  14648.  
  14649.  
  14650. <p>Maximillian Alvarez:</p>
  14651.  
  14652.  
  14653.  
  14654. <p>All right gang, that&#8217;s going to wrap things up for us this week. I want to thank our amazing guest, Vina Colley, and as always, I want thank you all for listening and I want to thank you for caring. Be sure to follow the links in the show notes if you&#8217;d like to learn more about Vina Struggle and about the current fight to pressure policymakers in DC to include Ohio zip codes adjacent to the US Department of Energy site in Piketon, Ohio in the Federal Radiation Exposure Compensation Act or Rica program. According to a march press release from Ohio, Senator Sherrod Brown&#8217;s office, Rika enacted in 1990 provides a one-time benefit payment to individuals who have gotten sick or died as a result of exposure to radiation from atomic weapons testing or uranium mining. Milling or transportation. Rica is currently set to expire in June, 2024. Absent congressional action, Senator Brown was able to secure a commitment from the bill&#8217;s sponsors to work to add impacted communities in Pike and Scioto County to rka adding zip codes in Pike and Scioto County to the bill&#8217;s nuclear storage exposure provision would ensure workers and residents in Ohio adjacent to the US Department of Energy site and Piketon Ohio are also made eligible for compensation resulting from the improper storage of radioactive material.</p>
  14655.  
  14656.  
  14657.  
  14658. <p>So that&#8217;s going to do it for us this week, y&#8217;all. We&#8217;ll see you guys back here next week for another episode of Working People. And if you can&#8217;t wait that long, then you know what to do. Go subscribe to our Patreon and check out all the awesome bonus episodes that we&#8217;ve got there waiting for you and our patrons and of course, go explore all the other great work we&#8217;re doing at the Real News Network where we do grassroots journalism, lifting up the voices and stories from the front lines of struggle. Sign up for the Real News newsletter so you never miss a story and help us do more work like this by going to the real news.com/donate and becoming a supporter today. I promise you it really makes a difference. I&#8217;m Maximillian Alvarez. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Solidarity forever.</p>
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