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  <link href="https://intertwingly.net/blog/index.atom" rel="self"/>
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1. <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
2. <feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
3. <title>Sam Ruby</title>
4. <subtitle>It’s just data</subtitle>
5. <link href="https://intertwingly.net/blog/index.atom" rel="self"/>
6. <link href="https://intertwingly.net/blog/"/>
7. <updated>2002-01-17T16:32:42.000Z</updated>
8. <id>https://intertwingly.net/blog/</id>
9. <author>
10.  <name>Sam Ruby</name>
11.  <email>rubys@intertwingly.net</email>
12. </author>
13.  
14. <entry>
15. <title>null</title>
16. <link href="/blog/1.html"/>
17. <updated>2002-01-17T16:32:42.000Z</updated>
18. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:1</id>
19. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>I like Dave's <a
20. href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0101359/slides/InfoWorld/slide0001.html">
21. InfoWorld slides</a> very much.&#160; But to me, reality is much
22. more fractal.&#160; Bridges are complicated structures.&#160; <a
23. href="http://www.xmlrpc.com/bootstrappingTheTwoWayWeb">Bootstrapping</a>&#160;is
24. definitely the way to go.  But at some point the thin cable
25. becomes part of a larger intertwined structure that is a thicker
26. cable.  And that thicker cable becomes part of a larger
27. intertwined structure called a bridge.  And that bridge's
28. design is approved by nameless civil servants.  And
29. inspected on a regular basis by blue collar workers. 
30. Everybody plays a vital role.</p>
31.  
32. <p><a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/">SOAP</a>&#160;is such a
33. thin cable.  What other thin cables will is be interwoven with
34. to produce the thicker cable that will become part of the massive
35. infrastructure that we generically refer to as the internet?</p></div></content>
36. </entry>
37.  
38. <entry>
39. <title>null</title>
40. <link href="/blog/2.html"/>
41. <updated>2002-01-18T16:17:05.000Z</updated>
42. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:2</id>
43. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>Hmmm.&#160; What the beta of the&#160;slides referenced below
44. didn't mention was that Dave was going to use his <a
45. href="http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/01/17/020117hnwinertalk.xml">
46. Infoworld keynote</a> to argue against pulling the <a
47. href="http://www.w3.org/TR/wsdl">second cable</a> across so that we
48. can get on with the business of building bridges between all
49. platforms, static and dynamic alike.</p>
50.  
51. <p>Perl is a reasonably dynamic scripting language, no?&#160; Yet
52. in that language, parameters are passed by position instead of
53. name.&#160; What extra information can the <a
54. href="http://www.soaplite.com/">SOAP::Lite</a> implementation make
55. use of to provide this added information?  Why WSDL, of
56. course!</p></div></content>
57. </entry>
58.  
59. <entry>
60. <title>null</title>
61. <link href="/blog/3.html"/>
62. <updated>2002-01-18T17:16:18.000Z</updated>
63. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:3</id>
64. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>Chuckle!&#160; <a
65. href="http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backissues/2002/01/18#l5702fc189772977d46290622ed3b0427">
66. Dave linked back to me</a>.&#160; I'm new to weblogging, but I can
67. see how this might become addictive.  Oh, by the way, Apache's
68. implementations can invoke soap services without a WSDL. 
69. And any service which is described with a WSDL can certainly be
70. invoked without referencing the WSDL.&#160; No lock-in here!</div></div></content>
71. </entry>
72.  
73. <entry>
74. <title>null</title>
75. <link href="/blog/4.html"/>
76. <updated>2002-01-19T11:53:25.000Z</updated>
77. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:4</id>
78. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div><a href="http://www.donbox.com/rumors2.htm">A mind is a terrible
79. thing to waste.</a>&#160; Just kidding!&#160; If it hadn't been for
80. <a href="http://www.develop.com/dbox/combook/">this book</a>, I
81. would never have done <a
82. href="http://www.zend.com/zend/hof/sam.php">this</a>.&#160; Of
83. course, that lead to other <a
84. href="http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/People/Tech_Board.html#sam">
85. things</a>, which ultimately got me interested in <a
86. href="http://xml.apache.org/soap/contributors.html">SOAP</a>
87. (another product that Don is a co-author of), and, well <a
88. href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/">here</a>.</div></div></content>
89. </entry>
90.  
91. <entry>
92. <title>null</title>
93. <link href="/blog/5.html"/>
94. <updated>2002-01-19T12:41:25.000Z</updated>
95. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:5</id>
96. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div><a href="http://www.washtech.com/news/media/14759-1.html">AOL to
97. buy RedHat?</a>&#160; Hopefully, this is a precursor to a network
98. appliance OS.</div></div></content>
99. </entry>
100.  
101. <entry>
102. <title>null</title>
103. <link href="/blog/6.html"/>
104. <updated>2002-01-20T12:42:36.000Z</updated>
105. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:6</id>
106. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>Julian Bond in VoidStar <a
107. href="http://www.voidstar.com/node.php?id=690">asks</a>&#160;"is
108. WSDL <strong>useful</strong>?"&#160; I personally was converted to
109. believe in WSDL at the <a
110. href="http://www.apache.org/~rubys/interopathon_planning_meeting.html">
111. interopathon</a> I hosted nine months ago.&#160; Our goal was to
112. flush out any compatibility issues between soap stacks.  While
113. we did plenty of that, where we spent most of our time was
114. resolving issues where people couldn't follow <a
115. href="http://www.apache.org/~dug/interop_f2f_04_19_01.html">simple
116. and clear directions</a>.&#160; People weren't sending things that
117. weren't important to <em>them</em> but may be of vital importance
118. to <em>others</em> (e.g. SOAPAction).&#160; There were plenty of
119. transcription errors (e.g. upper vs. lower case).  And in most
120. cases, the error messages produced weren't helpful.  We spent
121. a lot of time looking at wire dumps.</p>
122.  
123. <p>Those stacks that either could make use of WSDL to create a
124. starting point (proxy, skeleton, etc); or could use WSDL
125. dynamically to "fill in the blanks" seemed to have the least
126. trouble.  At the time, Apache's wasn't one of them. We've
127. since corrected&#160;that in <a
128. href="http://xml.apache.org/axis/index.html">Axis alpha
129. 3</a>&#160;with <a href="http://java.sun.com/xml/jaxrpc/">JAX
130. RPC</a> support..</p></div></content>
131. </entry>
132.  
133. <entry>
134. <title>null</title>
135. <link href="/blog/7.html"/>
136. <updated>2002-01-21T11:51:19.000Z</updated>
137. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:7</id>
138. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>Simon Fell has <a
139. href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/weblog/2002/01/18.html#a40">commented</a>
140. <a
141. href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/weblog/2002/01/20.html#a52">twice</a>
142. on this WSDL discussion, saying that he has no problem with WSDL
143. the concept, but has <a href="http://wsdl.soapware.org/">lots of
144. issues</a> with WSDL the reality.&#160; I respect this constructive
145. criticism.&#160; He seems to like <a
146. href="http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/01/16/endpoints.html">this
147. article</a>, but from his site I found <a
148. href="http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2001/12/19/wsdlwg.html">another
149. article</a> that I like better.&#160; In any case, few people have
150. worked harder than Simon Fell on making interoperability work,
151. including <a
152. href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=soap-dev&m=100723899719241&w=2">
153. two</a> <a
154. href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=soap-user&m=101133132527185&w=2">
155. patches</a> to Apache SOAP 2.2.</div></div></content>
156. </entry>
157.  
158. <entry>
159. <title>null</title>
160. <link href="/blog/8.html"/>
161. <updated>2002-01-21T12:11:26.000Z</updated>
162. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:8</id>
163. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>I found <a href="http://www.advogato.org/article/395.html">The
164. Rules for Open-Source Programming</a> to be both insightful and a
165. joy to read.&#160;&#160;I especially like Ralph's&#160;<a
166. href="http://www.advogato.org/article/395.html#4">more rules</a>,
167. and <a href="http://www.advogato.org/article/395.html#5">Sunir's
168. corrolaries</a> has given me much to think about.</div></div></content>
169. </entry>
170.  
171. <entry>
172. <title>null</title>
173. <link href="/blog/9.html"/>
174. <updated>2002-01-21T13:07:30.000Z</updated>
175. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:9</id>
176. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>LOL: Anybody want a <a
177. href="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-2002027475,00.html">free
178. magazine</a>? <img alt=":-)"
179. src="http://static.userland.com/shortcuts/images/qbullets/sidesmiley.gif" /></div></div></content>
180. </entry>
181.  
182. <entry>
183. <title>null</title>
184. <link href="/blog/10.html"/>
185. <updated>2002-01-21T14:43:14.000Z</updated>
186. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:10</id>
187. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>After a year of being the chairman of the <a
188. href="http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html">Apache
189. Jakarta PMC</a>, it is time for me to call for <a
190. href="http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40jakarta.apache.org/msg03189.html">
191. elections</a> to be held.&#160; The two biggest things I am most
192. pleased with in the development of Jakarta in the past year are <a
193. href="http://jakarta.apache.org/gump/">gump</a> and the
194. establishment of a <a
195. href="http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/index.html">commons
196. subproject</a>.</div></div></content>
197. </entry>
198.  
199. <entry>
200. <title>null</title>
201. <link href="/blog/11.html"/>
202. <updated>2002-01-22T09:48:18.000Z</updated>
203. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:11</id>
204. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p><a
205. href="http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backissues/2002/01/21#l11dac66b4cfa462946003047c27bf425">
206. Dave Winer</a>: <em>Speaking of SOAP, and
207. WSDL, here's something to think about. Look at the <a
208. href="http://plant.blogger.com/api/index.html">Blogger
209. API</a>. No IDL. How did it work? It's very broadly
210. deployed and quite useful. It's gotten a lot of Web people excited
211. about XML-RPC. No one has ever, as far as I know, asked for an IDL.
212. Why?</em></p>
213.  
214. <p>Probably the same reason the <a
215. href="http://xml.apache.org/axis/index.html">Axis</a> link to the
216. left was added using <a href="http://www.vim.org/">vim</a>.&#160;
217. <a href="http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/">We</a> are not our
218. target audience.</p>
219.  
220. <p><em>BTW, it may be foolish
221. of me to think that Web Services are for Web People, but well, I
222. do</em></p>
223.  
224. <p>Dave, I guess your target audience is people like myself and <a
225. href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/01/20.html#a19">Jon
226. Udell</a>&#160;who "have for years been in the game of dynamically
227. generating statically-served sites".  What about the hordes of
228. unwashed masses who aren't so inclined and seem to prefer <a
229. href="http://www.intranetjournal.com/pix/screens/netobjects/sb3_gallery.gif">
230. Integrated</a> <a
231. href="http://www.activestate.com/img_iis/komodo-autocompletion.jpg">
232. Development</a> <a
233. href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/art/figure6progweb.gif">Environments</a>
234. (<a
235. href="http://www.intranetjournal.com/pix/screens/netobjects/sb3_gallery.gif">
236. IDEs</a>)?&#160; Wouldn't the world be a better place if there was
237. some widely adopted way to describe the messages in some structured
238. way ameanable to consumption by such tools?</p></div></content>
239. </entry>
240.  
241. <entry>
242. <title>null</title>
243. <link href="/blog/12.html"/>
244. <updated>2002-01-22T10:52:44.000Z</updated>
245. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:12</id>
246. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>Found on <a href="http://www.daypop.com/top.htm">daypop</a>: <a
247. href="http://www.google.com/corporate/today.html">10 things Google
248. has found to be true</a>.&#160; Sounds good to me.</div></div></content>
249. </entry>
250.  
251. <entry>
252. <title>null</title>
253. <link href="/blog/13.html"/>
254. <updated>2002-01-22T11:03:24.000Z</updated>
255. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:13</id>
256. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>I guess <a
257. href="http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:e4cgtQpLiS4C:www.summer.com.br/~pfilho/html/lyrics/i/is_that_all_there_is.txt">
258. that's all there is</a>&#160;for <a
259. href="http://www.austin360.com/aas/life/ap/ap_story.html/Entertainment/AP.V6902.AP-Obit-Peggy-Lee.html">
260. Peggy Lee</a>.&#160; Thinking about that song brings back pleasant
261. memories of my childhood.</div></div></content>
262. </entry>
263.  
264. <entry>
265. <title>null</title>
266. <link href="/blog/14.html"/>
267. <updated>2002-01-22T21:51:59.000Z</updated>
268. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:14</id>
269. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>Whoa!&#160; Sometime <u>TODAY</u>, <a
270. href="http://www.google.com">Google</a> changed.&#160; Instead of
271. providing <a href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/">links</a> to
272. items that match your search requests, it provides <a
273. href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/">
274. links back to Google</a> that they will redirect to the correct
275. location.  This presumably affects referrers and could have
276. privacy implications.  I'm not quite sure what I think about
277. this just yet.&#160; <font
278. color="blue"><strong>UPDATE</strong></font>: they changed it
279. back!  It was repeatable with different search criteria while
280. it lasted, but now it is gone.&#160; Something to keep an eye on...</div></div></content>
281. </entry>
282.  
283. <entry>
284. <title>null</title>
285. <link href="/blog/15.html"/>
286. <updated>2002-01-22T22:04:23.000Z</updated>
287. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:15</id>
288. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>I'm sure that this is going to hit the tops of the charts on <a
289. href="http://www.daypop.com/top.htm">daypop</a>/<a
290. href="http://blogdex.media.mit.edu/">blogdex</a> shortly.&#160;
291. Seen on <a
292. href="http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/22/2129229&mode=thread&threshold=0">
293. slashdot</a>: AOL/TW files <a
294. href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20310-2002Jan22.html">
295. lawsuits</a> against Microsoft.&#160; More coverage <a
296. href="http://www.reuters.com/news_company.jhtml?storyid=NEWS.BW.20020122.2700&ticker=AOL&provider=bizwirenews">
297. here</a>, <a
298. href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-820227.html?legacy=cnet&tag=pt.rss..feed.ne_8564303">
299. here</a>, <a
300. href="http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/22/technology/netscape/index.htm">
301. here</a>, <a
302. href="http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2002/01/22/aol-microsoft.htm">
303. here</a>, and <a
304. href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/692302.asp">here</a>.&#160; Get
305. some popcorn, sit back, and watch the fireworks.  Me? 
306. I'm just a spectator... no way am I going to comment on this. <img alt=":-)"
307. src="http://static.userland.com/shortcuts/images/qbullets/sidesmiley.gif" /></div></div></content>
308. </entry>
309.  
310. <entry>
311. <title>null</title>
312. <link href="/blog/16.html"/>
313. <updated>2002-01-23T13:36:42.000Z</updated>
314. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:16</id>
315. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>Simon Fell <a
316. href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/weblog/index.html">says</a> that he
317. found the building and running of Axis to be pretty painless; What
318. more can a person ask for? <img alt=":-)"
319. src="http://static.userland.com/shortcuts/images/qbullets/sidesmiley.gif" />
320. He's looking to test out <a
321. href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP-attachments">SOAP Messages with
322. Attachments</a> support for interop with <a
323. href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/">pocketSOAP</a>.</p>
324.  
325. <p>Speaking of interop, it looks like I've not updates the <a
326. href="http://www.apache.org/~rubys/ApacheClientInterop.html">Apache
327. SOAP interop</a> test to run against the latest <a
328. href="http://www.pocketsoap.com/4s4c/">4s4c</a> endpoint and the
329. old endpoint has been removed.  Time to update the test script
330. and rerun...</p></div></content>
331. </entry>
332.  
333. <entry>
334. <title>null</title>
335. <link href="/blog/17.html"/>
336. <updated>2002-01-23T13:49:26.000Z</updated>
337. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:17</id>
338. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>What?&#160; Could there possibly be yet another <a
339. href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=101172261800690&w=2">
340. Apache SOAP implementation</a> looming in the near future?&#160; It
341. looks like HP is looking to donate a cousin to their <a
342. href="http://soap.bluestone.com/index.html">HP
343. SOAP</a>&#160;implementation to Apache.&#160; From what I can tell
344. so far, they have better integration with <a
345. href="http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/">Cocoon</a>, and weaker support
346. for things like <a
347. href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/#_Toc478383520">references to
348. values</a>.&#160; Looks like there might be&#160;a good possibility
349. for synergy...</p>
350.  
351. <p>I especially like the consise statement of their
352. requirements:</p>
353.  
354. <ul>
355. <li>Required use of existing standards rather than proprietary
356. solutions</li>
357.  
358. <li>Required flexibility and extensibility that allows
359. adding/removing stages of processing</li>
360.  
361. <li>Required Plug and Play support that enables the customization
362. of processing</li>
363. </ul></div></content>
364. </entry>
365.  
366. <entry>
367. <title>null</title>
368. <link href="/blog/18.html"/>
369. <updated>2002-01-23T14:43:24.000Z</updated>
370. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:18</id>
371. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><div>It looks like there is <a
372. href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=101171210929853&w=2">
373. motion</a> to resolve the <a
374. href="http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/proposal/mutant/">two</a>
375. <a
376. href="http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/proposal/myrmidon/">
377. proposals</a> vying for the title of the design for the next major
378. release of <a
379. href="http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/index.html">Ant</a>.&#160; I
380. gave some <a
381. href="http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/index.html">advice</a> on how
382. to resolve this, and made an <a
383. href="http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=101179450809353&w=2">
384. offer</a> of assistance.</div></div></content>
385. </entry>
386.  
387. <entry>
388. <title>null</title>
389. <link href="/blog/19.html"/>
390. <updated>2002-01-23T21:17:55.000Z</updated>
391. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:19</id>
392. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>Jon Udell&#160;<a
393. href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0100887/2002/01/22.html#a32">writes</a>:</p>
394.  
395. <blockquote><p><em>Richer
396. descriptions of messages, and tools that exploit those richer
397. descriptions, will make life even better for "mom" -- if this extra
398. sophistication doesn't gum up the works.</em></p>
399. <p><em>Is WSDL gum, or grease, or maybe a little of both?</em></p>
400. </blockquote>
401.  
402. <p>Answer: WSDL is a roadmap.&#160; Both gum
403. or grease need to actually touch the moving parts to have an
404. affect.  WSDL does neither.  Look at a SOAP message and
405. try to find the reference to the WSDL.  It isn't there. 
406. Never has been.&#160; Look at the <a
407. href="http://www.w3.org/TR/SOAP/">SOAP specification</a> and try to
408. find the&#160;reference to a WSDL.&#160; It isn't there either.</p>
409.  
410. <p><img height="148" class="floatright" alt="bridge"
411. src="http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/images/bridge.jpg" width="179"
412. />Look at a bridge.  Imagine the
413. architectural drawings that came first and greatly influenced the
414. construction.  Can you imagine a bridge of any significance
415. being built without a roadmap?</p>
416.  
417. <p>Many SOAP stacks these days come with
418. automatic roadmap dispensers.  Simply append a "?WSDL" to the
419. URL and out pops the description of the service.  Many alpha
420. males will tell you that they don't need to ask for
421. directions.  But I suspect that these roadmap dispensers will
422. be heavily used.</p></div></content>
423. </entry>
424.  
425. <entry>
426. <title>null</title>
427. <link href="/blog/20.html"/>
428. <updated>2002-01-24T01:36:03.000Z</updated>
429. <id>tag:intertwingly.net,2004:20</id>
430. <content type="xhtml"><div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><p>In response to <a
431. href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/2002/01/22.html#a14">this</a>,
432. <a href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0100864/">tav</a> writes:
433. <em>someone please tell sam that google has been doing this for a
434. long time now... i've noticed it on around 0.3% (totally random
435. number ;p) of google searches.</em>&#160; <strong>Got it,
436. thanks!</strong>&#160; Kinda freaked me out when I saw it, but as a
437. low frequency random sample kinds thing, it seems OK.</p></div></content>
438. </entry>
439. </feed>
440.  

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